“anything sincere, useful and good can be exploited and corrupted by charlatans”

Not only can it, it will be, and more personally, while we expend our energies looking for the charlatans without, –what about the charlatan within? We can strive to be ethical and caring, but we can also become weak, perhaps momentarily, and there you are out on a limb, exposed, and the mob just outside and inside wants their piece of flesh. It is not so much that it is done intentionally, but there exist lucani/holes I mean in each individual's experience, whether one is teacher or student.

“how to mitigate risk”

Well, in fact, I think we all try. We don't usually sign on for more than we can handle, unless of coarse we sign on naively or with bravado– like joining a military at war or a challenging spiritual/psychological coarse. The problem is that it is not a static thing– we can only see based on where we are at and that keeps shifting beneath us, again whether we are teacher or student.

Given the degree to which we admit our wrong doing we can work on our healing. I think this is also available to Ray, but he has to accept the responsibility and weave his sorrow and transformation humbly into the fabric of his life blanket. If he doesn't we now know him for who he is, and none of us would be willing to pay the price or accept the basic false bravado in his teachings. To not use this experience as a teaching moment for his own redemption would mean a total denigration of the experience and a waste of the lives given for him to have it (I only mean in terms of what the deaths could mean to/for him). As all things represent opportunity, to underscore a new age but also ancient point, so is this that, and thusly, represents and opportunity to see through his new age/ego driven/success-oriented macho flawed persona and change by dint of sorrow and deep efforts to understand and take responsibility to become a more authentic, heart-centered, deeply spiritual person, also flawed, but more wisely and consciously oriented.

how do we fine-tune our “picker outer”

Our “Picker outer” is informed by our experience and our intuition. It is not always correct, either, though one could say, “I avoided that event for some reason” and have that be good enough. But we could as easily be responding to our insecurity/fears which could prevent us from moving further down the line of our experience until much later. It is not a race, so likely this works out well, but still there are those who fear a great deal…….maybe for them, a fully dressed, lights on, sauna, with magazines strewn about, light talk allowed, underscoring the normalcy of it all– would be a place for them to start.

Sometimes we don't see a telltale flaw until down the road in our experience. We wouldn't have spotted this thing that bothers us about the teachings or the teacher until later. sometimes it is designed that way. All things have contradictions, and we wouldn't be able to handle them on the front end………so they come later. What looks like small, actually tiny print, becomes, down the road, very large print, which we sometimes can no longer over look. This happens with all our experience. There is no safe place to stand without safety becoming our primary mode of existing. so we proceed with caution, with one foot in the light and one foot in the dark, moving forward, feelingly.

Thanks for listening………..I think I have used up my nickle….

The experience you are talking about remains intact and is only accessible to a few or at least not the mass public.

The poem below was roughly created and recited grasping for words in the darkness of a sweatlodge run by a native elder.

Sweat Lodge Prayer
–For Ray with Gratitude

Oh Great Spirit
Divine life-long companion–

When I, When we wander
Into the wild wide world–

In the time it takes to duck a thunderclap
We may feel ourselves lost or disconnected

Our ears may fill with untruths
and misdirection suddenly deaf

And dumb our hearts may swell
With fear and doubt, dread and sorrow

Help me, Help us
To wipe the dust from our eyes

That we may see the markers
You have left for us to follow;

The bent and broken branches, the colorful
Thread of your unraveling blanket, a pile of

feathers the sudden scent of dead fish on a dirt path
The sound of your welcoming bird cries

The glow of your steps in the moonlight
The grumble of your low key prayers

And the shadow of your hand
Extending from an iridescent bush

Verily will we come to know
The shadow we were following

Was none other than our own fortified by
the subtle guidance of the divine…..
spinning the light and energy
before us.

copyright-Dennis DuBois 2008

This is a poem by Joy Harjo that comes in wisps as i have thought of the deaths and the family members that must be having such a difficult time understanding the event and aftermath. . i believe it was spoken for the Audre Lorde Memorial 1993. . . .

This prayer poem is aligned with the essence of the sacred sweat lodge . . . .

We gather up these strands broken from the web of life. They shiver with our love, as we call them the names of our relatives and carry them to our home made of the four directions.

Of the south, where we feasted and where given new clothes.

