An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right

So Can Anyone Actually Do Anything About Global Warming?

The new issue of Foreign Affairs is hot off the presses. Its cover package includes three articles about global warming that are well worth reading. The focus here is entirely on how to solve the problem. This is a discussion of the politics, not the scientific debate behind it.

First up is Michael Levi, who provides a very sobering look at how hard it will be for this year’s Copenhagen conference (the successor to Kyoto) to produce meaningful results.

Hopes are higher than ever for a breakthrough climate deal. For the past eight years, many argued that developing nations reluctant to commit to a new global climate-change deal — particularly China and India — were simply hiding behind the United States, whose enthusiastic engagement was all that was needed for a breakthrough. Now the long-awaited shift in U.S. policy has arrived.

But George Bush’s America wasn’t the only problem:

The odds of signing a comprehensive treaty in December are vanishingly small. And even reaching such a deal the following year would be an extraordinary challenge…

Many U.S. lawmakers want absolute near-term emissions caps from China and India, but those countries will not sign up for anything of the sort for at least another decade. And before they consider a deal of any kind, Chinese and Indian negotiators are demanding that developed countries commit to cutting their greenhouse gas emissions by over 40 percent from 1990 levels by 2020, but none of the world’s wealthiest countries will even come close to meeting this goal.

And what if, miraculously, Copenhagen does result in a breakthrough treaty?

Even a blockbuster deal in which every country signed up to binding emissions caps would come nowhere close to guaranteeing success, since the world has few useful options for enforcing commitments to slash emissions short of punitive trade sanctions or similarly unpalatable penalties.

Levi returns often to the challenge of negotiating a deal that can satisfy both the West as well as India and China.

Americans accustomed to thinking about climate diplomacy within the framework of the Kyoto Protocol may assume that the obvious next step is to translate reduction goals into emissions caps, put them in a treaty, and establish a system for global carbon trading. But this would be problematic for three reasons.

First, negotiators from developing countries would insist on much less stringent caps than whatever they thought they could meet…

Second, even if a developing country met its agreed emissions cap, other nations would, in the near term, have little way of verifying this, since most developing countries, including China and India, lack the capacity to robustly monitor their entire economies’ emissions…

And finally, even if the problems of excessively high caps and poor verification could be solved, simple caps would have little value on their own. Canada is a case in point. Ottawa will soon exceed its Kyoto limit by about 30 percent, yet it will face no penalty for doing so because the Kyoto parties never agreed on any meaningful punishments. The United States and others have essentially no way to hold countries such as China and India to emissions caps short of using punitive trade sanctions or other blunt instruments that would make a mess of broader U.S. foreign policy. Obsessing narrowly in Copenhagen over legally binding near-term caps for developing countries is therefore a waste of time.

Seriously? The Canadians? Are there no good countries left in global politics?

Anyhow, Levi argues that the best hope for Copenhagen is a partnership that helps China and other developing countries clean up their act at home:

Shifting China onto a cleaner path will require Beijing to identify specific ways in which it can make deep emissions-intensity cuts. That could include better enforcement of building codes, mandating the use of efficient technology in factories, new subsidies for renewable energy, or a provisional commitment to use carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) technology on new coal plants by 2020. The United States and other wealthy countries should then offer to help China in whatever ways they usefully can. When it comes to building codes, Washington could help develop Beijing’s monitoring and enforcement capacity…wind power could be expanded by encouraging China to improve its protection of intellectual property, which would attract investment from international firms; and to help slash emissions from coal, the U.S. and Chinese governments could fund private demonstrations of CCS technology and share the resulting intellectual property.

Those are certainly interesting ideas, but one has to wonder about the political plausibility of an approach that rests on China welcoming foreign involvement in its domestic affairs and becoming a leader in the defense of intellectual property rights.

It will certainly be interesting to see whether the US government approaches Copenhagen in the same modest spirit as Mr. Levi.

Cross-posted at Conventional Folly

  • mrgalt
    Man made global warming is a hoax. You need to read more. You are poorly informed. The Sun causes the variations in climate. The earth has been cooling for years now. Get better informed before you post things.
  • TheMagicalSkyFather
    MrGalt- You are speaking of global dimming which is also an issue, read a book sometime.
  • DLS
    So much can be written about the idiocy, perversity, scumminess with the religion of global warming ...

