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	<title>Comments on: Progressives are Killing Obama&#8217;s Presidency</title>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212855</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212855</guid>
		<description>&quot;We do not need to usurp the legislative function, but we also should not deny the leadership role of the president in pushing legislation forward.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Fusion of powers&quot; has periodically been considered by people dissatisfied with &quot;divided government,&quot; which was exemplified by liberal and Democratic frustration with having a Republican in the White House in the 1980s who wasn&#039;t acting as if he were another of the Congressional Democrats.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Such &quot;fusion of powers&quot; was addressed, for example, in Sundquist&#039;s work.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;[Note: &quot;Fostering Inter[-B]ranch Collaboration&quot;: &quot;Modifying the Separation of Powers&quot;]&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=K7yvhNxY0DkC&amp;dq=%2522constitutional+reform+and+effective+government%2522&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=uf7vCDkDnf&amp;sig=zN3v1Tfg0SQQNpk9gPm4-WMEoLw&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=5hCoSo-mFZO8MPKM6aUI&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=1#v=onepage&amp;q=&amp;f=false&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://books.google.com/books?id=K7yvhNxY0DkC&amp;d...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Concern about FDR&#039;s overreach (the motive for the original edition of the book) and later, about the Watergate affair with Nixon (the motive for a new edition and new remarks in the book) led to the writing of a book advocating a change to a parliamentary system of government:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/new-Constitution-now-Henry-Hazlitt/dp/0870002775&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.amazon.com/new-Constitution-now-Henr...&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We do not need to usurp the legislative function, but we also should not deny the leadership role of the president in pushing legislation forward.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Fusion of powers&#8221; has periodically been considered by people dissatisfied with &#8220;divided government,&#8221; which was exemplified by liberal and Democratic frustration with having a Republican in the White House in the 1980s who wasn&#39;t acting as if he were another of the Congressional Democrats.</p>
<p>Such &#8220;fusion of powers&#8221; was addressed, for example, in Sundquist&#39;s work.</p>
<p>[Note: "Fostering Inter[-B]ranch Collaboration&#8221;: &#8220;Modifying the Separation of Powers&#8221;]</p>
<p><a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=K7yvhNxY0DkC&#038;dq=%2522constitutional+reform+and+effective+government%2522&#038;printsec=frontcover&#038;source=bl&#038;ots=uf7vCDkDnf&#038;sig=zN3v1Tfg0SQQNpk9gPm4-WMEoLw&#038;hl=en&#038;ei=5hCoSo-mFZO8MPKM6aUI&#038;sa=X&#038;oi=book_result&#038;ct=result&#038;resnum=1#v=onepage&#038;q=&#038;f=false" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/books?id=K7yvhNxY0DkC&#038;d&#8230;</a></p>
<p>Concern about FDR&#39;s overreach (the motive for the original edition of the book) and later, about the Watergate affair with Nixon (the motive for a new edition and new remarks in the book) led to the writing of a book advocating a change to a parliamentary system of government:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/new-Constitution-now-Henry-Hazlitt/dp/0870002775" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/new-Constitution-now-Henr&#8230;</a></p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212834</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212834</guid>
		<description>&quot;standing up to a Congress led by the progressive wing&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What&#039;s hurting Obama separately and additionally is that he is siding with these people, as well as being subject to tarnishing of the embarrassment and disgrace related to the Van Jones exposure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;standing up to a Congress led by the progressive wing&#8221;</p>
<p>What&#39;s hurting Obama separately and additionally is that he is siding with these people, as well as being subject to tarnishing of the embarrassment and disgrace related to the Van Jones exposure.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212830</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212830</guid>
		<description>&quot;Beyond that, big government is here to stay, along with the Imperial Presidency, and corruption in whichever party is currently in power.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;d like to see reform that, ironically, the farthest lefties are often the ones who want -- partition (break up, fracture) the two major parties and create a system with four to six or more parties instead, with proportional representation in multi-seat bodies, where this is appropriate.  Accompany that with the kinds of &quot;mechanical&quot; constitutional reforms like revising terms in federal office, term limits, etc., and we&#039;d be in much better shape than we are in now.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t have faith in many to be able to handle the bigger, more modernist tasks like reorganizing and reconstituting the states (including defining what they are, what sovereignty if any they would have, selecting physical or natural as well as political boundaries metro-area orientation as well as possible metro area unification), and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Beyond that, big government is here to stay, along with the Imperial Presidency, and corruption in whichever party is currently in power.