Chickens and Eggs: How Republicans Have Taken the Town-Hall Protests Too Far
“The American people remain anxious and confused about health care reform,” observes Marc Ambinder. “That is an underlying reality that Republican activists are so eager to exploit.” Yes, but it is also Republican activism — in the form of lies, distortions, and propagandistic fearmongering — that has manufactured much of the confusion and anxiety out there.
Otherwise, Ambinder is right that “the loudest voices [have] tended to be the craziest, the most extreme, the least sensible, and the most easy to mock.” Again, though, this has been what Republicans wanted, an angry mob from the fringes of the party and the conservative movement — or rather from the base itself, much of which lies on the outer fringe of American society — disrupting deliberative democratic discourse and the educational efforts of the pro-reform side with a lack of “restraint” and without even “approximate truths” on their side.
“Unrestrained,” he continues, “these town hall meetings are going to turn off the type of voters Republicans most need to pressure Blue Dog Democrats — independents who don’t have red genes or blue genes.” Yes, but, then, Republicans are themselves unrestrained at the moment and, once the fog of lies, distortions, and fearmongering is lifted, it is precisely what Republicans stand for, both the policies and the propaganda, that is turning people off. In other words, if “conservatives are blowing their chance” (the title of Ambinder’s post), it is only because conservatism itself blows — that is, it’s not just the strategy but the substance. Republicans are losing this battle because of what they stand for, an increasingly extremist right-wing ideology that includes opposition to reform, not just because their town-hall activism has gotten out of hand.
(Cross-posted from The Reaction.)
28 Responses to “Chickens and Eggs: How Republicans Have Taken the Town-Hall Protests Too Far”
“Yes, but it is also Republican activism — in the form of lies, distortions, and propagandistic fearmongering — that has manufactured much of the confusion and anxiety out there.”
Wrong, as usual. It is that fact that there is no concrete bill on which people can debate that is resulting in the lies, distortions and propogandistic fearmongering – mostly from the Mr. Obama and Congressional Democrats, in my view. If an actual Bill had been produced, there would be something to debate on it's merits. Since there is no Bill, there is really nothing to debate.
I disagree completely about the end effect. Before the last election someone (sorry forgot who) carried out extensive research on what drives “independents.” In general (so no one get offended) they were the least informed, had the lowest ability to articulate what they were looking for in a politician and were more likely to jump on the bandwagon at the last second based on what seemed most popular or vote based on an arbitrary impression that had little to do with policy.
The conclusion was that far from the image of independents sagaciously weighing both sides, they were mercurial, flighty and most susceptible to targeted propaganda.
I'd have to agree with Mr Stickings on this one. Although PWT is right that the lack of an actual plan to debate hasn't helped, there is too much obstructionism and distortion coming from the right to take a lot of these protests completely seriously. This is too bad since the House plan is certainly deserving of criticism and I think many the protesters are sincere and have some valid concerns. They are letting the kooks be the public face of the protest.
Let's see how long it takes our friends on the right to address the TWO elephants in the room:
and
Great article Michael… thanks.
“Since there is no Bill, there is really nothing to debate.”
Actually bills have been presented by both Senate or House committees.
it is only because conservatism itself blows — that is, it’s not just the strategy but the substance. Republicans are losing this battle because of what they stand for, an increasingly extremist right-wing ideology that includes opposition to reform, not just because their town-hall activism has gotten out of hand
It is only because liberalism itself sucks — that is, it’s not just the strategy but the lack of substance. Democrats are losing this battle because of what they stand for, an increasingly extremist left-wing ideology that includes communist/socialist takeover disguised as reform, not just because their town-hall union goon squads attempts at squelching dissent has gotten out of hand.
Perfect examples of both the elephants in the room.
Elephant #1 – lies, distortions, and propagandistic fearmongering and
Elephant #2 – the craziest, the most extreme, the least sensible, and the most easy to mock.
Thanks for the twofer AustinRoth.
mikkel, I've heard several of the Congressmen and women state though that there currently is no bill. So, if people are confused about that, then that is probably the main source of disinformation- the legislators seem more comfortable fending off questions by saying that they can't say whether they'll vote up or down because the bills haven't come to the floor for a vote first. The alternative of actually explaining what their views are on the bills that have come through committees seems to be too difficult or politically inexpedient for them to discuss with their constituents.