    Cap-and-trade and related scams are just that, scams, as well as being stupidly dreamy. Not to mention all too typical insofar as this PC religion is concerned, concentrating primarily on the West and especially the Most Hated USA. The goal: de-industrialization, if not merely deliberate crippling, which is perverse.

    How will it enforced? By the UN, of sickening "racism conference" contemporary notoriety, for example?

    I'll read the Foreign Affairs articles, anyway (it's a good publication -- wondering aloud, as it did a few years ago, about revolutions in Saudi Arabia, Russia, or Mexico and how these could affect the USA was interesting, for example), but it's with a jaundiced eye given the Lysenkoism that is the "global warming" or "climate change" Movement in addition to repackaged misdirected-at-the-West Malthusianism and other pathologies found within this Movement (dishonest and irresponsible alarmism and catastrophism, the true misuse of fear and assault on reason, a contrived religion with a PC-hip catechism, priests that can attain PC-celebrity status and even win a PC Nobel Prize, the equivalent of the Inquisition and other innumerable scummy tactics directed at apostates, heretics, and those who merely insufficiently pious or faithful, and a chorus reciting the proper words and phrases in the form of the liberal media).

    China and India, and other nations, are doing what normal people expect them to be doing, and which they have every right to do and logically should do: develop into modern nations, which will use modern sources and uses of large amounts of energy in proven forms and ways, conventional and long accepted (at least by normal people). They and every other nation retarded in development deserves to develop, to provide automobiles to everyone who wants one, to use all the electricity they can or want to use, etc.
  • DLS
    "But George Bush’s America wasn’t the only problem"

    Phffft. Discard the leftist logical and other garbage. Even Democrats in the US Senate were not stupid.
  • Rudi
    The earth has been cooling for years now.
    If this is true, wht are ocean temps the highest ever recorded in 130 years.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090820/ap_on_sc/us...
    It's not just the ocean off the Northeast coast that is super-warm this summer. July was the hottest the world's oceans have been in almost 130 years of record-keeping.

    The average water temperature worldwide was 62.6 degrees, according to the National Climatic Data Center, the branch of the U.S. government that keeps world weather records. That was 1.1 degree higher than the 20th century average, and beat the previous high set in 1998 by a couple hundredths of a degree. The coolest recorded ocean temperature was 59.3 degrees in December 1909.

    Meteorologists said there's a combination of forces at work this year: A natural El Nino system just getting started on top of worsening man-made global warming, and a dash of random weather variations. The resulting ocean heat is already harming threatened coral reefs. It could also hasten the melting of Arctic sea ice and help hurricanes strengthen.
  • 97% of climate scientists think human activity is causing global *climate change*. I tend to agree, but I share DLS's concerns about cap and trade (it would sure be a lot easier to find nuggets of ration in your comments if you'd scrap the insulting rhetoric, though). Whether or not you think global warming is fact or hoax, it really isn't a great idea to pollute our air and water, is it?
  • adesnik
    Not great. But if the choice is between shutting down factories (or raising taxes) and avoiding pollution, suddenly environemntalism becomes a little more complicated.
  • DLS
    Unfortunately, "climate science" is now a modern day Lysenkoism as well as a religion. Sad but true.

    (I was in Iowa a few days ago and was on limited funds when I visited the good book store in Davenport. I was tempted but declined to get a book on Lysenko and Lysenkoism, so relevent as this subject is, and instead got a book on La Nina, which was somewhat poorly written or edited, but which was worth it and possibly more useful.)

    But back to here and now. A variant of what Green Dreams has said before holds here:

    "it really isn't a great idea to pollute our air and water, is it?"

    No, and part of the galling nature of the global warming Movement is that the past environmentalists who have leapt aboard this movement have tarnished the good things about legitimate battles that they won in the past.

    But what you're leading to (and I suspect you know it) is, again: "By reducing pollution from combustion and other sources, we all win."

    The only limits are imposed by sensibility and cost-effectiveness in this legitimate case.