Of the west, were we gave up the best of us to the stars as food for the battle.

Of the north, where we cried because we where forsaken our dreams.

Of the east, because return to us is the spirit of all that we love.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar…

I don't know if it's possible to suss out the story of Ray without also looking at the broader cultural petri dish, especially since the themes of exploitation, victimization, culpability and personal responsibility seem to pop up repeatedly. And yet I think it's so ironic that what draws many people to New Age/New Thought type philosophies is the inherent notion of self-mastery — that if something isn't working in our life, we have more power to change that than we might have been brought up to believe. For those who felt wounded by traditional religion, or find it difficult to accept certain tenets or beliefs, it can feel empowering to subscribe to a philosophy of God as inclusive universal intelligence/energy, rather than God as Separate All-Powerful and Sometimes Capricious Being. It can feel incredibly empowering, whatever your creed, to undertake the kind of ruthless self-examination that moves us forward, whether that be facilitated with a book, therapist, 12-step program whatever the tool.

The irony though, is when the pursuit of self-mastery goes wonky, and someone ends up unwittingly transferring personal autonomy to somebody else in the shape of a channeler or guru or minister or even just another set of prescribed rituals, and nothing has really changed.

The market knows that there are millions who, for various reasons, would not attend an actual native Indian ritual, but they might attend if it could be marketed in another way. In a way the attendees want what the guru is selling: Success, instant optimism, painless growth, attend once and never have to attend again. The market is flooded with positive thinking (read Barbara Erenreich's new book debunking all this) sickness. Americans are particularly inundated and it has been documented elsewhere that we believe it is our right to be “happy” ….so if we are not, however momentarily, we will fix it anyway we can………drugs, drink, pharmaceuticals, sex with strangers, following gurus, etc.and yes………new age instant fixes. Dr. Phil is a fraud! You don't have to go to these exotic practices, the con men are in the SCIENCE too. It was the psychologists and the doctors that created and advised around the torture of hundreds of innocent people. Its the psychologists who advise the market people about how to make us want what they are selling, teaching us to be ashamed of our bodies, smells, etc.
The market doesn't care: its message is buy, buy, buy……so you can become, become……..who you are now not….It will market under the guise of science, secularity, religion..culture…. special groups– any way it can to try to reach each individual markets …….My mother used to buy day-glow plastic crucifixes.

So it is here where I begin to struggle with Leebots line of thought as a lot of different beliefs/approaches are thrown into the bag of charlatanism. Most spiritual paths are fraught with identity crisis and downright danger, even if you never leave your room. All require faith and perseverance. Fasting, sweating, retreating, being alone for extended periods/or thrown together to “polish the pearls,” as the saying goes. all are challenging and a part of many traditions. Even psychotherapy has an unequal power balance: expert/non expert or teacher/student or guru/novitiate, no matter how much the therapist is willing to undermine the imbalance it is still there. And the client too pulls to trust the therapist so they can be vulnerable, open up, and be supported as they venture into scary areas of their life story.

We all have shadow sides too, and the trickster is relentless, how conscious can you be and for how long at a stretch….and to what extent are you willing to take a risk? What if the risk is balanced by a promise of growth? We can become so risk adverse that we would find it difficult to take on the risk of being loved or loving another. There are likely very many very good shaman, gurus/teachers/psychotherapists/psychologist, etc– who are minimally well intentioned and still things go wrong.

To be clear I am not apologizing for Ray. I think what he did and continues to do is not representative of anything but the extent of his own lack of consciousness, and his efforts to minimize his losses with little understanding or expressed sorrow/regret for what he could have done differently. Said plainly, he is a chump and should be sent someplace to think about his role in these events; jail/retreat center/or counseling would be fine so long as he sequesters himself to acquire a deeper understanding. I am not so sure punishment is the answer, unless that would provide the necessary impetus of survival to help him to look inward.

