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APA Reports: Sexual Orientation Cannot Be Changed
A two-year study conducted by the American Psychological Association on the effectiveness of “conversion” therapies in turning gay people straight has concluded what most rational people already knew: It cannot be done (emphasis mine).
The panel reviewed 83 peer-reviewed journal articles that appeared in English between 1960 and 2007. Most were conducted before 1978, and only a handful had been conducted in the last 10 years. “Unfortunately, much of the research … contains serious design flaws,” said psychologist Judith M. Glassgold of Rutgers University, who chaired the committee. “Few studies could be considered methodologically sound and none systematically evaluated potential harms” from the conversion efforts, she said. Potential harms include depression and suicide attempts.
“Scientifically rigorous older studies in this area found that sexual orientation was unlikely to change due to efforts designed for this purpose,” she said. “At most, certain studies suggested that some individuals learned how to ignore or not act on their homosexual attractions. Yet these studies did not indicate for whom this was possible, how long it lasted, or its long-term mental health effects.”
The APA report is here.
80 Responses to “APA Reports: Sexual Orientation Cannot Be Changed”
Silhouette: “I'll say it again: there will be exceptions always which we must tolerate and have empathy towards but we must never normalize them else we will have abnormal “queer” become normal.”
As a gay man I want to say you can take your “empathy” (or whatever) towards people with deviant sexual behavior and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.
I'm not looking for nor do I require your empathy for “abnormal” or “sick” or “deviant” people. Nor does any other self-respecting gay man or woman. Particularly from someone who feels they are “superior” because they consider themselves “normal”.
You can believe what you want, but that doesn't make it right. All it means is that your **personal beliefs** that gays are “abnormal” and “deviant” are in the minority. You're not part of the majority in your thinking.
So who's “deviant” now?
Nice flip SBSF! Sil should know that the word “normal” is a double-edged sword.
I'm so late to this party! Anyway, just a couple of points I'd like to make.
First, to Father Time's assertion that because being gay is not natural or normal means that gay people shouldn't have rights: well, many others have done an excellent job of showing you that it is natural and normal — it's about 5-10% of most mammal and marsupial species. On the other hand, let's take your premise that homosexuality is some sort of genetic flaw in the system, that it should be pathologized (note: I disagree vehemently with this premise, but let's explore starting from it anyway). Do we deny civil rights to those with genetic problems or issues? Do we say that a person with, for example, homoglobin problems, can't get married? Can a person with 6 fingers be fired from their job because of that genetic malformation? Do we bar people with bipolar disorder from living in our neighborhoods? No — we do not use these medical issues as a way to deny people rights.
Also, Father Time's bizarre conclusions about bisexuality due to men having only one penis defines sex by the use of a penis, as if even in male-female sex, the woman doesn't even matter at all. It's an extremely fallo-centric way to define sex, and while it's fairly typical within the context of straight men, most other people have a much broader sense of the term that doesn't bow down to the all-mighty manly bits. There are lots of other fun body parts that can fit into (ahem) the definition of the word, and these more inclusive definitions mean that it's fairly easy to figure out how to have sex with more than one person at a time.
And speaking of bisexuality, it's a topic that got quickly dropped after AustinRoth made some very odd conclusions about it; something about bisexuality being a change from one sexuality to another. I want to make it clear that this is not how it works for most bisexuals. Leaving out whether or not a person is born with a particular sexuality or whether it develops over time, people some how come out of puberty with a sexuality. But the sexuality is not a binary system consisting of gay/straight, but instead it is a contiuum. Most people fall on the “totally straight” or “mostly straight” side of the spectrum. Some fall on the “totally gay” or “mostly gay” side. There are a fair number of people who fall somewhere in the middle. This does not tell anyone who they will love, merely define a gender group from whom they'll find people sexually attractive. For bisexuals, that group of possible mates is merely a lot bigger. When a straight man breaks up with a female sexual partner, because he is straight his next partner will be female. Same deal with gay people. When a bisexual person breaks up with a member of the opposite sex, he or she might not be set on dating one gender or another, and therefore it's not unlikely that their next partner will be of the same sex. They changed their choice of partner, not their sexuality.
Now, why bisexuality seems to be so easily swept under the rug by both the straight and the gay communities, that's a whole new topic, touching on issues of acceptability within ones own culture (either gay or straight), and the fact that sometimes shades of grey are harder for people to deal with than picking black or white. That doesn't mean it's not a valid sexuality.
FT,
you need to get out more, or at least get current with most pornos. There's more to sex than the hole in the sheet missionary position.
See also, sex toys, aka “marital aids”
Austin, “OK, so how do you explain bi-sexuality, or those who do live one or the other lifestyle, happily, then without any outside persuasion change their orientation? Some, I would even say most from my personal experience, gays are 'hardwired', but I firmly believe some are environmental, and some are personal choice (or experimental).”
Before I begin my thoughts… You know I appreciate your opinion on this and I love the fact that you realize that you don't have all the answers and are open to others' views (even if you don't agree with them).