    (Side note: A smarter environment-related kind of Cash for Clunkers program would be based on pollution, as defined by known emissions at time of new vehicle sales, a more accurate criterion than fuel economy. Note that it would qualify more older vehicles for exchange for newer vehicles, reducing air pollution. The older-for-newer exchange supports higher fuel efficiency, which is more important than fuel economy, which has been flat since the mid-1980s even though efficiency has increased, pollution reduced. This is actually a better program to undertake than many air pollution efforts EPA might attempt or have sought already.)
  • DLS
    "DLS's concerns about cap and trade"

    It is a SCAM. It is fine-feeling fascism and more, wherein governments will meddle, and this is known beforehand and is desired. It is "playing market" and an open invitation to corruption. It is harmful to industry and to our economy. No doubt the middlemen will profit from this, and it's obviously likely that the current people who are in charge now of this idea are likely to be exposed later as having financial interests in the intermediaries and other agents involved.

    And that's not even considering that the goals typically sought by such projects are not only unrealistic but ludicrous (same as the requirements in law that say Poof! N percentage of electricity will be produced by solar and wind, or N percentage of transport will be converted to bicycle or on foot).

    And that's just within the USA. With any international agreement, we cannot seriously expect others to keep their word or comply with restrictions (look at arms control problems everywhere, including with the Iranians), it defies common sense and logic and morality, for undeveloped nations should develop and they have every right do so. This is manifestation of not only silly but destructive and often pathological activism, which includes the post-60s nihilistic self-loathing placing of "blame" and "duty" on the West.

    Scrap all cap and trade (Soviet-style quota-based production permit) nonsense, and underlying ridiculous goals for ridiculous reasons, and just go to a plain carbon tax, for (real) pollution reduction (or to pay for what currently are externalities), not for any silly political stunt reasons.

    Of course, it's sensible to wait for the economy to recover before introducing new taxes and costs, as with other things like health care, but sensibility is not the name of the current administration's game(s).
  • DLS
    "it would sure be a lot easier to find nuggets of ration in your comments if you'd scrap the insulting rhetoric, though"

    What's earned and appropriate belongs there. Plus I was nice and quickly directed and limited my remarks mainly to cap-and-trade.

    * * *

    Assuming there is some kind of threat and we want to postpone if not prevent hardship (what has been known about possible global warming, if human activity were unchecked, since at least the 1960s will get less, not more, bad for us all as the world develops, but it would still be hardship), aside from reducing combustion (especially for transport or space heating were substitutes aren't there now), we can act in ways that oppose what others formerly considered about warming the higher latitudes, or when they feared global "cooling" (even hyped into a threat of an accelerated or imminent new Ice Age).

    * Increase earth albedo. Rather than darken Canada and Russia, for example, lighten it (white, not black).

    * Increase the clouds in the atmosphere.

    * Put more aerosols into the atmosphere.

    * Construct a sun shade in space. (If additionally extreme measures are needed)

    All these ideas have already been conceived and discussed.


    I believe it's reasonable now to try to reduce air pollution, and we in the West are not "sinful" or obliged to harm ourselves for any "reason" but should just act sensibly. We could replace coal power plants with nuclear plants (cheaper than gas-fired plants, the other alternative). We can the use of oil for space heating in remaining old parts of the USA to gas heating. (I suspect any oil-fired power plants already are replaced by gas-fired power plants.) We have no imminent miracles with battery technology or electric vehicles but someday these are likely to replace much use of internal combustion engines for transport. (Fuel cells also should give us an "off-grid" power supply of all kinds and sizes for all kinds of stationary as well as portable uses, including homes and businesses that provide their own power on site, with no more need for electricity power plant supplies, transmission, and distribution in such cases.) It's simply going to take time for all these things to happen; we cannot and of course should not be impatient or otherwise disturbed (and disturbing).
  • * Increase earth albedo. Rather than darken Canada and Russia, for example, lighten it (white, not black).

    Obama's science advisor has spoken about this, not in Russia or Canada, but making our pavement white instead of black. Surprising how much such simple changes can reduce temperature gain.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Increasing the planet's albedo is a way to buy us some time. I think of this as I see the new shopping center being built less than two miles from my house and see all the "nice" black asphalt in the parking lots and the roads being added to deal with the new traffic. As well as the new asphalt from tons of road repair around town. All of this should be, if not white, certainly something lighter than what we now have. The same thing applies to roofs. Even greater efforts at reforestation also need to be undertaken. Then we need to figure out a way to undo the increases in carbonic acid in the ocean caused by increased intake of CO2 without releasing CO2 back into the atmosphere.
  • EEllis
    "97% of climate scientists think human activity is causing global *climate change*. "

    That is a very imprecise statement. That human activity effects global *climate change* may be correct, but no one has shown that it "caused" it, ie that no other factors are involved which is what your statement implies.
  • DLS
    "Obama's science advisor has spoken about this, not in Russia or Canada, but making our pavement white instead of black. Surprising how much such simple changes can reduce temperature gain."

