I don't recall Michael Moore stating the USA caused 9-11 but hundreds of
other responsible journalists have. The government aided and abetted it
happening by its despicable foreign policy and then again by falling
asleep to all the warning signs of which there were many and to date,
most agree the report by the 9-11 committee is a white wash. It is
hardly and open shut case. As for Moore's movie “Sicko” it was fact
checked and CNN with Gupta's gotcha interview was proven wrong. Even
the current healthcare whistle blower tells us the Corporate Healthcare
industry was preparing for Moore's film months/years ahead. They could
not refute him on the facts, and the plan as revealed by the whisle
blower was to attack the messinger……………..so we get the fat ass
Moore the liberal communist crapola…………….the guys a hero.

Corporations are the devil now, and the greed associated with unbridled
capitalism, deregulation, is destroying the moral fiber of the country
and contributing to the demise of Democracy. What's more it is so
entrenched as to be nearly inextricable from what used to be
government. Unless we force the airways to allow politicians time and
other things that would subsidize our elections (oops, another big
government function) to make sure are elections are fair, honest, and
not bought up or stolen by computers owned by corporations that support
primarily Repubs.

I guess I makes no difference to me whether it is fed or state or local
government who funds these programs…..??????? who cares? So long
as they get funded. Our education is a failure. And I did say how a
country should be judged………….. and by all marks the USA,
regardless if you use local, state, or federal statistics, falls to
incredibly low levels for a nation as wealthy as ours. WHY? why does
nearly ever other first world nation do it better? Is there nothing to
learn from them.

Lastly thanks for the discussion, it has been respectful, especially
from your end. I am going to let this go……….the cow has no more
milk to give……anyhow you don't have to feel I am getting the last
word. write again if you like, but i likely won't respond. Have a good
one………

You and I agreed wholeheartedly until the Michael Moore mention.
You asked me not to bad mouth him, so I won't. He apparently believes deeply in what he puts in his films. However, when he blames our government directly for 9/11, he lost all credibility in my eyes.

orporations are not the devil by association. They've become the devil after years of unchecked power and untold government payoffs through lobbyists. Unchecked corporatism is just as bad as unchecked federal power IMO.

But if you go back to the Jefferson/Madison struggle, it remains today. It's what you and I are basically quibbling over. I'm a Jeffesonian and you seem to be more of a Madisonion. It's the general approach to government's role. This goes back to even Machiavelli and Plato, but we'll just stick to the gang that framed our Constitution. Jefferson believed in a minimal Federal presence with more power to the states (as do I). Madison believed in a more centralized base of power within the federal government (that may be you).

The single payer system, to me, is an example of government replacing an industry for services. It is not the government's place to keep me healthy or to provide me medicine. Whomever first proposed that they are, was wrong. Presently the other insurance systems (auto, life, etc) are regulated by the states, why not health insurance? What makes health insurance special?

As far as education and social security are concerned….
Education, too, should be regulated ONLY at the state level. Schools and education should be specific to each community, not a standard set by the federal government.
Social Security should also be handled at the state level. However, I've got no problem with any of my taxes (state or federal) going for that purpose.

As you said before (I think)…. a nation is judged on how their children and elderly are treated. Right?

This is the role of government. It isn't “socialism” per say, it is the
caretaking of our own people. Refining or returning our constitution
and our democracy to be more representative of the people is a fine fine
goal and necessary especially given how far it has fallen from grace.
WE are a rogue nation. But that has nothing to do with our financial
system. We are capitalists…….but the pact was never that
corporations and their lobbyists legislate the country in their own
behalf, leaving the people out of the equation. If the people have no
stake and the government exists as an entity that either does nothing
for them or intrudes in their lives (spying, wire taping, militarized
police) than we have become a banana republic. Democracy and
constitution in name only………..”hollowed out” as one writer put
it. They are already asking “what comes AFTER democracy?”

Michael Moore's new film will address what went wrong with capitalism,
unbridled and predatory, eating its own tail will fail as badly as
communism. There is a need for government to protect itself and the
people, and it was in place until, beginning with Reagan, than Clinton
in bed with corporations, and then Bush gave away the store. And please
don't bad mouth the guy. If you fact check his films, he is factually
correct on nearly all points. Look you can go right to the issue of the
day: healthcare. 80% last I read want the public option, actually want
single payer which has been proven all over the world to be the best
system (there is no perfect system). Who of their representatives would
take up the cause. The ignorant talking points of the Repubs about big
government have made them useless, a contrarian party, the party of no.
Blue dog Dems, on the corporate payroll. Baucus wouldn't even put
single payer on the table. Even Obama would not support it. Yet anyone
who has looked out their window knows that other 1st world governments
are democratic and have single payer. And if you see the world a bit,
travel I mean, and you happen to get sick or have an accident, many of
them will treat you FOR FREE, or help you to be well enough to get home.