To be clear I'm not trying to “win” anything here…. I hope you take my comments in the spirit they're intended: as my own attempt to understand a complicated issue. You have good questions which I've struggled with myself. I hope my thoughts make sense and are illuminating.
To take a simple analogy, I think sexuality is like food…. why do some people prefer one food over another? Why do we like some foods at certain times, but not other times? I love lemonade with certain foods… but not all. Just because I choose not to drink lemonade all the time doesn't mean I don't like it… If I don't drink it, it just means that I'm not in the mood for it, or perhaps it means I've decided to drink something else.
Same with emotions…. and to add on… what is the “normal” human emotion? Does one define “normal” as being what most people feel the majority of the time? Is it happiness? If happiness is “normal”, then when we feel other emotions, i.e. anger or sadness, are those other emotions “deviant” or “abnormal” because they are not “normal”? I think the full range of emotions are “normal”.
Likewise with sexual desire…. There is a continuum of sexual desires and, like emotions I think they are all “normal”. Though I do recognize that there are some “fetishes” around sexual desire. A couple examples of fetishes are “leather” or “bondage”. Someone may be “totally” straight, totally “gay” or anywhere else along the sexual desire continuum yet be “turned on” by a fetish for leather, bondage or whatever… for sexual gratification.
To answer your question, “OK, so how do you explain bi-sexuality, or those who do live one or the other lifestyle, happily, then without any outside persuasion change their orientation?”
Well… if a person is married to one woman, that person is (generally speaking) not going to marry a second woman. But that doesn't mean that person is not interested in other people… It just means that the committment is to that woman (and perhaps family).
I also agree that some people who participate in same-sex activity may do so out of personal choice or experimental (but I think there has to be some sort of fundamental desire there to begin with). I know quite a few men who identify themselves as “straight” but are willing to participate in same-sex behaviors (some more so than others).
It's a complicated issue and no one (including me) has the answers. But I do know that I like men despite being raised with the expectation of marrying a woman and raising a family. And I also know that there are people out there who did get married and raise a family only to realize that they were really attracted to same-sex people. They did their best to suppress their feelings, but could not. I firmly believe that sexual desire falls along a continuum that we have from birth. Who we end up being with depends in part on circumstances. If I live in a small town, then I may remain single all my life. But if I move to a larger city and have the opportunity to meet like-minded people, then I may settle down with another guy.
Hope this is somewhat helpful. Sorry if it's too long. As always, thanks for your comments.
Thanks, Shannon.
roro: “Now, why bisexuality seems to be so easily swept under the rug by both the straight and the gay communities, that's a whole new topic, touching on issues of acceptability within ones own culture (either gay or straight), and the fact that sometimes shades of grey are harder for people to deal with than picking black or white.”
Excellent point and I'm always surprised that many people in the gay community don't like bisexuals. I don't know if a gay guy doesn't want to date a bi guy because that bi guy might dump him for a more “socially acceptable” woman or if something else is at play. Personally I like bi people. They seem more well balanced than many (NOT most, just many) “gay” or “straight” people, both of which I think try to live a certain “lifestyle” to fit in with what they are expected to be.
Shannonlee–
I understand your annoyance. Silhouette used to be much more strident in her assertions that science was on her side. Reality being what it is, she eventually gave up that much at least. (You should read that whole thread–it's quite amazing.)
I think the respectful patience that her viewpoint is accorded by people like you, StockBoySF, Kastanj, Roro80, Nic Rivera, Kathy K and so many others is awesome.
I just thought you all deserved to complemented.
Sb – always enjoy our discussions. I meant my comment narrowly to the conjecture that all gays are hardwired, and cannot change. That I disagree with.
I do agree most are hardwired. Some are not. I do know that very few people I know stay bi, or cross back and forth, as they get older. We do tend to settle into a single orientation. Perhaps that does support the hardwired theory, but shows that it just takes some people longer than others to have the wiring set itself, so to speak.
I certainly knew kids who were absolutely set, either way, by as early as 10 – 12 years old. (that was back in the days that being sexually active at a young age wouldn't get us thrown in jail or the nut-house)
FT -
there is a difference between Brain and Mind
Hmm. Yes, and I am trying to decide if you have either.
roro -
Odd conclusions? Saying bi-sexuality is switching back and forth?
Why don't you read what I actually say before you belittle it. I made no such connection or conclusion, and no one else seemed to have the comprehension difficulties you seem to be experiencing.
SFStockBoy —
I love your “sexuality is like food” analogy. Thanks for sharing your story! I wonder if we know each other in meat life.
re: bisexual stigma within the gay community. What I've come up with (through a few shouting matches with gay men who are absolutely *certain* that bisexuality doesn't actually exist): I think that a fair number of men who are gay started down their personal path toward coming out by realizing that they had same-sex feelings but weren't ready to give up the thought of being in a “normal” het family, not ready to give up the social standing that comes with that. And if it's just experimentation, and they can go either way, then they don't really have to tell their parents or their acquaintences — they can have their fun without dealing with the negatives (family, stigma, etc). They call themselves “bisexual”. Then when they realize that isn't working for them, when they can finally fully accept themselves as gay, they realize that their self-identification as bisexual was a lie. The problem, of course, is that they then think of bisexuals as people who just haven't fully accepted themselves as gay. In my shouting matches I usually end up trying to explain that just because YOU aren't bisexual, doesn't mean that other people aren't. Other people are actually different from you.