    Well, it's more of a local thing, as with roofs and other things in cities, namely to reduce the "heat island" effect. It's local relief during hotter weather (that reduces air conditioning loads and costs, incidentally) more than any general feel-good fluff about "global warming" or "climate change" (other than locally).

    Yes, the pavement can be changed. However, I wouldn't rush to make everything white, even if summer is hot in so much of the country. In the Sunbelt, certainly; but what about the Snowbelt? It's better to have a black surface where there is significant ice and snow in the winter. (We can't afford to do what we ideally would, to use energy to heat pavement to melt ice and snow, because energy isn't cheap enough.)

    White roofs help in summertime (and I believe are always better than the energy loss amelioration of black roofs in wintertime, from what I once read). With roofs, they have me thinking not only of one, but of three things. First is the white roof. Second is a roof with solar panels. Solar is best used for things like peak shaving during hot sunny afternoons, which is true in much of the Sunbelt, notably in the arid southwestern USA. Third is a truly "green roof." I've loved the Eastern deciduous forest for ages (as I said, it'll make a naturalist out of anybody) and a truly green roof would feature perlite and peat moss or another suitably lightweight growing medium, featuring plants grown on the roofs (as well as, say, on balconies) of city and suburban buildings. They could be deciduous trees (bare in winter, admitting sunlight; leafed in summer, shading the roof and the building), fruit trees, vegetable gardens, et cetera. (Rooftop gardens, rooftop urban gardens)

    And I'm not only a fan of "urban gardens" (in city and suburb, parcels of land converted from other uses or from abandonment to vegetable or fruit gardening, etc.) not in a silly contemporary lefty food fad sense but to help hungry people feed themselves as well as learn about gardening and nature (as well as to do something other than stay unproductive in jail, for example). (I'm also a fan of urban parks and networks of native-plant-landscaped rail-trail-style rec trails connecting urban parks and gardens and neighborhood centers.) I'm a fan also of so-called "green streets" and "green alleys" that introduce grass, say, in place of 100% pavement. To convert many streets not merely to white pavement but to grass with a small amount of pavement (mere strips, or a latticework through which the grass grows) would do a tremendous job toward improving the landscape as well as cooling it.

    (I know that seriously from my time spent in Phoenix, from walking from paved roads and lots to paths through or by lawns and near trees!)

    And as a bonus -- consider the CO2-oxygen exchange and volatile organic compound and other pollution reduction that the plants afford, in addition to Pleasing Green being seen everywhere.


    [Scroll down to bottom of page at first link, to see Turfslab and Grasspave. As I have said some time ago, I wish the St. Louis metro neighborhood I lived for a while had this as pavement in addition to raised sidewalks and roundabouts at intersections.]

    (Streets, alleys, PARKING LOTS...)

    http://www.detnews.com/article/20090610/BIZ/906...

    http://www.greengaragedetroit.com/index.php?tit...

    http://www.m-bike.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2...


    [GREEN roofs and related]

    http://www.greenroofs.com/

    http://www.cityfarmer.org/subrooftops.html

    http://www.gardeners.com/Rooftop-Gardens/5283,d...

    http://www.g-sky.com/

    http://www.urbanroofgardens.com/menu/roof_garde...


