Guns and Tourism
A few Arizona public officials including the Mayor of Phoenix and the Director of State Tourism are upset to learn that Arthur Frommer of the famous Frommer’s Travel Guides has decided not to recommend Arizona as a travel destination due to its laws permitting the carrying of visible firearms. This statewide right was recently on display thanks to a dozen people attending various rallies outside the Phoenix Convention Center as President Obama addressed the Convention of Veterans of Foreign Wars.
Perhaps the Arizona State Legislature never thought about out-of-state tourists when it expanded its gun laws under the 2nd Amendment. Arizona is not the only state that has such open firearms laws but due to recent nationally and internationally televised coverage, many more people know where Arizona stands on this constitutional issue, and how some residents are prone to act.
Mr. Frommer and other travel guides and agents can make whatever recommendations they believe are in the best interests of their readers and clients. Arizonans cannot compel people to visit their state if they feel the least bit intimidated, threatened or unsafe. Certainly Arizona does not rank among the world’s danger spots such as Iraq, North Korea, Nigeria, or even parts of Mexico, but public perceptions are important considerations when people decide where to travel.
If tourism to Arizona drops off significantly due to outsiders’ fears of its gun laws and itchy-finger residents, it may force the State government and private enterprises to focus on developing new and sustainable alternative businesses so Arizona’s economy is not so heavily dependent upon tourism. Alternately, Arizona could market to certain outsiders that might wish to visit the state because they could carry their guns around in public. Those visitors might only partially offset the business lost from others who choose not to visit Arizona.
I learned how to fire rifles and pistols when I was young and growing up in Ohio. I have gone hunting and target shooting with friends and acquaintances in the past in Ohio, Michigan and upstate New York. I was taught all about gun safety, locks, and ensuring that I always knew where other people were located when I fired any weapon. It may be worthwhile to encourage every American to fully understand guns and their proper use and storage, whether they own one or not. Some gun owners have little or no firearms training and then too many preventable injuries and deaths occur among their friends and families due to their ignorance and lack of adequate safety instruction.
For the past 3 years, I have lived in Arizona. I do not own any firearm because there are children in my household and I have not seen the need for one when driving, walking, bicycling or taking public transit anywhere around Phoenix or elsewhere in the state. I am not engaged in any business enterprises that could necessitate having a gun for self-protection. Guns can be as dangerous as automobiles if in the wrong hands. Such a reality should justify similar licensing requirements for gun use and ownership as we have long expected for all drivers and car owners.
I see no need to debate the 2nd Amendment and its protections as recently clarified by the U.S. Supreme Court. However, the exercise of every right or freedom comes with equally important public responsibilities to our fellow citizens.
Perhaps if I lived in a dangerous neighborhood and had to walk around at night where I feared an attack from a criminal, I might consider openly carrying a gun. Of course if the criminal sneaks up and shoots me first, my gun would be rather useless. Alternately, if I shoot first and discover later that I shot an unarmed person who was not a criminal, then I could face serious criminal charges. I was never trained in gun-fighting or hand-to-hand self-defense, and neither are most gun owners. I simply avoid bad neighborhoods at night unless I am passing through in a vehicle.
I would not bring any firearm (loaded or unloaded) to a place of public assembly in broad daylight where there are already plenty of police to keep order. I would not be afraid of dropping it and having it misfire and thereby injuring someone or causing a small riot. However, I would be more concerned that someone might try to take it while I was distracted or jostled by the crowd and then it would be fired at the gathering or later used in some crime. It is unwise to wrestle over a gun with another person while innocent bystanders are around.
There is no denying that a person who openly carries a gun appears rather intimidating to those who are unarmed. That is where the police get some of their obvious and needed authority over citizens and criminals. But the police are trained in the proper use of guns in very limited situations and must continuously maintain their firearms skills for the protection of the general public. I have no desire to intimidate others by a show of force. I do not fear the vast majority of my fellow citizens, regardless of their political, economic, social or religious views.
I do not need to brandish a firearm in public to appear more macho, menacing or impressive compared to other people without guns. The vast majority of people in civilized societies are governed by overriding basic tenants of ethics and morality that we do not intentionally hurt or intimidate others, particularly in our public places and in our private transactions.
Why would someone need to carry a gun, either concealed or out in the open, where little or no threat of injury, assault or crime exists in most of our public places?
The standard responses “because I can” or “you never know what could happen” or “I’m protecting my freedoms from the government” are wholly inadequate from any logical, legal, rational or safety standpoint.
The last response is purely delusional.