…but you know he wasn't created in a vacuum…….there are many Rays out there and they represent a certain inauthenticy, a lack of personal ethics that we see is rampant in the culture at large. He must take on his personal responsibility but we must ask of our culture: What are the underpinnings of such an ethic? How does the culture at large help to create such a situation? What messages do we as a culture give to such “healers” and that they then attempt to market back to us what we are asking/looking for? Is the culture such that it reflects rampant inauthenticity/ethics violations? Think of Wall street, the banking crisis, the S&L crisis, torture, lies, lies, the poor state of journalism, hypocrisy in politics and religion, etc, I know this list wants to stay focused on Ray and his behavior, culpability, and his disassociation from actual events and responsibility. I have difficulty seeing Ray as a small player in a culture absorbed in individuality, success, and escape.

Sorry for cutting loose with babble……babble

Dr. E., yes — selling rather than teaching is a good yardstick, especially since in this day and age, marketing a spiritual package — even if it co-opts the rituals and traditions of another culture — is easily done. I've seen some very rich “channelers” who seemed nothing more than dreadful actors to me. Of course it doesn't preclude that a good snake oil salesman might actually be able to impart some wisdom (think Wizard of Oz). Perhaps another yardstick is when the teacher/guru/minister/priest displays a bit of unhealthy ego. I don't really know how to describe this, other than that the leader and certain followers seem to develop a unhealthy co-dependent relationship. The draw for the followers is not just the teachings or message, but the person, and even if the leader starts out with sincere intentions, that level of adulation could have a corrupting influence. Or maybe at some point the leader becomes convinced s/he is spiritually superior (or maybe just the opposite, feels like an imposter with nothing of true value to offer) and develops a sense of contempt for the seekers. What I'm reading here of Mr. Ray certainly sounds as though he displays contempt to those who don't fall into his line. NOT the spirit of “Namaste.”

I find the whole prosperity consciousness movement kind of icky. And I know positive thinking helps but there is an underbelly to it too I think. I know my husband and I have locked horns a few times since I became ill – as if it is somehow my attitude had some causation for this autosomal dominate genetic disorder LOL.

“Though the demonism of the Middle Ages seems to have disappeared, there is abundant evidence that in many forms of modern thought – especially the so-called “prosperity” psychology, “willpower-building” metaphysics, and systems of “high-pressure” salesmanship – black magic has merely passed through a metamorphosis, and although its name be changed its nature remains the same.”
- Manly P. Hall, Secret Teachings of All Ages, pp. 101-2

quote from one of Hill's disciples;
” From Hill's inspiring life I have gleaned another Law of Success: Don't waste your time chasing a rainbow. Package it and sell it to others. Then you'll find a pot of gold.” W. Clement Stone disciple of Napoleon Hill

. . .maybe so or maybe not. . . for me the wealth and prosperity gospels used in this vein to glorify the lower self are 'anti-christic', so far from the heart of man and even further from the heart of the sacred source. . .

Dr. E. i am sad but not surprised that other spiritual leaders cannot find voice on this one. . .

still thinking

I have some chagrin finding today that thus far the answer to your question “i wonder if anyone would have the courage it given the opportunity?” is a No. Or, a not yet. Or, a not interested other than gossip. Or, a dont care that much.

I am still thinking. Ghost's reports are giving more pause.

I am still stuck on the seeming lack of sorrow in those whom the press has detailed, or those who have reached to the internet to say their piece, Mr Ray in particular. I've read the last two posts on his blog several times and still keep thinking, but there's got to be more to say publicly. Much more. And why not. Why is there no more. I dont know yet, Sparrow.

NYPost:
Ray's past seminars are also peppered with horrific incidents, public records show, including:
* The July 2009 suicide of a Minnesota woman who jumped three floors to her death from a San Diego mall balcony.

* A May 2005 event at Disney World, where a New Jersey woman shattered her hand after Ray allegedly bullied her into performing a ritualistic board-breaking exercise

On July 25, just 10 weeks before the sweat-lodge deaths, Colleen Conaway, a typically cheerful 46-year-old from Minnesota, made her fatal plunge at the California mall.

Like the victims in Arizona, Conaway had no identification on her when she died, according to law enforcement.

After the jump, Ray and his staffers left the mall knowing that Conaway was missing from the group, according to authorities.

“I had just talked to her two days before, and she was still the sister I knew,” said Lynn.

“I can't even comprehend what changed, what went on in those two days that would cause her to do this.”

In the Disney World incident, a 2005 negligence lawsuit charged a “reckless” Ray pushed seminar attendee Diane Konopka to smash the board to “overcome . . . self-esteem issues.”