    [Local markets, Whole Foods, regular chains, or big box Wal-Mart or Target -- all can do this]

    http://www.skyvegetables.com/


    [Urban gardens -- emphasis on the Detroit example -- but apply to suburbs as well as central cities]

    http://www.detroitagriculture.org/

    http://features.csmonitor.com/gardening/2008/08...

    http://www.cskdetroit.org/ewg/

    http://www.whatsthediff.com/2009/08/urban-agric...

    http://www.urbangardeninghelp.com/


    [Perlite -- my favorite gardening stuff to handle -- as a lightweight garden medium]

    http://www.schundler.com/plantscapes.htm

    http://www.perlite.org/perlite_info/guides/plan...

    http://www.perlite.net/
  • EEllis, I neither stated nor implied that there are no other factors contributing to climate change, but if you wish, I'll admit that there are probably other factors at work. Nonetheless, global average temperature is unquestionably linked to carbon level in the atmosphere. There is no instance in the last 2 million years when these two did not mirror each other. Some big spikes have been *caused* by volcanoes, though the smoke from those can also reflect sunlight. Currently the vast majority of climate scientists accept that the current increase in atmospheric CO2 level is caused by human burning of fossil fuels coupled with deforestation. This is irrefutable. When you take carbon that has been locked in deep rock strata and burn it, you release CO2 into the atmosphere. If you don't burn that sequestered carbon, it does not release CO2. The relationship cannot be more simple or direct.

    The reason some people, perhaps including you, deny the connection is presumably that you think maybe rising temperature is *causing* the increase of atmospheric CO2. But the reason big business pays to support denial of global warming is that they don't want the extra cost of reducing emissions. They do not believe they are scientifically correct, as internal memos show. Their scientists have known for years that the problem results from human burning of fossil fuels. Mobil-Exxon has admitted this officially. Even GW Bush eventually admitted it.

    BTW, scientists also concede that the global mass extinction currently occurring, the fifth in world history, is caused by humans.
  • DLS
    "That human activity effects global *climate change* may be correct, but no one has shown that it 'caused' it, ie that no other factors are involved which is what your statement implies."

    That the CO2 levels are increasing due to the post-1850 Industrial and Scientific (and Engineering) Revolution has never been vigorously denied. The Mauna Loa observations clinch this beautifully.

    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/SIOML...

    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/sio-m...

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/


    The problems are indeed what are we causing (or are all-too-quickly being falsely or otherwise accused of causing, as an excuse for government intervention and "social and economic" change of the same kinds sought for the "population explosion" or for "resource depletion" in earlier decades), and to what extent we are doing it relative to what is natural. (And, is this interglacial still "going up" or has it peaked and is it "coming down" in temperature trends toward the next Ice Age?)

    Certainly there's no excuse for what is claimed often as "problems," nor the predictable "solutions."

    How about just getting real about what we do know and what's feasible, practical, and economical?

    And yes, often desireable and even better than what we have now. (Just as serious electric vehicles or fuel cells will give to us eventually, decades from now, if all goes well, for example.)

    Incidentally, though some such as James Lovelock may say otherwise, warmer is better. That's despite any politicized behavior by CDC about increased germs, diseases, and heat injuries (ignoring the threat of hypothermia and how winter weather retards or cripples societal functioning, not only transport, and why so many people in the USA continue to migrate south as well as west). The Carboniferous period was warmer and life truly flourished there -- as it does now in the tropics relative to the rest of the planet. Just look at what a warmer earth would mean for longer, warmer growing seasons, the "area under the curve" expressed normally as growing degree-days (above 43 deg F).

    (No, we don't need to increase the Earth's obliquity to shift it to the optimum value, 54 degrees, or dump vastly greater amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere to warm the Earth. Too costly or difficult, as well as too disruptive and radical in the case of changing the earth's obliquity.)
  • Nice link list, DLS. Thanks. I also really appreciate the relative lack of flaming in your comments on this post, and your obvious interest in and knowledge about it. As for "warmer is better" that is far from true currently. A huge number of people live too close to the ocean to abide much of an increase in sea level. The refugee problems would be unimaginable, for example from Bangladesh alone. Additionally, climate change features such nasty facts as the current drought in the US SW, which is expected to worsen. The resulting water rights battles will be extreme, and economic disruption pretty severe, especially if you're foolishly growing water loving crops in the desert. There's a good chance that warmer waters in the Gulf of Mexico will increase the devastation from hurricanes. The hurricane center in FL said after Katrina and Rita, that the Gulf waters are now so warm that EVERY storm that makes it to the Gulf will become a category 5 storm.

    Steamy tropical climate was just fine for dinosaurs. Our global culture is not set up to adapt to the many downsides of radically different temperatures, storm surges or water levels.
  • DLS
    "As for 'warmer is better' that is far from true currently."

