I don't know Kathy but I'd say we are on a roll here.

“Besides, aren't most pedophiles straight men going after young girls?”

A lot of anti-gay groups use statistics to “proove” that gay men are more likely to molest children than other people. Their number is “30% of molesations of children are committed by gay men, while gay people represent only 3% of the population”. They do this not only using bad statistics for how many people are gay, but they also do this by the terrible logical gymnastics that says that any man who rapes an underage boy is gay. So, basically, 30% of child molestations are committed by men on young boys, so that's how they come up with their statistics. If you look at the stats with real world logic, of course, you come up with numbers that show that a gay man is about as likely to molest an underage person as a straight person, which is exactly what anyone would expect. I'm currently looking for all the stats and a wonderful piece that takes them down, but I'm just not finding it.

As far as sharing personal stories on here… well it's not something I prefer to do, but when we start sharing stories this becomes a community. I appreciate the shares of others, so I believe it's important to share my story as well. It's clear that we're all individuals. The more we share our stories the more other people will understand that there's no one “right” experience or set of beliefs. Sil and Father Time and others are welcome to their beliefs, but they cross the line when they think that we should change our feelings. I'm not asking these folks to change the way they live (and they wouldn't). So why do they feel they have the right to ask me to change for their benefit- particularly since they don't even know me?

I continue to view pedophiles as “dirty old men”. Besides, aren't most pedophiles straight men going after young girls?

What came across to me was, as you said, we are unique individuals, yet we all share a common core of wanting to find where we belong inside ourselves and to be accepted by others. It is almost never an easy journey for anyone, male, female, straight, gay, bi, or whatever.

One aspect of your story did strike me, however, and that is what appears to be an association of pedophilia to gayness, rather than an inappropriate sexual desire of an adult toward a child. I am going to assume, although it was not spelled out, that you have overcome that. It is however indicative of how many people think, unfortunately, even those who should know better. That association was prevalent in the past, and probably still is to a surprising amount today.

You can if you're a politician…

As for my younger days… In some ways we are similar. I knew that I was attracted to guys pre-puberty. I was also raised believing that I would marry and have children. I didn't think anything of my attraction to guys because it was just what I was attracted to. I had a passing attraction to women, but not like guys. Early puberty I think I paid attention to women because I was “supposed” to, and that's what all the guys I knew were doing.

Anyway, one afternoon when I was about 11 or 12 years old I heard a newscast about a couple men being arrested for being pedophiles. I asked my mom about it and she explained enough for me to know that what they did were wrong. I connected their actions with my feelings, but I knew that I wasn't “bad”. Around that time I started to fool around with a couple guys from school. I knew I had to keep it cool, because such play was “wrong”. And I even slept with women around that time.

But I really liked guys and I never thought I was a “bad person” even though I knew that some of what I did with other guys was bad (but then again having sex with girls was bad too at that age- but at least other guys didn't make fun of sex with girls).

A couple years later, when I was 17 I realized that my playing around with other guys was exactly what everyone was referring to when they made jokes about “fags” and exactly what those pedophiles were doing. And I realized that I was one of those “bad” people! Except I didn't feel like a “bad” person. I wasn't raised to be a bad person. I was raised to be married and have kids. I couldn't be “that way”. So when this huge realization hit me I was very upset and cried for two weeks. It was horrible.

I insisted to my mom that I see a psychiatrist. Even though I was close to Mom, I was so ashamed of “what I was” that I couldn't talk to her. And I'm sure her feelings were hurt. But Mom found a psychologist (instead of a psychiatrist). I went every other week for a year or so, until I graduated from high school. The psychologist was great and told me to be careful to not lock myself into being gay, that it might be a phase. But the psychologist was also supportive of me.