Repeatedly unsuccessful, the “humiliated” and “extremely exhausted” Konopka felt “she had no choice” but to do what Ray demanded, the suit says.

The guru settled in 2007 for an undisclosed sum.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mystic_pa…
——————————————————————-

I don't know if anyone else has thought it ..but I have.
What if he set this all up and wanted people to die.
People die but those followers keep paying the bucks to come and have the guy abuse them.
What a charge for the psychopathic/narcissistic ego AND he is GETTING away with it.
And no remorse. The guy could care less.

Check out psychopathic behavior at wiki:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/mystic_pa…

My two cents worth
Ghost

If this guru truly made the comment about those who died having made a “choice” — well, what an outrageous and convenient way for him to abdicate his own culpability in this horrid affair. I am ever more inclined to think of him as a charlatan, if he bestows upon himself a kind of supernatural ability to speak for those now beyond the veil, unable to testify otherwise.

No doubt people had “amazing” experiences, with their physical bodies in such a compromised state and the synapses firing like a pinball machine in FULL TILT. My guess is that the word “homicide” is being used as an umbrella term and is not necessarily meant to convey malevolent intention but could also cover negligence and extreme indifference. I will be watching to see what the law does in this case.

Dr E, I think your approach is beautiful so far and will crystallize for you as you continue to pray, to speak with experts, to ask for clarity. I think there is something here you can do and that will crystallize for you. Perhaps the key is to examine over-arching themes, and I think you're on to something with your words “superiority and inferiority complexes actually share a common wall; that if one rumbles, the other one starts to smoke too.” Understanding what happened at this sweat lodge could be the theme of a book in terms of understanding the whole psychology. Some random free-floating thoughts of my own:

* Cultural Misappropriation. This theme looms large for a couple of my friends — one of whom has Native American ties, another of a different minority culture, who feels that their own honored traditions are misappropriated and commercially “marketed.” No doubt they would see a certain karmic irony in this sweat lodge incident. And there are numerous other cautionary tales of “Man Pushing Limits With Tragic Results” — Timothy Treadwell eaten by the grizzlies with whom he felt a spiritual bond and perhaps, sense of mastery over . . . . Christopher McCandless who jumped headfirst and woefully unprepared into a solitary wilderness experience without an adequate and proper regard for just what he'd be up against?

* Tearing Down to Build Up. I'm reminded of the popularity of the Erhard EST seminars back in the 1970s, and the questionable tactics used there too. Why do some of us feel that the breaking down of the self is required in order to re-build on our quest for personal and spiritual growth? I think there is a social construct that says we must be tolerant and respectful of the religion and spiritual traditions of others — but then that paradigm allows us to shy away from criticizing where certain practices end up exploiting and abusing others. I understand spiritual hunger, I understand seeking, but yes, it's easy to cross a line when it comes to notions of faith, surrender, challenging ourselves, risk-taking, pushing past boundaries. Some boundaries are actually good things, especially when it comes to trusting our own instincts rather than surrendering those to some charismatic charlatan. I heard a remarkable lecture by a priest in Denver many years ago; his name may have been Angelo or Angelus. His critiqued Catholic Church doctrine and liturgical tradition as too patriarchal and out of balance – that the feminine, the Mother, the right brain aspect of intuition, dream time — was not given its proper place. I sense that lack of balance in this situation — why is this guru “playing God” both metaphorically and literally?

* They call it “Spiritual Practice” for a reason. It takes a lot of practice. Do we, in our society of instant gratification and consumerism, come to think of spiritual and personal growth as a commodity that can be neatly packaged and marketed? That the $9,000 Cadillac Package will yield more bang for the buck in terms of quick return on the investment. Spirituality as Extreme Sport? Bigger and Better Insights? Not that light-bulb moments don't happen — of course they do — but what is wrong with slow and incremental changes? I'm not trying to criticize Sweat Lodges as purification or the inherent value of that ritual when done properly, but rather the larger theme of punishing the body in such extreme ways as a path to Enlightenment? I confess I don't get it, and am thinking that finding a deserving cause to endow with $9,000 could be a safer and more satisfying way to grow spiritually.

I don't want this to become any lengthier than it is already so I'll stop here, but clearly this brings up a lot of stuff.