    Actually, it is true. In our real world, in biology... (A lot of processes are temperature-dependent.) Most people prefer the warmer Sunbelt; they may or may not dislike the heat; some thrive in it.

    Is it only positive, not negative, if we get warmer? No. Actually, let me first address what you've said and then I'll address the realistic "worst case" future scenario for global warming.

    "A huge number of people live too close to the ocean to abide much of an increase in sea level."

    Yes, beginning where it counts most for us, which is in the USA. It's doesn't necessitate relocation (though reversion of some coastal lands to natural status might be attractive), but in dealing with the rise (which typically is hyped, but which is worth considering). The Netherlands has held back the sea for years. Of course, it, too, could face worse problems in the future...

    http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/dutch-sea.htm

    ... and we need to have some concern about our future, admittedly.


    But I suspect we'll handle it okay. Note that worst case doesn't feature Greenland and Antarctic ice melting (subject of alarmism and hype) but the Arctic ice melting, which is no net change; a rise is foreseen nevertheless simply due to expansion as the water rises somewhat in temperature.

    "climate change features such nasty facts as the current drought in the US SW, which is expected to worsen. The resulting water rights battles will be extreme, and economic disruption pretty severe"

    Oh, yes, as we already saw in the Southwest with the Colorado River recent squabble, and more so with the Southeastern battle among Georgia, Alabama, and Florida. Water supplies will especially be crucial when people continue moving south and west (stay tuned for updates to the Census next year)


    http://www.census.gov/geo/www/cenpop/cntpop2k.html


    and they'll not only need more water, but more electricity (to operate those air conditioners); the need for electricity will be much greater still given our growing nation and use of electricity (including nowadays for all those computers people are using, and in the future for providing power for electric vehicles, don't forget -- the supply as well as infrastructure isn't there currently).

    Overall, along the West Coast the wet-dry two-season pattern will shift northward, extending the dry period and reducing the wet period, which threatens in particular the California Pacific Crest snowpack on which the state depends so heavily. Don't be surprised to see water transfer sought for California

    http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1992/9203/9...

    as well as elsewhere (return of NAWAPA, Grand Canal, tapping Great Lakes for other regions).

    ["THAT GIANT SUCKING SOUND" SLURP GLUGLUGLUGLUGLUG]

    http://www.applet-magic.com/NAWAPA.htm

    http://ca.geocities.com/grandcanal2005/


    "There's a good chance that warmer waters in the Gulf of Mexico will increase the devastation from hurricanes."

    Maybe, but maybe not. It depends on the real changes that take place if the climate does get truly warmer. (Truly as in truly, and truly as in significantly.)

    The real-world "worst case" for global warming was identified by the 1960s-1970s. It's an ice-free Arctic (melting of the Arctic ice cap), or an Arctic like the Great Lakes with only seasonal ice in the main body, or coastal ice, as by Labrador. (This is the oceanic ice; it does not involve extreme or complete melting of Greenland or Antarctic ice, which should be protected by albedo and increased snowfall.) There would be dissymetry; most effects would be in the Northern Hemisphere. The subtropical highs that control so much weather by the West Coast and the summer humid air flow in the eastern USA would be shifted northward, as would climate zones in the northern hemisphere.

    (Summer climatic controls, maybe 100 miles north with ice-free Arctic; winter, 500 miles or more)


    http://fp.arizona.edu/kkh/climate/trewartha_map...


    Mention is made, too, I've read, of increased upwelling and the disappearance of El Nino (the Southern Oscillation being influenced so much by the wind, and with the shift to the northern hemisphere of the "ICTZ," and boosting the southeast trades that shift north as well. (This was known before the interest in La Nina began; that is one reason I recently got a book on La Nina on a trip recently, to learn more which places are cooler and which are wetter, or drier, during La Nina.) Note that this can actually cool related tropical zones, or reduce the increase in temperature there (and by extension, to the Gulf of Mexico). The intertropical convergence zone (at around six deg N latitude) would be moved to 10-12 N and tend to stay always north of the equator; lat 0 - 20 S would become desertified (South America and Africa; the East Indies and Oceania is a maritime zone of greatest ocean temperatures that would remain probably that way).