To add a little more color…. the couple guys I had fooled around with at the start of puberty were different than the guys I went to high school with. I went to public school for most of my life, then went to a private high school (I've talked on here before about going to a Catholic HS, even though my family isn't Catholic). I actually never messed around with any of the guys in my high school and yet they called me fag, etc. I always denied it. And in fact I knew that some of them fooled around with each other regularly, including the “star quarterback” on the football team. My few good friends in high school were girls and they knew about me.

I have other experiences about being gay (and closeted, for the most part) in a Catholic high school, but those will have to wait until another time.

Thanks for sharing and I hope my own share is illuminating. This part of my story is not something I talk about too often. It's very personal and very painful, including some of the other experiences that need to wait for another day.

First, thanks for reading my lengthy comments. As to you being the rare one…. I think you have some great experience, insight and are tuned into your own sexual development than most people, and probably even more than many gay guys. I think that the discussion between you and roro80 proves that there is a huge wealth of knowledge gained through different experiences out there. All being right for that that individual.

I'll share a little more of my experiences in the response I'm about to give to Lit3Bolt. I thought about putting my experiences in an earlier reply to your own share, but I didn't want to pull attention away from your great story. It feels right to share now after reading Lit3Bolt's comment. I hope you read my response to Lit3Bolt.

Thanks again and I'll see you out in the “normal” world of TMV shortly.

Now that I've thought about AustinRoth's statement I think I would frame it as someone whose tastes (sexual desires) change over time.

That is a pretty good, quick explanation of how it was for me. Maybe my experience is the rare one.

We are our own trainers and sometimes people train us [molestation]. The point is that sexuality and sexual fetishes are acquired and don't define a person as a subsect or minority of humanity since any person of any gender or race can be imprinted in any given way when it comes to sexuality.

The thing is we must decide which direction we want our kids to see as “normal”. Maybe a majority will decide that gay fetishes and not others are “normal” and then this conversation will be over. But for now a majority sees that heterosexuality is what we want future generations to aspire [train] to.

When I was young, I engaged in homosexual experimentation as well with boys in the neighborhood. It was all very innocent until I learned in school just how much stigma and out and out hatred there was to being gay. I felt terrible like I suddenly hate an evil secret I must hide from everyone, but as I matured through puberty, I started noticing that while I had my guy crushes, I was also staring at girls' breasts. A LOT. So needless to say I had a LOT of sexual confusion to work through in my teenage years, but mostly through *ahem* self-exploration (how's that for the old “sex is only for procreation” canard) I concluded that girls were for me.

More than anything, I think our sexual hang ups are due to the corrupting influence of Freude and Christian dogma, which have little to do with Christ and more to do with enforcing male superiority and neatly dividing our society into virgins, whores, or married.

With regards to, “In my shouting matches I usually end up trying to explain that just because YOU aren't bisexual, doesn't mean that other people aren't.”

Since homophobia exists I suppose the opposite might exist: some formerly bi guys who are now gay may feel threatened by their bi feelings. For many people it's easy to live in a pre-defined box with known rules. I made the following comment earlier on this thread, and it seems really appropriate here: “They [bi] seem more well balanced than many (NOT most, just many) “gay” or “straight” people, both of which I think try to live a certain “lifestyle” to fit in with what they are expected to be.”

But also I would ask the- the formerly “bi” guys (as far enough in advance in a situation where a shouting match might develop) if they believe in the Kinsey scale of human sexuality- the continuum…. As we know people will “dig in” around certain topics- and if they've struggled with their own sexuality, then it's particularly sensitive.

I agree with roro80 about settling down with one person as we get older. The type of relationship we're in might define in someone else's mind what our sexuality is. It's presumed that a man and wife are hetero…. When in fact both may be bisexual (or homosexual in the strictest sense of the word). A “preference” isn't necessarily limiting. I guess the easiest example (though more superficial by far) is that a lot of people talk about wanting to meet Mr. “Tall, Dark and Handsome” or “Prince Charming” but most end up marrying someone else….