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#39;d like to see reform that, ironically, the farthest lefties are often the ones who want &#8212; partition (break up, fracture) the two major parties and create a system with four to six or more parties instead, with proportional representation in multi-seat bodies, where this is appropriate.  Accompany that with the kinds of &#8220;mechanical&#8221; constitutional reforms like revising terms in federal office, term limits, etc., and we&#39;d be in much better shape than we are in now.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t have faith in many to be able to handle the bigger, more modernist tasks like reorganizing and reconstituting the states (including defining what they are, what sovereignty if any they would have, selecting physical or natural as well as political boundaries metro-area orientation as well as possible metro area unification), and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212823</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212823</guid>
		<description>&quot;Zzzzz&quot;: What&#039;s relevent and noteworthy is just that -- not a rant.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;* * *&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;So what about the right saying &#039;no government involvement no public option no trigger no nothing or bust buddy&#039;&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What has actually been said is the obvious(!) truth, that reforms don&#039;t require an expansion of federal health care, in fact are completely separate from the former (which is what the Dems want, not &quot;reform&quot; [sic]).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;There are options between &quot;government in it even deeper&quot; and &quot;nothing&quot;.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Note that the pair of choices you list, the false dichotomy that only fools proponents, is not the choice we currently face, though obviously there is no obligation to Do Something, Anything.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Do nothing&quot; and &quot;status quo&quot; by themselves also have been routine false charges accompanying those with concerns about what the Dems have been doing (about more than just health care). The extent and rapidity of change (and shifting of Washington well left of the mainstream) is at the heart of all the issues this year.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It only is gratuitous (but merits mention here) that adults already know &quot;change&quot; is not the same as &quot;improvement,&quot; by definition.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;* * *&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;if an industry – especially one that already is the beneficiary of substantial government subsidies – isn&#039;t working we don&#039;t have some moral obligation to preserve it in perpetuity even if it results in short term pain&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Tell that to the people in Washington who paid off the UAW and propped up GM and Chrysler if not also viewed them as their &quot;Green&quot; toy boxes, and now we learn (unsurprisingly) that they are unlikely to repay all the money of ours that was given to them.  It only adds to intelligent wariness about what Washington wants this year so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Zzzzz&#8221;: What&#39;s relevent and noteworthy is just that &#8212; not a rant.</p>
<p>* * *</p>
<p>&#8220;So what about the right saying &#39;no government involvement no public option no trigger no nothing or bust buddy&#39;&#8221;</p>
<p>What has actually been said is the obvious(!) truth, that reforms don&#39;t require an expansion of federal health care, in fact are completely separate from the former (which is what the Dems want, not &#8220;reform&#8221; [sic]).</p>
<p>&#8220;There are options between &#8220;government in it even deeper&#8221; and &#8220;nothing&#8221;.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note that the pair of choices you list, the false dichotomy that only fools proponents, is not the choice we currently face, though obviously there is no obligation to Do Something, Anything.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Do nothing&#8221; and &#8220;status quo&#8221; by themselves also have been routine false charges accompanying those with concerns about what the Dems have been doing (about more than just health care). The extent and rapidity of change (and shifting of Washington well left of the mainstream) is at the heart of all the issues this year.</p>
<p>It only is gratuitous (but merits mention here) that adults already know &#8220;change&#8221; is not the same as &#8220;improvement,&#8221; by definition.</p>
<p>* * *</p>
<p>&#8220;if an industry – especially one that already is the beneficiary of substantial government subsidies – isn&#39;t working we don&#39;t have some moral obligation to preserve it in perpetuity even if it results in short term pain&#8221;</p>
<p>Tell that to the people in Washington who paid off the UAW and propped up GM and Chrysler if not also viewed them as their &#8220;Green&#8221; toy boxes, and now we learn (unsurprisingly) that they are unlikely to repay all the money of ours that was given to them.  It only adds to intelligent wariness about what Washington wants this year so far.</p>
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		<title>By: Leonidas</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212800</link>
		<dc:creator>Leonidas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 19:58:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212800</guid>
		<description>Agree 100% with the original post.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;One of my issues with the Obama/Biden team going into the election was that they voted 96% and 97% with their own party and I felt they would have trouble standing up to a Congress led by the progressive wing of the democratic party.  it turned out that my concern was merited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree 100% with the original post.  </p>