    That means hardship for many in the tropics as well as our temperate latitudes, but it's far from the catastrophe people imagine. (In fact, it could increase rainfall during the winter in the Pacific Northwest while also featuring a longer summer drought period, i.e., fabulous longer summers). Yes, there could be more aridity where it's arid already and ranging farther east (desert replaces short grass, short grass replaces tall grass, tall grass prairie replaces forest). I'm unsure how much more arid the Southeast could become. Note that the growing seasons should increase in length and the growing-degree days increase. This would be fabulous for the northern USA, Canada, and Russia, among other nations. Deciduous trees and trustworthy and substantial agriculture all the way to James Bay would be a blessing, not a curse. Conifers up to the coastline (even at the expense of loss of the tundra) would represent a blessing, not a curse. (With more snowfall and potential future fresh water resources, too.)

    A climatic shift could also change scenery in the Southern Highlands, too, for example, as in a set of diagrams I saw in a book about eastern forests. I call it "invasion of the pines" (I'm a fan of the eastern deciduous forest and the four seasons with them): the southern pine forest would move northward and up the Appalachian foothills while the deciduous forest would shift northward and higher up the mountains (often completely removing the spruce-fir forest at higher elevations).

    All in all, I'd be concerned primarily if not exclusively with demographic and migration trends, and their complications related to population growth and energy usage and needs, and water needs, in the USA, more than any speculative change in the climate, often for the better. In the meantime, we win anyway by reducing air pollution, and by changing our metropolitan areas for the better in "green" ways such as green roofs, pavements, public spaces, and so on. And for the rest of the world as well, note that as progress continues in the world, the bad effects of possible global warming are increasingly easier to mitigate or adapt to, and thus less threatening.
  • DLS
    "The resulting water rights battles will be extreme"

    Never mind the Middle East, such as with Turkey, Syria, and Iraq.

    Never mind what we've been experiencing already, most recently in the Southeast.

    The precedents are there,

    http://www.swc.nd.gov/4dlink9/4dcgi/GetContentP...

    http://www.amazon.com/Inter-Basin-Water-Transfe...

    http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.as...

    http://www.water-technology.net/projects/south_...


    and what's so obviously going to be tempting and a concern in the future?

    http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/06/17/great-la...

    http://www.greatlakeslaw.org/glelc/transbasin-w...

    http://www.glwi.uwm.edu/ourwaters/documents/Div...
  • EEllis
    "97% of climate scientists think human activity is causing global *climate change*"

    I didn't see the word contributing, effects, ect I saw causing which would indicate that it was the major if not only factor in global *climate change*. That has not been proven, hell lets be honest, not even been claimed by the majority of researchers examining the issues involved in climate change.

    "The reason some people, perhaps including you, deny the connection is presumably that you think maybe rising temperature is *causing* the increase of atmospheric CO2. "

    Hell no. I think there is a connection and before the end of the last ice age when temp increased then later the co2 increased showed there is some connection between the two. I also think an increase in temp can bring on an increase in co2. What hasn't been shown historically is an increase in co2 causing an increase in temp. We also have the biggest spike in co2 ever with very little change in temp. So the relationship is not well defined and "proves" nothing but does bring questions to light for those who don't treat science like a teen aged fad.

    What the majority of scientists don't say is if there would not be a warming trend without man

    "BTW, scientists also concede that the global mass extinction currently occurring, the fifth in world history, is caused by humans"

    Ummm No. scientists have not as a whole concede that. Hell they haven't even defined what constitutes a global mass extinction never mind that one is occurring or caused by humans. There are multiple theories about it and your off hand remarks trying to sum it up are incorrect and don't add to the conversation.
  • DLS
    For those who are interested, relevent material (esp. Trewartha scheme, hypothetical continent)

    [small file]

    http://fp.arizona.edu/kkh/climate/Trew.map.larg...

    [BIGGER file]

    http://fp.arizona.edu/kkh/climate/PPT-PDFs-09/7...
  • OK, EEllis, here's the detail:

    The specific questions in the 97% poll were:

    1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?

    2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?

    "Of these specialists [climate scientists], 96.2% (76 of 79) answered “risen” to question 1 and 97.4% (75 of 77) answered yes to question 2."
  • ProfMandia
    Global Warming: Man or Myth - The Science of Climate Change

    http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/global_warm...


