My point (or one of them) is simply that, when push comes to shove, women aren't going back. We just aren't. We remember too well what it was like for women pre-Roe v. Wade, and we ain't goin' there again. And I do also believe that anti-choicers will not be able, in the final analysis, to re-criminalize abortion without triggering a backlash. Legal abortion may be a hotly contested issue, and Congress can pretend that abortion is not a health issue and they can make it even harder for poor women and other vulnerable groups, like teenagers, to get abortions, but I don't believe Roe v. Wade will be reversed or that abortion will become illegal again.

And btw, I forgot to point this out, and I wasn't going to post again just to point this one thing out, but since you mention the CNN article and bring the subject up again, I was struck by this quote:

“This is great news. This poll shows that the pro-life movement is winning hearts and minds. Pro-lifers are making an effective case that all women deserve better than abortion and that every child deserves a chance to be born,” said Cathy Ruse, the senior fellow for legal studies at the anti-abortion Family Research Council in Washington.

The paternalistic, infantilizing “women deserve better than abortion” is obviously incredibly offensive, but for right now I want to focus on the second part of Ruse's assertion: “Every child deserves a chance to be born.”

I thought that line was extremely revealing. “Every child deserves a chance to be born. A chance to be born. That's it. Not “Every child deserves to be wanted and loved.” Not “Every child deserves to have a healthy start in life.” Not “Every child deserves at least the possibility of living past the first few days, weeks, or months of life.” Not “Every child deserves to have a mother who survives the child's birth or whose health is not seriously damaged by the child's birth.” Not any one of hundreds of rights that every child is owed for being brought into the world with no choice in the matter.

No, the right that Ruse sees as supreme is the right to have a chance to be born. If the baby is stillborn, justice has been done because the baby still had a chance to be born. If the baby dies hours after birth, and the mother's health is destroyed by a pregnancy that was doomed from the outset, justice has been served because the baby had “a chance to be born.” If the baby never gets to eat solid foods, sit up, crawl, or walk; can't eliminate on her own, can't move a single muscle, can't talk; can't show recognition of anything around her; has to be on medication to prevent devastating seizures that turn her face blue; has to be fed intravenously almost from birth; cannot cough or sneeze and so has to be aspirated regularly so the fluids that build up in her lungs don't choke her to death; and if that child dies at the age of 3 never having actually lived in any meaningful sense of that word — by golly, Redbus, justice has been served, because that child had the chance to be born.

I introduced an off-topic post about abortion on this thread since an important new poll by Pew Research showed a remarkable swing in public opinion on the issue even since last April. Strangely, nothing had yet appeared on TMV about this. Besides the CNN.com post that I linked above, here's are two paragraphs from a Dan Gligoff article appearing in the (subscription only) digital edition of the Oct 2 U.S. New and World Report:

Abortion rights supporters, meanwhile, are much less concerned about the issue than they were under George W. Bush. A third of liberal Democrats cited abortion as a critical issue in 2006,
while just 8 percent do now, according to Pew. With an ally in the White House, Pew’s Smith says abortion rights supporters are “more relaxed.” That’s bad news for abortion rights
groups, who are now fighting to keep abortion coverage in the proposed healthcare reform plans.

In a sign that the president may be willing to compromise on the issue, he recently called
Michigan Rep. Bart Stupak, who’s leading an effort among antiabortion Democrats to strengthen the ban on government-funded abortion in healthcare reform. This week, Stupak finally secured a meeting with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi after months of trying. It looks as if the Democratic Party may be
shifting on abortion, too.

So you and I can retread all the old abortion arguments in replies to each other, and I doubt we'll make much headway. On the other hand, this poll appears to indicate that our already-got-my-mind-made-up conversation may not be typical. There may be a genuine public shift on the issue and – if there is – that will have electoral ramifications. If it's a lasting trend, it's bound to increase the power of the anti-abortion contingent of the Democratic Party.

Color me a Bart Stupak Democrat!

I was, however, present near, if not at, the creation.

Thank you, StockBoy. And I feel that thank you much more deeply than I can say in words.

Well said, StockBoy. I would add that there are also women who end pregnancies that were wanted — devoutly, deeply, desperately wanted. That is one of the reasons I say that those opponents of abortion who pretend to know why any woman — much less most women — have abortions are thinking in ways that are quite mistaken.

Do I get a gold star for self-control?