I have to admit I don't really watch the news or listen to politicians. Whenever I do by accident I'm amazed that our country is still functioning at all.
Steve -
Gee, sorry you missed the mockery. I thought you were quicker on the uptake.
And if you really think I am “the craziest, the most extreme, the least sensible, and the most easy to mock”, then there is your proof the Left is losing. I am among the most moderate in my resistance to Obamacare. Hell, if I make you nervous, you have no hope.
BTW – you have no hope.
Extremism and violence among protesters is not a new development, nor are the current versions even in the same weight class as the immediately preceding generation, Michael.
http://www.poligazette.com/2009/08/12/rememberi…
Looks like Jason just stopped by to trash a TMV Asst. Editor and than try to lure the debate back to a site where he can control the debate… too funny.
The opponents of the legislation don't even give the town hall speakers time to talk. They aren't interested in talking, just shouting down. Ive seen the videos and the opposition is using free speech to stifle free speech. Its disgusting and my gut reaction is to immediately back whoever they are trying to stifle. No one I would side with would behave that way.
Yes, Steve. We have long ago established that I am an awful person, a hypocrite, and a irredeemable censor by virtue of having once banned you from a web site.
But since it is not all about you, perhaps we can spare a little attention for the question of whether Michael's condemnation of right-wing protesters is compatible with his long-standing and eager embrace of equally extreme rhetoric going the other way.
For that matter, can you?
Jason, I wish you'd stop trying to use this silly cop-out. My comment (today) was regarding your comment (today). PERIOD.
I have opinions and regularly comment at TMV.
You have opinions and have recently returned to TMV.
Your opinions and my opinions seldom mesh.
My comments at TMV will often disagree with your comments at TMV because we see the world differently.
SO, I would appreciate it if you'd stop falling back to the silly “poor me” BS you used (AGAIN) in your last remark.
You have a beef with Michael… fine but play it out here! Don't try to pull off a hit-and-run attacking a TMV assistant editor and then try to promote a site that prohibits opposing views. That is how I saw it and that (and only that) was my comment.
You mean everytime JA posts you will stop with the “make no point but trash JA posts”? Because he is right you always do it and it is always a personal attack with little or no reference to anything being discussed. Of course you then go on to say how he needs to quit using some past offence (that I don't know or care about) as a crutch, but you are always the one that goes off topic and gets personal. It's annoying at best.
In this case you didn't disagree you accused him of lurking and trying to steal readers and said nothing about the topic. Maybe that is why he falls back on “poor me” because you put nothing out to refute or post about aside from the personal attack
You disagree with me on my comment about Michael's post? Great. Let's see your disagreement expressed instead of just complaining again and again and again about a years-old personal slight, ok, Steve?
P.S. It's not “poor me”. I think SteveK's obsession is ridiculous and annoying, but it does not harm me in the slightest.
Actually much of what the President has put forth, regarding HR 3200 is just not so, and I'm being very charitable here. And that is the House vehicle and that's where the attention is being focused on. Since Ambinder has done very little examination of the bill's premises much less actual language. But it does
bring up a point, when did the left give up on Social Security reform, or trying to force troops out of Iraq, it hasn't regardless of the conditions on the ground.
Ambinder's attempt to get back in the good graces of the agitprop Comintern has flunked and the latest Gallup gives a 61% approval of the vigorous protests against a ridiculously slipshod open-ended “reform” fiasco so silly that Camille Paglia has now called for Pelosi to step down after calling protesters “swastika-waving [Nazis].”
Her putdown of agitpreppies like Stickings is priceless: “The ethical collapse of the left was nowhere more evident than in the near total silence of liberal media and Web sites at the Obama administration's outrageous solicitation to private citizens to report unacceptable “casual conversations” to the White House. If Republicans had done this, there would have been an angry explosion by Democrats from coast to coast. I was stunned at the failure of liberals to see the blatant totalitarianism in this incident, which the president should have immediately denounced. His failure to do so implicates him in it.”
Camille and Gallup represent the true America that the TMV cadres and their ilk long ago abandoned.
“P.S. It's not “poor me”. I think SteveK's obsession is ridiculous and annoying, but it does not harm me in the slightest. “
I was using his term not trying to imply that was what I thought you were doing.
Steve is right about Jason.
Poor, poor, Mikey, spewing waste again.