<p>One of my issues with the Obama/Biden team going into the election was that they voted 96% and 97% with their own party and I felt they would have trouble standing up to a Congress led by the progressive wing of the democratic party.  it turned out that my concern was merited.</p>
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		<title>By: tidbits</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212764</link>
		<dc:creator>tidbits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212764</guid>
		<description>Zzzzz - Thanks for the reply.  The issue you raise is very interesting, i.e. the limits on the power of the presidency and the legislative process.  I think we still have nuanced differences, but perhaps not as much as I initially thought.  Most of our great presidents have been those willing to wield their power.  On the other hand, most of our worst presidents have also been those willing to wield their power.  Consistently, however, those presidents unwilling to wield their power have tended to be ineffectual.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for waiting for justice, equality and social welfare, I guess I&#039;m old fashioned enough to believe in the maxim that &quot;justice delayed is justice denied&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But, I&#039;m getting off point.  You are correct that Congress writes legislation constitutionally.  Our nuanced difference is that I believe there is a role for the president to get involved by stating a policy preference, twisting arms and making deals to get it done.  LBJ&#039;s sheparding of the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act are great examples.  He insisted that the bills go through the Senate Commerce Committee, peopled by liberals who would get it to the floor for a vote, rather than through the &quot;proper&quot; committee (forget which one) where an anti-civil-rights chairman would have buried it.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We do not need to usurp the legislative function, but we also should not deny the leadership role of the president in pushing legislation forward.  My view.  Btw, I would agree that Jefferson (Louisiana Purchase), Lincoln (Emancipation Proclamation), FDR (Court stacking scheme to intimidate the Supreme Court) technically exceeded constitutional authority though to good effect, as did President Nixon, President Cheney - er Bush, and Andrew Jackson all to bad effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zzzzz &#8211; Thanks for the reply.  The issue you raise is very interesting, i.e. the limits on the power of the presidency and the legislative process.  I think we still have nuanced differences, but perhaps not as much as I initially thought.  Most of our great presidents have been those willing to wield their power.  On the other hand, most of our worst presidents have also been those willing to wield their power.  Consistently, however, those presidents unwilling to wield their power have tended to be ineffectual.</p>
<p>As for waiting for justice, equality and social welfare, I guess I&#39;m old fashioned enough to believe in the maxim that &#8220;justice delayed is justice denied&#8221;.</p>
<p>But, I&#39;m getting off point.  You are correct that Congress writes legislation constitutionally.  Our nuanced difference is that I believe there is a role for the president to get involved by stating a policy preference, twisting arms and making deals to get it done.  LBJ&#39;s sheparding of the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act are great examples.  He insisted that the bills go through the Senate Commerce Committee, peopled by liberals who would get it to the floor for a vote, rather than through the &#8220;proper&#8221; committee (forget which one) where an anti-civil-rights chairman would have buried it.</p>
<p>We do not need to usurp the legislative function, but we also should not deny the leadership role of the president in pushing legislation forward.  My view.  Btw, I would agree that Jefferson (Louisiana Purchase), Lincoln (Emancipation Proclamation), FDR (Court stacking scheme to intimidate the Supreme Court) technically exceeded constitutional authority though to good effect, as did President Nixon, President Cheney &#8211; er Bush, and Andrew Jackson all to bad effect.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212743</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212743</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;How does it remotely make sense to purposely kill an industry that employs so many people, even as we&#039;re bailing out other huge industries like the automakers?&quot;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;A couple things... these health reforms are due to phase in. Hopefully in three years we wont be in &quot;this economy.&quot; Second, even if the economy has improved we should certainly offer them jobs at the Public Option and give others generous unemployment benefits (which is what we should have done for the auto industry and really all workers, but that&#039;s another argument). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But the thing is, and as a capitalist I know you&#039;ll appreciate this, if an industry – especially one that already is the beneficiary of substantial government subsidies – isn&#039;t working we don&#039;t have some moral obligation to preserve it in perpetuity even if it results in short term pain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;How does it remotely make sense to purposely kill an industry that employs so many people, even as we&#39;re bailing out other huge industries like the automakers?&#8221;</b><br />A couple things&#8230; these health reforms are due to phase in. Hopefully in three years we wont be in &#8220;this economy.&#8221; Second, even if the economy has improved we should certainly offer them jobs at the Public Option and give others generous unemployment benefits (which is what we should have done for the auto industry and really all workers, but that&#39;s another argument). </p>