This is the underlying cause of why people don't vote…………it
makes no difference, elephant or donkey, if they both basically
represent the corporations. The bank bailout: Corporate welfare– BIG
government bailing out the corporations. Its a bad joke. I want to
say: WAKE UP! WAKE UP!

The cure to this problem is to return to our Constitutional roots, not to discard it and start anew with socialism and bigger government. If we followed our Constitution, instead of veering from it over 80 years ago (that's when it started); we would not be in the mess that we're in now, nor would we be seen as the “evil Americans” throughout the world.
If the Dems and GOP disagree on which direction to take the country, that's fine. But both MUST work within the original confines of the Constitution.
That's my point. I'm pretty sure you would agree with that statement.

The cure to this problem is to return to our Constitutional roots, not to discard it and start anew with socialism and bigger government. If we followed our Constitution, instead of veering from it over 80 years ago (that's when it started); we would not be in the mess that we're in now, nor would we be seen as the “evil Americans” throughout the world.
If the Dems and GOP disagree on which direction to take the country, that's fine. But both MUST work within the original confines of the Constitution.
That's my point. I'm pretty sure you would agree with that statement.

Looks like you drank the cool aide as it regards socialism. There are
plenty of other quotes even from presidents as well as scholars. What
about he one that speaks to societies being judged by how we took care
of our young, our old, and our infirm– the weakest among us.

I agree with many of your assertions. But socialism is not a cure for anything other than ingenuity and personal profit (not corporate). When you take something away from someone to give to another (unearned) you do not better the system.

“To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.'”
– Thomas Jefferson

And South America. Oh, for the Southern Cone to fall into his sway…

Don't forget the more direct, hands-on threat of a revived “Gran Colombia.” (including Panama, as formerly part of Colombia — at least, Darien). Bolivar is more than a metaphor regarding this threat.

The problem is that we ethnocentric Americans think we have a handle on
the truth……….we don't. And the American people have been lied to
time and again about the reason to sends its young to slaughter. Because
of their lack of fear, Europeans enjoy a much higher life style. And it
isn't pure socialism but a blend.

To talk about Chavez and Admaj. in the way you do is to presuppose that
everything we do is better. It is a little bit like what we did to the
American Indian, and the slaves, why those crazy pagan savages — they
are less than human aren't they? THEY have conservative and militant
radicals………….don't we? There are many faiths in the world, why
demonize Muslims? The Indians too, realized America wasn't satisfied
with just some of the land, (manifest destiny and all that), and
eventually fought back, tragically too late and were slaughtered. Now
they live in ever shrinking reservations that we try to take back every
time we discover something of value exists there. Why should South
America or the Middle East make treaties that help themselves and their
neighbors. Is that not WE want to do (Nafta), etc. It means giving up
the advantage of Empire, the preferred deals, — they are finding better
deals among themselves, with less hidden attachments, and less
interest……….instead of the IMF deals that were cut in the past.

As I understand it, despite imperfections and problems, Venezuela and
Iran are functioning democracies who may have some unhappy constituents
but life is still good. These are not backwater despotic dictatorial
countries. They are modern, educated and diverse societies who love
their children as much as we love ours. They unhappy people in
Venezuela are the rich, corporate folk who have lost their hold on the
engines of profit……….they have to share it now with their
countryman. And because they have profited for so long with nary a
thought to their countrymen ………….they are unhappy, they want
things to go back the way they were. Same in Honduras.

We need a little socialism in the USA, if socialism means stopping being
the narcississtic-rugged-cowboy-hyper-independent- go-
it-alone-fudge-everybody-else-what's-in-it-for-me, well than I am all
for it. If it means legislating mutual care for all, even at the
expense of highter taxes, I”M All for it. Why wouldn't we be?

The problem I have with the Chavez/Ahmadenijad types is that they are attempting the same thing on the marxist/fundamentalist (respectively) front. If left unchecked, all of Central America would become the “Union of Soviet Central American States” with Chavez at the helm. He's made statements like that before and puts his nation's oil wealth up to bankroll leftist revolutionary groups in just about every Latin American country. We could do nothing and keep our noses out of it. But should we?

Like you, I have a problem with our CIA funding illegal and covert coups or assassinations. That's wrong.
But to do the same as Chavez to keep him in check is not. The same goes for Ahmadenijad. He wants to bring his “world” into a Islamic Caliphate. To hellp acheive this goal, he wants nukes to back him up – as do the Mullahs and Ayahtollas. For both Chavez and Ahmadenijad, they want to expand their influence beyond their “elected responsibilities” to their people. Yes, America does the same, but it is a defensive mechanism in some cases (note, SOME).

You are correct about the corporate economies. Capitalism at the mom-and-pop level is amazing. Corporate capitalism is nasty at best. When corporations get political power, they overstep their bounds. Just as when labor unions and special interest groups overstep theirs when they get political power. Both private enterprise and labor organizations are best when they are loaclized.