    Historian of science, Naomi Oreskes of UC San Diego, states "Scientific knowledge is the intellectual and social consensus of affiliated experts based on the weight of available empirical evidence, and evaluated according to accepted methodologies.  If we feel that a policy question deserves to be informed by scientific knowledge, then we have no choice but to ask, what is the consensus of experts on this matter." 

    Climate change has been extensively researched and the overwhelming majority of climate scientists agree that the observed modern day global warming is unprecedented and is very likely caused by humans. Although there is little serious debate between climate experts, many in the general public still think that these scientists are unsure about climate change and the role that humans have played in modern day global warming.  The Website above summarizes some of the key research that has led scientists to their overwhelming consensus while also addressing some of the unfounded claims by climate change skeptics and denialists.

    The only plausible explanation is that today's warming is primarily due to human activities.  The increase in greenhouse emissions can easily account for this warming.  There is robust evidence for the man-made global warming.  There are no other known sources of warming that can explain the observed modern climate change.  People that claim there is no warming or that the warming is not caused by humans have offered no credible alternate hypotheses.  Yes, these folks make claims but none of the claims has stood up to scientific scrutiny. Because I see/hear much disinformation from well-intentioned folks, I feel it is my duty to try to educate people on this very important matter. Unfortunately, it is an uphill battle because most of the real science is discussed in hard-to-read scientific journals and most of the bad science is easily accessible on Web pages, blogs, and other forms of mass media.  Worse, there are political organizations such as The Heartland Institute that present themselves as scientific organizations but these organizations are directly and indirectly funded by the fossil fuel industry and others that stand to lose if greenhouse gas emissions are reduced.

    It is fine to be skeptical, but it is never fine to be a denialist.  A skeptic is willing to hear both sides and is honest with his assessment of the information.  A denialist blindly accepts everything that supports his opinion and immediately discards everything that does not.  Carefully read my Global Warming site with an honest, open mind.  Then weigh what I am discussing with what you have heard and where/who you have heard it from.
  • EEllis
    "Of these specialists [climate scientists], 96.2% (76 of 79) answered “risen” to question 1 and 97.4% (75 of 77) answered yes to question 2."

    Then you should of wrote that 97% of scientists think human activity is a "significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures". By changing the wording you changed the meaning. Causing is not synonymous with significant contributing factor. I went ahead and tracked down the survey and here is the EOS article where someone got those "facts" you were quoting.
    http://tigger.uic.edu/~pdoran/012009_Doran_fina...
    Unfortunately the study/survey is not available for free or for that matter to replicate but there was a study the previous year which show similar results but looks deeper than just 2 questions.
    http://www.climatesci.org/publications/pdf/Brow...
    An online poll of scientists’ opinions shows that, while there is strong agreement on the important role of anthropogenically-caused radiative forcing of CO2in climate change and with the largest group supporting the IPCC report, there is not a universal agreement among climate scientists about climate science as represented in the IPCC’s WG1. The claim that the human input of CO2 is not an important climate forcing is found to be false in our survey. However, there remains substantial disagreement about the magnitude of its impacts. The IPCC WG1 perspective is the mean response, though there are interesting differences between mean responses in the USA and in the EU. There are, also, a significant number of climate scientists who disagree with the IPCC WG1 perspective.

    From the initial response, we conclude that:

    1. The largest group of respondents (45-50%) concur with the IPCC perspective as given in the 2007 Report.

    2. A significant minority (15-20%), however, conclude that the IPCC understated the seriousness of the threat from human additions of CO2 .

    3. A significant minority (15-20%), in contrast, conclude that the IPCC overstated the role of human additions of CO2 relative to other climate forcings.

    4. Almost all respondents (at least 97%) conclude that the human addition of CO2 into the atmosphere is an important component of the climate system and has contributed to some extent in recent observed global average warming.


    This may be a small point to you but when talking about scientific issues I find being precise very important.

    Now laying all that aside and treating your presumptions as correct we are still faced with a cost benefit analysis of what to do and what resulting effect it would have.




















  • DLS
    To the extent that there may be a "need" (or at least a justified desire) to Do Something (if not NOW!),

    "we are still faced with a cost benefit analysis of what to do and what resulting effect it would have"

    This has not merely been deliberately neglected by the activists. This has actually been opposed.
blog comments powered by Disqus
© 2005-2009 The Moderate Voice | Site design by Elegant Themes | Site customization, hosting, and security by Enxit Group, LLC