Merkin Muffley was the President in the movie, one of three roles played by Peter Sellers. The character's name is the best ever in a movie. Merkin is British slang for American (the movie was a joint British-American production). It is also a toupee for a woman's, how can I be delicate about this, pubic area, therefore the pussy reference (sorry). Muffley is, I believe, self-explanatory.

President Muffley was a wimp, milqtoast.

Thank you for your post. I enjoy the site.

Furthermore, those people (of whom there are unfortunately too many) who think they know why any given woman has an abortion, or who believe that there is a way to authoritatively quantify the reasons and motivations for the choices of 95% — or any percentage — of women who choose to have an abortion, are, to put it in a way that won't get me in trouble, making assertions that are foolish, uninformed, and presumptuous.

Public support for abortion will continue to fluctuate, but a woman's absolute right to have an abortion if she so chooses is irrevocable. No law will change that.

It is hard to imagine that anyone could spend half of a speech ranting about the need to keep the government out of the doctor patient relationship and then spend the rest of the speech advocating placing the government between doctors and patients concerning abortions.

It is hard to imagine anyone believing that re-criminalizing abortion will end it. There were 250,000 abortions a year when they were illegal. This doesn't include the “Catholic abortions”, D&Cs so popular with the middle class. Nor does count the number of trips to foreign countries for an abortion (We can go shopping in the afternoon!) that was the preferred method of the wealthy.

It is hard to imagine anyone who believes you can substantially reduce the number of abortions without properly educating people about sex and utilizing contraception.

Abortion, the issue that just keeps giving and giving.

I'm 59, but the only Peter Sellers movie I ever saw was “What's New, Pussycat?” and all I can remember from it is the first line of the song, “What's new, pussycat, oooooohhhh!” LOL

Besides I love Peter Sellers and Dr. Strangelove. For someone of my age (58) it was our first, great black comedy.

Well, it's been around since they were horribly common. Take a look at what's going on in Nicaragua if you want to see what outlawing abortion looks like on a practical level. They estimate that it caused the death of roughly 10,000 women in the last year.

then: “Note that votes recently by the Dims…”

Maturity level? Ummm…yeah.

MLH Radio, don't ignorantly or dishonestly reverse the truth about the left-right dichotomy.

Red Bus: Most people aren't febrile radical abortion-”rights” absolutists who include demanding the federal government provide (taxpayer-paid) abortions. Only the extreme lunatic fringe believe these are true and should never be questioned or in any way compromised. Note that votes recently by the Dims over abortion and immigration exposed the nuttier farther-left nature of too many of them — bad PR among good people!

I agree with your assessment of how the GOP has played the abortion issue across the years. This is nothing new, really. Even the esteemed Ronald Reagan would only talk to the annual pro-life demonstrators on the Mall in Washington via audio hook-up. He never appeared in-person. Why not? I'm not sure the Dems ultimately will do any better. They certainly have pro-choice planks in their platform, but there are some encouraging signs that the party's openness to the pro-life position is growing.

StockBoy SF:

The line about “back alley abortions” has been around…how many decades now? There's some truth to it. Women do die from botched abortions in countries that outlaw the procedure, as some women die from abortions in countries that allow it. But when you're talking 1.1 million abortions annually in the U.S., this is not “rare,” despite rhetoric to the contrary.

Wiser Republicans realize that crazies like Bachmann are dinosaurs hurting their bottom line.

I didn't realize that people became pregnant with the intention of killing. All sorts of things cause pregnancies which might lead people to seek out an abortion: mistakes happen, people use bad judgement, criminal acts (rape), complications with pregnancy, broken rubbers, etc.

Obama has said we should strive to reduce the number of abortions and put programs in place to encourage people to keep their kids. I support that. Throughout the ages people have always had abortions at great risk to themselves. As a society we should do what we can to support women who have children. But we should also offer abortion services to those who seek abortions. If we don't offer those services they'll probably try the old coat hanger method and kill themselves in the process. It must be very difficult for a woman to decide to have an abortion and making them illegal won't make abortions go away. I'm anti-abortion personally, but I also believe that it's up to the woman and whoever else she chooses to involve. What works for me doesn't work for others in different circumstances.

Bachman is a loony.

LOL

Good news, though. Glad people are finally realizing that it's more responsible to use a rubber than to kill.

Completely off-topic…

Did you see the story on CNN.com this morning regarding the shift in public attitudes regarding abortion? You can read it here:

Abortion support falls sharply

As a conservative Democrat who opposes abortion, I hope my party will take note of this important development.