It's just like with politics. I'm a democrat. Here in my state, that's not a bad thing. But when compared to the liberal scum DNC types in Washington, I'm Rush Limbaugh. If we only had a way to reign-in the power back to the people, and wrestle it away from the Parties, Corporations, and special interest; our Constitutional Democracy would much more resemble the Nation that the founding fathers envisioned.

Venezuela is a democratic nation as are most of those countries in Latin
America. They elected Chavez. He is a lot like Admajinajad in the
sense that he is ganged up on by mass media, and the corporations in
Venezuela are working day and night to overtake him. their have been
multiple assassination attempts where American involvement has been
proven. We send weapons, money, and strategy (and no one in the world
is better than us at undermining and defeating governments) to support
the corporations (American interests) who didn't like that Chavez won
and spread the oil wealth among his people. Why, it is downright
un-capitalistic. That must mean we have to wake up the American
public. Let's feed them FEAR of communism…………COMMUNISM is
coming……..hide your children. This has happened in so many
countries it is too numerable to mention. That is why The Latin
countries are rejecting the liberal doctrines of old. It was supposed
to trickle down. It didn't. Decades went by. A small group of people
made out like bandits. The population at large starved. I don't know
about a Bolshevik but a Bolavarian Revolution has been underway for at
least a decade now. There are at least 10 Latin American countries
involved, including Honduras, which existed as an American protectorate,
flooded with American money and corporations (problem is workers were
still being paid poverty wages) until the corporations and the military
joined forces for the coup currently in place.

On a smaller scale it is happening right here in the good ol USA. We
are not the World's beacon for freedom. We are an oligarchy with
fascist shadings and rapidly becoming a militarized zone. The press at
large are not independent………. Protest is forbidden and must be
monitored obsessively. The cops love to do crowd control and in many
many cases create the havoc they are supposed to protect us from. Every
police department now has an arsenal of weapons they must use: tasers,
smoke, tear gas, clubbing, rubber bullets, pepper spray. It is as if we
are becoming Palestinians. If they subjectively decide they can't
control you or if they get up on the wrong side of the
bed………..expect the worse. Only the bravest hit the street
(protest in its vibrant meaningful form is dead) and the cops don't care
if you are independent press they will arrest. Hell, they will kill
you, if you are not embedded.

As far as Jews go, I grew up beside them, have loved many, and many of
them are sick in their hearts with what Israel is doing with the legacy
of the holocaust. If you are remotely fair-minded and can get past the
rubbish printed in the mass media, you would be flummoxed too. They
create organizations to fight AIPAC, and some of them write books and
are unfairly fired by academia, denied tenure– WHY? because they spoke
out. Look at Venunu, the Israeli activist who has been in jail for the
past 30 years on and off. What did he do?. He just refuses to shut up
and continues to tell the world that Israel has nuclear weapons. He has
no state secrets. Essentially he is jailed because he draws negative
attention to Israel. He exposed it to start, and has been unrepentant
and unrelenting in in continuing to expose it. He does this for
us…….for the future of the planet. Why else?

These guys, Admajinajad/Chavez/Castro may not be the most personable
characters. They are steeped in their own cultures. They don't act
like Americans. Don't talk like Americans. They are not as brainwashed
as most Americans. They rightly represent their own people, their
interests. I would prefer the actual work that they with some rough
edges to the variety of wealthy old white men we tend to put in office.
Hell Bush was a child on the scale of maturity with his silver spoon
still hanging out of the slit in his silk diapers and his real man
cowboy crap.

I am not an isolationist per say, but I think if we don't turn back to
ourselves and try to heal our nation, stop frightening everyone with
fear and bogeymen stories, and look at who we are becoming (have
become)……….if not, I fear we are lost, a rogue empire out there
acting like a sociopath, cowardly using drones to blow up wedding
parties in middle eastern countries. Our main export is WMD,
intelligence, bombs, in a word, terror– hell the selling of weapons
both at home and abroad, to both friends and enemies speaks to the total
taking over of our government by the military industrial
complex……….Eisenhower warned us so much about.

My apologies for the rant……….though I do feel a little better.

I know that we have those kind of activities going on. The CIA can get pretty nasty, but it's a nasty world out there. I know we support coups. We have our noses in everyone's business, that's true.
It's the state of the world after the cold war. However, if you think Chavez and his gang isn't bankrolling leftist revolutionaries as well, then your point is one-sided. What should we do? Just allow Chavez to stage his own Bolshevik revolution in Central America?

As far as Israel, I agree. I'm not the biggest fan of that nation. They are great people. I've been there. But the assertion that they “belong” there by act of God goes against even their own belief system. Do they have a right to exist? Yes. Did they have the right to kick the Palestinians out to put them there? No.

I disagree that we did not belong in Afghanistan. The Taliban bankrolled the attacks, we reciprocated. Iraq is a different story, and that's been talked to death so I won't elaborate here.