A likely justification for openly carrying a gun at a public gathering could be “I’m compensating for a small male private part” but that would also be an “inadequate” rationale. Mr. Frommer and I should ask a question of these attention-craving narcissists milling among other citizens who are peaceably expressing their 1st Amendment rights. “In light of your significant responsibilities to the rest of the general public, please explain your purpose in waiving those guns?”
38 Responses to “Guns and Tourism”
It really boils down to context. Are you a shop owner? Then a visible sign of gun ownership may deter theft Courier? Same. Bank Teller- sure why not. Kindergarten teacher? Umm…no. Taking your Glock to the PTA meeting or other public instances just shows a clear lack of propriety and common sense. Bringing an assault-style rifle to a Town Hall is just asking for a full body cavity search. Just because you can own one doesn't mean you need to wear it like a pair of old BVD's all the time.
If tourism to Arizona drops off significantly due to outsiders’ fears of its gun laws and itchy-finger residents, it may force the State government and private enterprises to focus on developing new and sustainable alternative businesses so Arizona’s economy is not so heavily dependent upon tourism. Alternately, Arizona could market to certain outsiders that might wish to visit the state because they could carry their guns around in public. Those visitors might only partially offset the business lost from others who choose not to visit Arizona.
It sounds like a public relations problem to me. If Arizona's citizens decide that fall-off of tourism is too great a price for having passed open-carry laws, then they'll have to re-visit the question at the polls.
That said — your reference to “itchy fingers” and “brandishing a weapon in public” are a bit odd. I don't follow local Arizona news, so I don't know — Have there been shooting incidents by legal gun owners? Have people been “brandishing” legally carried weapons?
“Why would someone need to carry a gun, either concealed or out in the open, where little or no threat of injury, assault or crime exists in most of our public places?”
How naive…this was said of every place where there was subsequently a mass murder shooting.
The current criminal scene in America demands every responsible citizen to arm and familiarize themselves with guns and the gun culture. This is now and has always been your CIVIC DUTY.
Marc – Like you I live in Arizona. A couple of weeks prior to the President's appearance in Phoenix there was a young man “practicing” ROTC manuevers in the desert, including wearing camoflage clothing and openly carrying a rifle. Local hikers reported his presence and a squad of police descended upon, and arrested, the young man charging him with Disorderly Conduct as I recall. Local news helicopters were on scene to capture the incident on tape for the evening newscasts. Have you heard a logically consistent explanation of the difference between that and the police non-reaction to gun carrying protesters outside the Obama event?
It's probably worth pointing out, btw, that Arizona isn't the only open carry state. If Arthur Frommer is singling out Arizona, then he's sadly uninformed on the issue. Or is he planning to add New Hampshire, (and the other states) to his boycott, but hasn't gotten around to reading up on things?
I'm a gun owner as well and if Georgia had an open carry law, I don't think my wife and I would. I like the whole concealed notion (had a CCW in Michigan and I'd rather surprise a criminal) but that's me.
As far as Arizona goes, this is one of those wait-and-see situations. Will people not come to Arizona for tourism now? I don't think Arizona's tourism will fall-off much simply because we don't hear much about big gunfights in the state! LOL!
Looking at the list of open-carry states Frommer will be pretty busy revising his guides.
“However, the exercise of every right or freedom comes with equally important public responsibilities to our fellow citizens.”
It's a road to a dark destination that is paved with insistence on corresponding “responsibilities” or “duties.”
And why is Frommer debasing itself by hopping aboard the anti-gun current-fad-form bandwagon?
I don't see this hurting Arizona's tourism industry. I don't see this keeping other Americans from visiting. Most of the world knows we are a little gun happy. It is something they know before they get here….and some of them think it's cool
While I understand Marc's comparison of guns to automobiles, and his advocating licensure for both, there is a legal distinction between the two because the right to bear arms is constitutionally protected. There is no right to own or operate a vehicle. There may be practical similarities, but the law must treat them as apples and oranges.
Recognizing that distinction does not mean that the right to own guns necessarily means that their use cannot be regulated. In Arizona, as the pertinent example, open display of guns is permitted, but discharging a firearm within city limits is a criminal offense in most major municipalities. (If you've ever had a rattlesnake in your backyard, you'll understand why many Arizonans don't much care for that restriction).
Interesting question in response to T_Steel's observation that this has yet to play out: Will the Supreme Court's decision interpreting the the Second Amendment one day create the kind of controversy that now surrounds Roe v. Wade, the “blowback” coming this time from the left rather than the right?