<p>But the thing is, and as a capitalist I know you&#39;ll appreciate this, if an industry – especially one that already is the beneficiary of substantial government subsidies – isn&#39;t working we don&#39;t have some moral obligation to preserve it in perpetuity even if it results in short term pain.</p>
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		<title>By: Lit3Bolt</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212742</link>
		<dc:creator>Lit3Bolt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212742</guid>
		<description>My comment was mainly aimed at Dr J, casualobserver, and DLS.  I hate seeing the fermenting CW of &quot;Ho-hum, Democrats overreached again and America said, No!&quot; and people forgetting the pure obstruction of the Republicans, as if the Democrats acted in a vacuum.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Beyond that, big government is here to stay, along with the Imperial Presidency, and corruption in whichever party is currently in power.  The only way I see to even begin touching those issues is a Third Constitutional Convention or another Civil War which I don&#039;t think will happen in my lifetime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment was mainly aimed at Dr J, casualobserver, and DLS.  I hate seeing the fermenting CW of &#8220;Ho-hum, Democrats overreached again and America said, No!&#8221; and people forgetting the pure obstruction of the Republicans, as if the Democrats acted in a vacuum.</p>
<p>Beyond that, big government is here to stay, along with the Imperial Presidency, and corruption in whichever party is currently in power.  The only way I see to even begin touching those issues is a Third Constitutional Convention or another Civil War which I don&#39;t think will happen in my lifetime.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212737</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212737</guid>
		<description>Why do you completely discount Obama&#039;s stated reason, which was that we can&#039;t throw millions more people out of work during this economy? How does it remotely make sense to purposely kill an industry that employs so many people, even as we&#039;re bailing out other huge industries like the automakers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do you completely discount Obama&#39;s stated reason, which was that we can&#39;t throw millions more people out of work during this economy? How does it remotely make sense to purposely kill an industry that employs so many people, even as we&#39;re bailing out other huge industries like the automakers?</p>
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		<title>By: Zzzzz</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212736</link>
		<dc:creator>Zzzzz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212736</guid>
		<description>I love this blog!  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;i&gt;Nah, on second thought, let&#039;s continue the debate...example: Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation by Presidential fiat. By your theory, shouldn&#039;t that have been an act of Congress, written by legislators? Hint. If you get by that one, my next examples will include FDR, JFK and LBJ.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t disagree with what many of these great leaders did, just how they did it.  I think we would have gotten there legislatively, it just would have taken longer.  However, once we got there legislatively, it would have been a lot less controversial and there would be less blow back.  You may argue that this would mean a longer period of injustice and you would be right.  However, what is so special about America and so enduring is our process (as outlined in the Constitution).  It is about working to get consensus from the majority.  Winning at all costs quickly just poisons the system.  You get resentments that last for generations.  Think about it.  The bad behavior by Republicans over the last several years means an entire younger generation views them as inherently untrustworthy.  We can&#039;t have tit for tat politics.  It is bad for this country.  I would rather have delayed justice than endorse tactics that further tear us apart.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As a personal note, I am a lesbian.  So, when I say I would rather have delayed justice, I am speaking as someone who has experienced plenty of injustice.  The thing is this, my side is winning the culture because all we are asking for is justice.  I am patient.  The military will stop kicking out gay soldiers.  I will be legally married.  This will all happen in my lifetime in my conservative state by majority consensus.  Already, I am out and open and well liked at work.  I wouldn&#039;t have dreamed of that 20 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this blog!  </p>
<p><i>Nah, on second thought, let&#39;s continue the debate&#8230;example: Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation by Presidential fiat. By your theory, shouldn&#39;t that have been an act of Congress, written by legislators? Hint. If you get by that one, my next examples will include FDR, JFK and LBJ.</i></p>
<p>I don&#39;t disagree with what many of these great leaders did, just how they did it.  I think we would have gotten there legislatively, it just would have taken longer.  However, once we got there legislatively, it would have been a lot less controversial and there would be less blow back.  You may argue that this would mean a longer period of injustice and you would be right.  However, what is so special about America and so enduring is our process (as outlined in the Constitution).  It is about working to get consensus from the majority.  Winning at all costs quickly just poisons the system.  You get resentments that last for generations.  Think about it.  The bad behavior by Republicans over the last several years means an entire younger generation views them as inherently untrustworthy.  We can&#39;t have tit for tat politics.  It is bad for this country.  I would rather have delayed justice than endorse tactics that further tear us apart.  </p>