Now that I've thought about AustinRoth's statement I think I would frame it as someone whose tastes (sexual desires) change over time. Just as our tastes today are different than what we liked as a kid our tastes will be different in 20 years…. I think older people (as an example) grow out of their desire for sweet foods.

Even though I've never thought of this before (I feel so stupid because it seems obvious) until I was thinking about AR's post that I didn't quite understand, I am willing to believe that some people (and probably bi people who are in the middle somewhere) do “change” or “switch” their sexual desire. Through no conscious decision (though for some it may be conscious)- just like an older person does not “choose” to lose their sweet tooth, though other people may stop eating sweets for other reasons.

I think my hang-up around AustinRoth's comment was that it seemed to be a conscious decision. I'm willing to believe that for people in the middle (true bi), who have no clear preference, it really may be more of a conscious decision than for those who steer closer to the two ends on the continuum. I can understand why some totally straight people might have a hard time believing that someone is gay. (And I also feel there are too many “straight” people out there who are homophobes because they are afraid of their own gay/bi feelings.)

If one is bi, but more “straight” on the continuum, then they may eventually settle down with someone of the opposite sex. And if someone is bi, but more “gay” on the continuum they may eventually settle down with someone of the opposite sex.

At any rate, I think AustinRoth has the conclusion absolutely right:

“But here is a great bottom line, IMHO – it is their business. Period.”

Well, from my experience, which is all I can draw on, I know very few, actually no, people in their mid-40's or older that remain actively bi, or that switch back and forth in long-term relationships, whether they have a life partner or not.

I am not saying they are not out there, but they truly are the exception from what I have seen. Nor am I saying that there is anything wrong with them, either, just to be clear. Just rare, as I said from my experience.

In the same vein, your comment that “We do tend to settle into a single orientation,” is something I disagree with. They haven't settled on one gender or another, they have settled with a life-long partner, that happens to have one gender or another.

I was sexually active starting at a young age, and was bi-sexual from the start. Around 16 – 17 or so I lived strictly as a gay man, then around 22 or so decided that it was not fulfilling, went back to being bi, then got married, then a few years later finally decided that I had lost interest in the gay life. However, many aspects of it remain with me, as it is part of my life experiences that shaped who I am today.

I celebrate 25 years of marriage next year, and am quite happy with my life choices, beginning to end (well, I hope it is not the end!)

I love your “sexuality is like food” analogy. Thanks for sharing your story! I wonder if we know each other in meat life.

re: bisexual stigma within the gay community. What I've come up with (through a few shouting matches with gay men who are absolutely *certain* that bisexuality doesn't actually exist): I think that a fair number of men who are gay started down their personal path toward coming out by realizing that they had same-sex feelings but weren't ready to give up the thought of being in a “normal” het family, not ready to give up the social standing that comes with that. And if it's just experimentation, and they can go either way, then they don't really have to tell their parents or their acquaintences — they can have their fun without dealing with the negatives (family, stigma, etc). They call themselves “bisexual”. Then when they realize that isn't working for them, when they can finally fully accept themselves as gay, they realize that their self-identification as bisexual was a lie. The problem, of course, is that they then think of bisexuals as people who just haven't fully accepted themselves as gay. In my shouting matches I usually end up trying to explain that just because YOU aren't bisexual, doesn't mean that other people aren't. Other people are actually different from you.

You probably noticed that was gay-man-only specific. Within the gay women community, it's a whole 'nuther can o' worms, and I think you touched on it in your comment. The delicate flower that is “masculinity” in the country doesn't let men just make out with each other for fun — casual “dabbling” in homosexuality isn't as common among men. Women? Heck, a lot of times it's done for the explicit purpose of getting the attention of straight males. So for an out lesbian, having a make-out session or relationship with a woman who isn't fully committed to being with women can seem a lot more dangerous.

Odd conclusions? Saying bi-sexuality is switching back and forth?

Why don't you read what I actually say before you belittle it. I made no such connection or conclusion, and no one else seemed to have the comprehension difficulties you seem to be experiencing.