As the legislation these people have produced this year shows, worseningly. Worse still is that Obama has been siding with these lunatics. (Is it a surprise that the health care foolishness is failing so badly and that the intelligent public is increasingly alienated by these people?)

Such is the nature of the current effort and the “arguments” and other position components in its favor.

J seems to think that because “tens of thousands” of Japanese are refused treatment that Japans National Health Care system is a failure.

Steve, what I said was “Their system has much to recommend it, certainly in terms of access” and “The good things liberals say about it are largely true.” I've agreed their system has advantages. Can you agree it has disadvantages?

You asked me to comment on a specific advantage they have over us–cheaper MRIs–and I cited a specific disadvantage on the flip side. They both illustrate the larger point that centrally set prices cause inefficient resource allocation, creating shortages in one area and surpluses in another.

DE, it's just a screen name, not sure you should make much of it. I do have a PhD, though.

“Question: Since you've told me that you're not a medical doctor… Why did you choose “Dr J” as a screen name when you jumped into the Health Care debate at TMV?”

Good question–yet to be answered

J wrote: “The downside is that represents an inefficient allocation of resources. They've got a surplus of MRI machines but shortages of hospital staff.

J wrote: “They have too many hospitals that have trouble maintaining staff because of price caps, and emergency rooms turn away tens of thousands of people a year.”

Mountains and molehills J.

J seems to think that because “tens of thousands” of Japanese are refused treatment that Japans National Health Care system is a failure. A failure is when 47,000,000 Americans are refused treatment because “The Big Boys” monopolize Health Care system.

Let's do the math:
Japan – 40,000 (J's 10's of thousands) / 127,078,679 (July 2009 est) = 3.14% of the Japanese population is “refused treatment”
vs.
The United States of America – 47,000,000 / 307,212,123 (July 2009 est)= 15.3% of the American (U.S.) population is “refused treatment”

Again you're skirting the question asked AND the fact that in Japan a MRI costs less than $100 and the same MRI here cost $1,500.

I'm not sure what question you think I'm skirting. I agreed with the MRI point. “MRIs are cheap because they have three times as many MRI machines,” said I. The downside is that represents an inefficient allocation of resources. They've got a surplus of MRI machines but shortages of hospital staff.

I'm one of the BIGGEST critics of the healthcare system in the United States. It sucks.

We are in agreement there, I hope.

Jim did address most of the problems eloquently and, for about 70% of it, correctly.

I was on “single payer” insurance when I was deployed to Iraq. My wife and I loved it because it was much less hassle than our private insurace through my normal (civilian) employer.

So you have me on that point. I'm in.

But we have to ensure that we just don't take the profits from the corporations and put it into the hands of other corporations. Our Congress is FAMOUS for that maneuver.

I really don't give a rat's butt about the right-wing consern of competition within healthcare. Competition and profit have no place in someone's life-or-death health choices.

The House bill is totally unacceptable. Pelosi is a nut-case, and so are most of her cronies in the House.
The Senate bill is worth watching. But we should still take a look at including a wellness plan that rewards good lifestyle choices with lower premiums; tort reform, and homeopathic options.

The medical field needs regulation. The pharmaceutical industry direly needs regulation as it is the BIGGEST culprit in the high cost of medical care.

If all of that is included, I'm in.

“J” wrote: “Steve, both you and Mr. Bell brought up Japan… blah, blah blah.”

Again you're skirting the question asked AND the fact that in Japan a MRI costs less than $100 and the same MRI here cost $1,500.

Your side of the debate (the $1.66M/day Industry / partisan right side) have used your ploy very well for months… But times up so how about addressing the real issues and the facts brought up in Jim Bells article.

Please, go on with what you were saying about Republicans not being interested in how the rest of the world is handling health care.

Do you have personal experience with either of these two programs? If not, where are you getting your information on them?

“J” wrote: “They've achieved universal coverage, as long as you don't get injured while drunk or fighting, which is curiously excluded.”

Ah, “J”… have you looked at your auto and life insurance policy lately?.. Guess what's not included. I think suicide is in there, too.

Another fine example of “J”'s smoke and mirrors.

Since you're again trying to sidestep the fact that an MRI in Japan costs less than $100 and the same MRI here cost $1,500 I'll try to sidetrack the issue, too.

Question: Since you've told me that you're not a medical doctor… Why did you choose “Dr J” as a screen name when you jumped into the Health Care debate at TMV?

Now, getting back to Jim Bell's excellent article would you please try to actually address the points he raised instead of looking into your crystal ball and giving us smoke and mirrors.

Overseas, strict cost controls actually drive innovation. In the U.S., and MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)

Ah, Japan. Not only can the hand be used like a knife there, but he good things liberals say about its health care are largely true. They've achieved universal coverage, as long as you don't get injured while drunk or fighting, which is curiously excluded.

But many of the economic problems conservatives warn about are true as well. Due to an aging population, a deteriorating national diet, and ever-more-expensive technology, demand is growing there just like it is here. But it's made worse by the overutilization the system encourages.

“On average, the Japanese see physicians almost 14 times a year, three times the number of visits in other developed countries.” Furthermore, “Our analyses suggest a direct relationship between the number of beds and the average length of stay: the more free beds a hospital has, the longer patients remain in them.”

While demand rises, they have the predictable problems with uneven supply. MRIs are cheap because they have three times as many MRI machines as other developed countries, most of which are “woefully underutilized.” They have too many hospitals that have trouble maintaining staff because of price caps, and emergency rooms turn away tens of thousands of people a year.

The government attempts to make ends meet by increasing co-pays and capping prices more aggressively, but the one has failed to curb demand, and the other exacerbates the supply quality and availability problems.

Their system has much to recommend it, certainly in terms of access, but they don't appear to have solved the problems that continue to drive our health care costs through the roof.

Leonidas didn't address the fact that:

That the United States is the last of the developed countries in the free world that has not gone to national health care.

or

He found that in every country he researched, the costs were less than the cost of care the U.S. “But in fact all other payment systems are more efficient than ours.”

or

[He] looked at how cost controls stifle innovation and found this to also be a false fear. “Any American who has had a hip or knee replacement is standing on French innovation.”

or

“Overseas, strict cost controls actually drive innovation. In the U.S., and MRI scan of the neck region costs about $1,500. In Japan, the identical scan costs $98. (And Japanese labs still make a profit.)”

or

The only reason the public option surfaced in the debate in the first place is because Republicans, being the pro business party they are, embarked upon a strategy to kill the idea of national health care to protect the businesses which are currently involved in the health care industry.

or

[Republicans] are not interested in looking into how the rest of the world is handling health care.

No… Instead Leonidas called anyone that didn't agree with his Eeyorian outlook ** stupid **… Then he jumps into nutter talking points and non sequitur.

I don't think the right really wants congress to open the new session and it's obvious they're scared to death of Obama, just look at the reaction that the Presidents speech has gotten from them. Leonidas's comments in the latest Obama speech to the Kids thread is an example of how the right is falling all over themselves trying to keep an upper hand.

Single Payer has proven itself over and over to be the most efficient way of providing health care for everyone and every other developed nation in the world have it and have proven it to be an elegant way of solving the problem.

There are two groups of people who truly oppose health care reform: 1) The Health Care Industry and their paid shills and lackeys; and, 2) Partisan Republicans who would rather cut off a leg than see Obama and the Democrats successful. With talking points and 'exception to the rule' examples that they repeat over and over again they have the attention of many but I think in the next month or two their true colors will be exposed and they'll have to slink back under a rock.