<p>As a personal note, I am a lesbian.  So, when I say I would rather have delayed justice, I am speaking as someone who has experienced plenty of injustice.  The thing is this, my side is winning the culture because all we are asking for is justice.  I am patient.  The military will stop kicking out gay soldiers.  I will be legally married.  This will all happen in my lifetime in my conservative state by majority consensus.  Already, I am out and open and well liked at work.  I wouldn&#39;t have dreamed of that 20 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212733</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:03:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212733</guid>
		<description>To be clear, I think it&#039;s more about insurance industry money than any genuine fear. Democrats are facing the sort of distortions you&#039;re talking about even with their weaksauce plans.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I still think &quot;dismantle&quot; is the proper term. Handing our grandparents off to the private insurance industry wolves doesn&#039;t solve any problems in terms of costs, unless you&#039;re ready for onerous regulations or reduced subsidies. And handing off Social Security to Wall Street would have destroyed it if we went through another stock market crash like we just went through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be clear, I think it&#39;s more about insurance industry money than any genuine fear. Democrats are facing the sort of distortions you&#39;re talking about even with their weaksauce plans.</p>
<p>I still think &#8220;dismantle&#8221; is the proper term. Handing our grandparents off to the private insurance industry wolves doesn&#39;t solve any problems in terms of costs, unless you&#39;re ready for onerous regulations or reduced subsidies. And handing off Social Security to Wall Street would have destroyed it if we went through another stock market crash like we just went through.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212727</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212727</guid>
		<description>Right, Chris, because it takes a lot of political courage to state what your real goals are when there are always plenty of people who will distort and demagogue. Just like you do when you rephrase proposals to privatize SS and Medicare as &#039;dismantling.&#039; I&#039;ll grant you that those proposals are game changers, but by using the term &quot;dismantle&#039; you intentionally imply that nothing will take the place of the current programs, which isn&#039;t what was proposed in either case, at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, Chris, because it takes a lot of political courage to state what your real goals are when there are always plenty of people who will distort and demagogue. Just like you do when you rephrase proposals to privatize SS and Medicare as &#39;dismantling.&#39; I&#39;ll grant you that those proposals are game changers, but by using the term &#8220;dismantle&#39; you intentionally imply that nothing will take the place of the current programs, which isn&#39;t what was proposed in either case, at all.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212720</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212720</guid>
		<description>Yes, because the health insurance industry is lining their pockets and they&#039;re afraid of charges that they are trying to nationalize doctors and hospitals as you mistakenly said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, because the health insurance industry is lining their pockets and they&#39;re afraid of charges that they are trying to nationalize doctors and hospitals as you mistakenly said.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212719</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212719</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;private health insurance industry&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;was actually what I meant to write. And I&#039;m not surprised that you&#039;d support this, but I&#039;m sure you know that Obama and most of the Congressional Dems who&#039;ve participated in the public option bills will deny that this is their goal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>private health insurance industry</i></p>
<p>was actually what I meant to write. And I&#39;m not surprised that you&#39;d support this, but I&#39;m sure you know that Obama and most of the Congressional Dems who&#39;ve participated in the public option bills will deny that this is their goal.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212717</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212717</guid>
		<description>CStanley,&lt;br&gt;I can only hope the current plan is to dismantle the private health &lt;b&gt;insurance&lt;/b&gt; industry. It does nothing of value. No one that I&#039;m aware of has ever talked about dismantling the system of private doctors and hospitals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CStanley,<br />I can only hope the current plan is to dismantle the private health <b>insurance</b> industry. It does nothing of value. No one that I&#39;m aware of has ever talked about dismantling the system of private doctors and hospitals.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212716</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212716</guid>