As far as Ambinder, it's just a moment where the Atlantic risks being confused with the Militant. Sad to say, the liberal media in general is aping such misbehavior and insulting the better public with its blatant poltiical agenda in addition to its mischaracterization of growing obvious public opposition to this latest and worst misconduct by Obama (not only hinting at being like Napolean now, but even a bit like good old Captain Ahab, so desperate to get the House junk bill passed in large measure) and the Congressional Dems.
“when did the left give up on Social Security reform”
When is it ever going to _begin_ such reform?
When is it ever going to begin reform of Medicare, for that matter? You know, before trying its latest rushed, destructive attempt at legislative lunacy?
That would be expecting too much of it, once again.
“the latest Gallup gives a 61% approval of the vigorous protests against a ridiculously slipshod open-ended 'reform' fiasco”
The thing is, the remnants on the low end of the IQ bell curve who still fervently favor this effort can't even grasp the simple facts such as the slipshod nature of this and _previous_ Democratic efforts, beginning with the bank bailout follies and the “stimulus” pitiful-results-producting follies and only getting worse from there.
[shrug] Maybe these people (and others elsewhere, like Mikey) don't care or actually _like_ such poor behavior and destructive results. Many of us expect better, though, and more and more of the rest of the public is starting to object at what they are learning about, as well as experiencing so far this year.
Obama's Ratings Slide Across the Board
The Economy, Health Care Reform and Gates Grease the Skids
http://people-press.org/report/532/obamas-ratin…
The hypocrisy of SteveK being allowed to endlessly harangue me about deleting his comments (over a year ago!) while my comments asking him to actually state his disagreement on the actual topic are removed by someone is pretty thick.
Though I said I was not going to comment further Jason (and a TMV editor) have made that impossible.
MORE censorship has taken place in this thread than has taken place at TMV since Jason and Michael left.
dr. e just reminded a new poster that:
Mr. Arvak, a long time enforcer of TMV policy, has done both in this thread and now… AGAIN Jason is allowed to cover his tracks with censorship.
I thought that phase was over… I thought that we ALL had rules that we ALL had to play by… I thought what we wrote here was here to either affirm or damn us.
Guy you're a nut “self-censorship”? Really? You can hate what he said but he was addressing the post in his comment. Nothing in your comment addressed the post or JAs comment at all. Rather you were just bitching that he made one and you always make reference to things in the past everytime JA posts anything. What's with the drama queen BS?
I get a chuckle out of this. Your premise is that conservatives are fear mongers and on the fringes and thus incapable of rational debate. I guess you conveniently forgot to mention the far left wacko's who in their mission to move the country as far left a possible are trying hard to quiet any dissent.
Lets get a couple things straight; 1) I am an independent conservative and find much to be desired with the current Republican party, 2) I strongly support the individuals right right to free thought and speech, even the far out leftist wacko's, 3) I believe limited government is by far superior to intrusive government that results in loss of individual liberties, 4) I am a true free market proponent and find the intrusion of the government bureaucracy into the engines of our countries productive capacity revolting, 5) I believe that Supreme court Justices are acting properly under the Constitution when they interpret the law in direct relationship the the Constitution, 6) I believe that a rational debate, including all parties impacted by health care reform, need to work to arrive at a long term workable solution. One that does not ultimately diminish the quality of health care we currently enjoy or result in rationing of care.
We are by and large a conservative nation that elected a relative unknown without a track record simply because we wanted change. We plainly had had enough of George Bush and felt that Barrack Hussein Obama represented the best alternative to the immediate past. All this is underatandabe. What I fail to understand is how a nation of intelligent and hard working people failed to see the man for what he really is, a socialist in the worst of European molds at best, and quite possibly a Marxist at worst.
I am sure you view my remarks as crazy, that I am a far right wing nut that sings the party line. To which I respond, so you say. The thought given by most independent conservatives far exceeds the thought given by the far left (socialists/Marxist) in this country. But that is just one mans opinion. And I would fight to the death to insure your right to your beliefs and your right to speak freely in support of them. Would you do the same?
In closing I will comment that the debate over health care needs to continue, with both sides being heard, the ledt needs to stop calling dissent and activism UN-American (but I suppose to the left if you don't agree with them you are UN-American), the magnitude of this issue requires time and a fair amount of it to insure whatever the final results we get it right and don't bankrupt the country.
Les Carpenter III
Rational Nation USA
http://rationalnationusa.blogspot.com