I would agree that most Americans won't avoid Arizona because of open carry laws, but I can certainly see it affecting international tourism. If you come from a place where not even the police regularly carry guns openly, seeing a person with a gun is terrifying. Even if you do see police with guns, it can be extremely jarring — I can recall travelling to the Pampas of Argentina and getting very uncomfortable passing the military guards in their burets with their giant automatic weapons; at least I had a reasonable expectation that the guards were well-trained in safe use of their weapons.
As for the rest of the post, I would agree with the OP that it just seems so counterintuitive to think you're going to save the day by carrying a gun into a public place. It reminds me of the story a while back where a dude was holding up a Burger King, and one of the other patrons pulled out his gun to stop him; it ended with the robber dead and the “save-the-day-with-my-gun” guy seriously injured but not dead. The gun carrier was hearalded as some sort of hero. I saw it as a case where this dude basically escalated a gunfight situation in a public place, with lots of innocent bystanders just ripe for the crossfire — for the sake of literally *hundreds* of dollars. I don't consider that a hero, I consider that a guy untrained in the idea that maybe the human lives of the other people around might just be more important than a few Benjamins and some sort of self-righteous vigilante justice.
roro…you can travel to many major European cities and see soldiers walking around with automatic rifles in the train stations or even out on the street.
as a CC Permit holder, I have to agree with roro above. I was involved in a bank robbery a few years back and wasn't carrying at the time (illegal to carry in a bank) but if I were carrying I wouldn't have drawn as at no time did I feel that anyone's life was truly in danger.
As it were, I followed the masked suspect out, waited for him to remove his mask and positively ID'ed him. Police picked him up a few blocks away and it was over quickly.
Gun Owners have a responsibility to be educated and properly trained. Its an ongoing process that should not be taken lightly.
Herb
http://www.handguntraining.net
shannonlee…yeah, I know. Most police officers don't carry guns in most of Europe, though. Guns are not something that anyone but criminals have there, and seeing one on a civilian means “criminal”.
Polimom, “Arizona isn't the only open carry state. If Arthur Frommer is singling out Arizona, then he's sadly uninformed on the issue. Or is he planning to add New Hampshire”
That's an interesting point. Other than this posting by Marc, I have not read anything about Frommer's decision. Is it possible that Frommer made his decision because tourists might feel unsafe with so many firearms in open sight? (In other words do the residents of AZ carry open firearms in public more than the people of NH or other “open carry” states?)
We all know how otherwise sane citizens become upset, say things and get into fights that they later regret. When people start carrying guns then the more people will be injured and killed.
I'm sure Frommer doesn't recommend that tourists visit dangerous areas. So it follows that if more people in AZ carry guns openly than in pther states, then the unarmed tourists would feel unsafe.
While most people who carry guns openly may do so responsibly, it only takes one nut job to shoot and kill someone. How does a tourist without a gun protect him/herself from people who are carrying guns?
At any rate, AZ is free to pass the laws that they believe serve their interests the best. But to every law there are consequences. AZ can't complain about the hostile and intimidating environment they are promoting if others don't like it.
People who will not go to Arizona because of gun laws can hide under their bed instead for their vacation.
True roro, but most european travelers are well-educated and well-informed. They understand the attitudes about guns in America and wouldn't be surprised to see a gun on a civilian in the “wild west” of Arizona. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of this discussion, but I don't think those who would be shocked would keep their friends from visiting in the future.
I guess the few anecdotes of my European friends are just that: anecdotes. It still wouldn't surprise me if the European attitude toward guns were to have an effect, especially if Frommer's comes in different languages.
Hope it does scare them. Have you tried to get a tee time at Troon lately?
“How does a tourist without a gun protect him/herself from people who are carrying guns?”
Tell them to try Washington DC if it makes them feel safer, no one is allowed to carry guns there. Fact is places like this are safer as a result of open gun laws. People worry about responsible gun owners going nuts and randomly shooting people but does anyone know of a case where someone with a non-violent background carrying a piece is actually caught doing that? I
co – Pretty easy to get a tee time at Troon courses this time of year. January's a different story. On the other hand, if you can afford Troon “in season” you can afford a personal security detail & don't need to carry a gun.
Btw, guns should decidedly be outlawed on golf courses. Imagine the increase in the murder and suicide rates if golfers had immediate access to deadly weapons when they lost a “press” or chunked a wedge for the match.
lol,,,,
Arrogance always comes with a price tag. Ouchies! That's gotta hurt AZ..
“People who will not go to Arizona because of gun laws can hide under their bed instead for their vacation.”