		<description>I apparently missed that GOP vote on an alternative budget, and I guess all I can say is that it appears to be a posture toward acknowledging that current Medicare spending is unsustainable (so, a proposal to continue paying out to those who are retired or nearing retirement while privatizing the plan for young people.) I think it&#039;s an unwise way to go about things, but it&#039;s just as bad to keep pretending that we can continue on the current course or pretending that the Dem&#039;s healthcare reforms will fix the cost problems.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the rest, those are strictly your opinions about where the policies would lead. That would be like me claiming that the current Dem platform is to dismantle the private healthcare industry. It may be my opinion that that&#039;s what they&#039;re after, and I can support that with some fact, but other people can connect the dots in different ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I apparently missed that GOP vote on an alternative budget, and I guess all I can say is that it appears to be a posture toward acknowledging that current Medicare spending is unsustainable (so, a proposal to continue paying out to those who are retired or nearing retirement while privatizing the plan for young people.) I think it&#39;s an unwise way to go about things, but it&#39;s just as bad to keep pretending that we can continue on the current course or pretending that the Dem&#39;s healthcare reforms will fix the cost problems.</p>
<p>As for the rest, those are strictly your opinions about where the policies would lead. That would be like me claiming that the current Dem platform is to dismantle the private healthcare industry. It may be my opinion that that&#39;s what they&#39;re after, and I can support that with some fact, but other people can connect the dots in different ways.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212715</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 16:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212715</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;&quot;In some polls, perhaps, while I could point to other polls that show the opposite for almost all of the issues you cited.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;br&gt;In any case, the progressive platform is hardly &quot;fringe&quot; if we&#039;re talking about nearly half or more than half the country.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the GOP platform:&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_09/019796.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Republicans have recently voted&lt;/a&gt; for a budget which would destroy Medicare as we know it, and have long said it  was a bad idea to begin with.&lt;br&gt;George W. wanted to &quot;privatize&quot; aka gamble away Social Security by giving it to Wall Street.&lt;br&gt;Republicans have long called for the creation of school vouchers to facilitate the move from public to private schools financed by tax payers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>&#8220;In some polls, perhaps, while I could point to other polls that show the opposite for almost all of the issues you cited.&#8221;</b><br />In any case, the progressive platform is hardly &#8220;fringe&#8221; if we&#39;re talking about nearly half or more than half the country.</p>
<p>As for the GOP platform:<br /><a href="http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_09/019796.php" rel="nofollow">Republicans have recently voted</a> for a budget which would destroy Medicare as we know it, and have long said it  was a bad idea to begin with.<br />George W. wanted to &#8220;privatize&#8221; aka gamble away Social Security by giving it to Wall Street.<br />Republicans have long called for the creation of school vouchers to facilitate the move from public to private schools financed by tax payers.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212690</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212690</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Everything I mentioned in my polling summary either has majority or plurality support.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;In some polls, perhaps, while I could point to other polls that show the opposite for almost all of the issues you cited (the wars being the main exception- public opinion does seem to have shifted so that most everyone agrees that Iraq should wind down now and recently a slight majority has begun to favor pulling out of Afghanistan.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Please show your work on the assertion that the GOP platform has endorsed dismantling of Medicare, SS, and public schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Everything I mentioned in my polling summary either has majority or plurality support.</i><br />In some polls, perhaps, while I could point to other polls that show the opposite for almost all of the issues you cited (the wars being the main exception- public opinion does seem to have shifted so that most everyone agrees that Iraq should wind down now and recently a slight majority has begun to favor pulling out of Afghanistan.)</p>
<p>Please show your work on the assertion that the GOP platform has endorsed dismantling of Medicare, SS, and public schools.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212688</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212688</guid>
		<description>CStanley,&lt;br&gt;Not true. Everything I mentioned in my polling summary either has majority or plurality support. And everything I mentioned in my Republica platform paragraph has been endorsed by the Republican party with in the last few years, with maybe the exception of Medicaid (my apologies on that one).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CStanley,<br />Not true. Everything I mentioned in my polling summary either has majority or plurality support. And everything I mentioned in my Republica platform paragraph has been endorsed by the Republican party with in the last few years, with maybe the exception of Medicaid (my apologies on that one).</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/45716/progressives-are-killing-obamas-presidency/comment-page-2/#comment-212686</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=45716#comment-212686</guid>
		<description>Chris, both your polling summations and GOP platform synopsis are highly distorted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, both your polling summations and GOP platform synopsis are highly distorted.</p>
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