For me, it's all about forgive but don't forget. So while I — like others here — do certainly forgive you, and am grateful for the apology, I'm going to have a hard time believing that your opinions on anything involving women's rights are driven by sound logical policy considerations.

Leonidas, While I think this was a valiant effort at an apology, I'm much more offended by the idea that women are sluts who need to be punished for having sex than the tone in which you said it. Vulgarity doesn't necessarily get under my skin; being thought of as less-than or unworthy of the same rights men enjoy most certainly does.

Again apologies for the tone, but that was not the thought I was trying to convey. I was trying to suggest (and did a horrible job at doing so) the idea that companies or other insurers should not be forced into providing maturnity coverage for no additional charge to the premium. I am not oppossed to maturnity care being covered with an additional premium. I feel that without this extra premium, this drives up the cost of insurance for both men and women who do not chose to have children. I do not see forcing this as only benefitting mothers but also fathers at the expense of those not having children. I am not opposed to companies and private insurers voluntarily offering coverage at no additional costs, they are free to run their business as they best see fit. I'm just against forcing it. I don't want to rehash this as and I'm not going to pursue it further, but that idea (as stupid as it may be) is what I was trying to express. I wont discuss this any further as enough damage has been done so to speak, I will only issue apologies from here on out. Again it was poorly and crudely expressed and I am deeply sorry.

Don't be too hard on yourself. . .

Appreciate the sentiment, but my fear is actually the opposite that I will not be hard enough on myself. Honest introspection is called for, its too easy to make excuses for letting ourselves off. I pride myself on taking personal responsibility and I was a hypocrite and did not think to take responsibility for my posting tone until after the fact. This self-proclaimed “self-responsible” person needed the help of others to see his error. Hardly self-responsible, LOL.

I do appreciate the guidance however for you all. It speaks well of you.

You asked for further comment on what remains of your remarks. Said in a calm and constructive manner: your first comment still includes the phrase “tough ladies” and the sentence that follows talks about taking responsibility for the decision to have sex only in the context of women. You might want to think about those parts of that comment.

I actually did want to edit that as well, but there was no edit button at the bottom of that post so was unable to. I would like to edit that if the button should reappear as an option. I hope that explains the lack.

Not being a woman, it is not my place to accept or not accept your apology. I do however acknowledge that you took responsibility, aplogized and took some corrective action.

You asked for further comment on what remains of your remarks. Said in a calm and constructive manner: your first comment still includes the phrase “tough ladies” and the sentence that follows talks about taking responsibility for the decision to have sex only in the context of women. You might want to think about those parts of that comment.

Leonidas, two times in three days on different threads I have called you out for making radical comments. Please give that some thought and ask if that is really where you want to be, or at least whether that is how you want to be viewed. A more measured approach, consistently and over a period of time, may get you past this, but continued resorts to radicalism will only cement the impressions left by what happened here. Think about it, please.

tidbits

I hereby offer a formal apology for the tone of my post. It is an area which I have some strong feelings about but that does not excuse the tone of my comments. They were more controversial than need be and I didn't think them through nearly so much as I should have. I hope not to repeat such an action, and I have gone back and edited my comments (apologies again if I missed something that also should have been removed) If I should you have every right to call me on it and I appreciate you doing so. It helps to make me a better person.

I don't think I'm a bad person, I do think I feel strongly on the issue and let my passion intrude upon my manners. I hope you will accept the apology, but I can understand if you don't. I do not ask you to excuse my words, you certainly should not, that is something only future more controlled comments will suffice for and hopefully show that that I am indeed sorry for this episode.

“Maternity care is a lame item. Yes women will get all upset about it, but tough ladies. If your going to have a baby and be a responsible parent, you should think about providing for the result of your decision to have sex. Your company or the taxpayer should not be responsible for paying for that decision, you should be. If you can't do this, you have no business raising a child. In the case of rape, however, I'm not opossed as it was not your decision that got you pregnant. Own up to your own responsibility. .”

Truly this is an incredulous comment . . .you make the issue of pregnancy about women. . .have you forgotten that having babies involves as many men as women?. . .

Leonidas it appears you have hastily speed over false ground on this issue and the mental engine has out distanced both the heart and soul. . . .just a suggestion. . . ask the question; where is my heart and where is my soul on this issue. . .and when you have learned to respect your heart you will find respect. . .

Leonidas if you want women to own up to our responsibility, then would it be fair to ask you to be integral to your own being? (speaking this with a soft voice)

Leonidas you might consider an apology ? You think?

EDIT: Yeah, I can finally post. I'm curious, what does a “point” mean? I had zero comments but one point.

You have completely exposed your true, inner selves for all to see. And, fellas, it ain't pretty.

In one fell swoop you have both managed, with typical boorishness and disregard for the rest of the human race, to peel back the thin veneer of rationality in which you couch your thoughts on this board.

To the people of good faith who still reside here and feel it to be a place worthy of precious time: ignore these buffoons. They have definitively shown themselves to be unworthy of debate, reasoned argument or human interaction.

roro80 wrote: “Unfortunately, it's not an uncommon feeling among men that women should be punished for having sex by having every one of their options taken away…”

It's obvious that there are some men that feel this way, we've certainly been exposed to it in this thread, but I don't think it's a common attitude… At least I hope not because it's hateful, harmful and just plain stupid.

Leo is in no way, has never been, extreme. That is a fact

Neither you nor Leonidas have a very tight grasp on the concept of what a fact is. Facts are not an internal phenomenon, they're external and outside of your (and my) control.

From your comment the “facts” being discussed in this thread have obviously gone way over your head and therefore you just reverted (as usual) to a three post disjointed, disconnected tirade that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

Unfortunately, it's not an uncommon feeling among men that women should be punished for having sex by having every one of their options taken away, while also being given a million daily clues that they are worthy only for how they can please a man. Those who have pathological hate for women don't think women should have the option of birth control, abortion, and now, evidently, they don't even want them to have the ability to correctly care for themselves or the child in the womb. So while I do think that it's extreme to have such a disgust for the humanity of half the population, it's not necessarily uncommon among the other half.