Yup, they can do that, too. But the point is that they won't spend their tourist dollars in AZ. How large an impact the law will have is unknown.
But AZ should not complain if their laws keep people away or generate negative press.
@@Pretty easy to get a tee time at Troon courses this time of year. January's a different story. On the other hand, if you can afford Troon “in season” you can afford a personal security detail & don't need to carry a gun.@@
Actually, I tried for an early time yesterday, but couldn't get one……….they're still charging $140 this summer. (I flew into Scottsdale for the weekend…….I keep a house in PV……….small world, huh?)
As far as I'm concerned, Maricopa County is overrun……..with or without tourists. I don't know what the people on this thread are talking about.
co -
Sorry I missed you. had a 7:16 at McCormick Ranch…not quite as good a course, but still fun. Next time here, let me know…maybe I can talk one of my member-friends into a round at Desert Mountain.
Back on topic. As an Arizonan I want to get this straight. I can't ride my bicycle if I've been drinking, and I can't walk out my front door naked at 5:00 am to get the paper…but, 25 friends and I can get stinking drunk, don our camoflage speedos and parade down the street carrying our 30-06's.
What a country.
I'll look for the picture of you weaving round on your bicycle on the new traffic violation cams……remember to wave!
See column on this topic at http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Ex…
Sounds good, co. I think we could survive politics…as long as we leave our guns home…though we could shoot up some paper targets at Scottsdale Gun Club. Don't know where Johnny V's is; always game for a new place. Btw, used to live in PV…Scottsdale Rd at roughly Indian Bend. Moved way north Scottsdale.
New question for the thread. Will tourism suffer if two commenters from TMV get together for golf & dinner in Arizona?
Majstoll – Thanks for the link. Makes it look like we Arizonans are a mite touchy on this subject, and like Frommer is a mite under-informed on the subject generally.
“Will the Supreme Court's decision interpreting the the Second Amendment one day create the kind of controversy that now surrounds Roe v. Wade”
Hopefully not. The two are not the same in any way.
“They understand the attitudes about guns in America and wouldn't be surprised to see a gun on a civilian in the 'wild west' of Arizona.”
Aside from visiting the Grand Canyon, it's not surprising if they enjoy a mock gunfight in Tombstone, too.
“As far as I'm concerned, Maricopa County is overrun……..with or without tourists”
Prior to the bubble bursting, did development extend all the way north (solidly) to Cave Creek?
And has Ben Avery been displaced by development, or legal games, or liability concerns, yet?
Related to my question:
“All firearms must be in a case or properly holstered to enter the main range. (Gun socks and scabbards will no longer be allowed as a substitute.)”
http://www.azgfd.gov/outdoor_recreation/ben_ave…
I guess Arthur Frommer has his opinion. Problem is most states have pro open carry laws. Maybe Arthur should stick to European travel.
DLS – You asked “did development extend all the way north (solidly) to Cave Creek?”
Still does. A new Wal-Mart scheduled to go in at Cave Creek Rd. & Carefree Hwy. Very controversial among the exurbanites. Also new YMCA just completed & new Community College under construction.
No guns allowed at any of these new projects. Kidding…just trying to tie to the subject of the post.
“I learned how to fire rifles and pistols when I was young and growing up in Ohio. I have gone hunting and target shooting with friends and acquaintances in the past in Ohio, Michigan and upstate New York. I was taught all about gun safety, locks, and ensuring that I always knew where other people were located when I fired any weapon.”
Yeah . . . . and I have black friends ! LOL Come off it; you don't support freedom for Americans and that's all there is to it !
Why would someone need to carry a gun, either concealed or out in the open, where little or no threat of injury, assault or crime exists in most of our public places?
Now that is a funny statement. So you know when a violent crime is going to happen? Or just when it is going to happen to you?
Check out this video, it is from a Senate hearing I think from 1996 http://bit.ly/Eevbm
“Why would someone need to carry a gun, either concealed or out in the open, where little or no threat of injury, assault or crime exists in most of our public places?”
Why would you carry Home/Renter's Insurance when there is little to no chance you will need it?
Why would you own a fire extinguisher? Are you planning on there being a fire?
Why do you eat healthy now, when you may die of an unnatural cause anyway?
Sound ludicrous? I hope you see my point then.
Statistics show that Licensed gun owners are one of the lowest demographics in regards to criminal convictions. For example, in 2007 out of ALL criminal convictions in Texas, only 0.26% held a permit to carry. In other words, in Texas, you have more to worry about from the other 99.74% who do NOT have a license to carry. Food for thought, eh?