You probably noticed that was gay-man-only specific. Within the gay women community, it's a whole 'nuther can o' worms, and I think you touched on it in your comment. The delicate flower that is “masculinity” in the country doesn't let men just make out with each other for fun — casual “dabbling” in homosexuality isn't as common among men. Women? Heck, a lot of times it's done for the explicit purpose of getting the attention of straight males. So for an out lesbian, having a make-out session or relationship with a woman who isn't fully committed to being with women can seem a lot more dangerous.
SB – One last point for you and others. I am very open on this subject mainly because I was mainly talking about myself.
I was sexually active starting at a young age, and was bi-sexual from the start. Around 16 – 17 or so I lived strictly as a gay man, then around 22 or so decided that it was not fulfilling, went back to being bi, then got married, then a few years later finally decided that I had lost interest in the gay life. However, many aspects of it remain with me, as it is part of my life experiences that shaped who I am today.
I celebrate 25 years of marriage next year, and am quite happy with my life choices, beginning to end (well, I hope it is not the end!)
AR — I did read what you said, and I thought the conclusion was odd. I wasn't trying to belittle it. In your comment, you seemed to think that because bisexuals can go back and forth between men and women, that somehow their sexuality changed, or something in their environment made them switch from being gay to straight or vice versa. If you read my comment, I tried to explain that that's not the case, and that the existence of bisexuals neither negates nor proves anything about whether sexuality is innate or learned. Your comment implied that bisexuality was a hole in the argument that sexuality is hardwired, but it's not. I guess it never occured to me that some people think of bisexuality as “switching” sexualities, which is why I thought it was odd. If that word made you think I was belittling you, I do apologize, but I don't think I misread your comment, nor am I “experiencing” “comprehension difficulties”.
In the same vein, your comment that “We do tend to settle into a single orientation,” is something I disagree with. They haven't settled on one gender or another, they have settled with a life-long partner, that happens to have one gender or another.
roro –
Well, from my experience, which is all I can draw on, I know very few, actually no, people in their mid-40's or older that remain actively bi, or that switch back and forth in long-term relationships, whether they have a life partner or not.
I am not saying they are not out there, but they truly are the exception from what I have seen. Nor am I saying that there is anything wrong with them, either, just to be clear. Just rare, as I said from my experience.
AR — I in no way mean to discount your personal experiences, and not knowing you, it would certainly be presumptuous to do so. I would only suggest that remaining “actively bi” isn't really possible when you fall in love and commit to one person for life, as well you know having been in a happy marriage for so long. My best friend (a straight woman) has been married for 10 years to a man who is bisexual, whose previous long term relationships were with men, but who just fell head-over-heals with my friend. They are totally committed to each other (about to have their first baby, in fact), but he still identifies as bi, still watches gay porn (with his wife!), still has same-sex attractions, but is committed to his wife, who he also finds extremely sexually desirable. So I guess he's not “actively bi”, per se, because he's never going to have sex with another man, but that didn't erase his sexual identity any more than a marriage between two straight people would erase either's attraction to members of the opposite sex just because they will only have sex with one person ever again.
AR: your life experiences: That's wonderful! And congratulations on 24 years now and the “magic” 25th wedding anniversary next year!
AR: with respect to the switching back and forth… I have to admit I was a bit puzzled over the statement at first, but after reading the back and forth btwn you and roro80 and thinking about it I can see what you mean. Though I would probably frame it differently….
I agree with roro80 about settling down with one person as we get older. The type of relationship we're in might define in someone else's mind what our sexuality is. It's presumed that a man and wife are hetero…. When in fact both may be bisexual (or homosexual in the strictest sense of the word). A “preference” isn't necessarily limiting. I guess the easiest example (though more superficial by far) is that a lot of people talk about wanting to meet Mr. “Tall, Dark and Handsome” or “Prince Charming” but most end up marrying someone else….
Now that I've thought about AustinRoth's statement I think I would frame it as someone whose tastes (sexual desires) change over time. Just as our tastes today are different than what we liked as a kid our tastes will be different in 20 years…. I think older people (as an example) grow out of their desire for sweet foods.
Even though I've never thought of this before (I feel so stupid because it seems obvious) until I was thinking about AR's post that I didn't quite understand, I am willing to believe that some people (and probably bi people who are in the middle somewhere) do “change” or “switch” their sexual desire. Through no conscious decision (though for some it may be conscious)- just like an older person does not “choose” to lose their sweet tooth, though other people may stop eating sweets for other reasons.
I think my hang-up around AustinRoth's comment was that it seemed to be a conscious decision. I'm willing to believe that for people in the middle (true bi), who have no clear preference, it really may be more of a conscious decision than for those who steer closer to the two ends on the continuum. I can understand why some totally straight people might have a hard time believing that someone is gay. (And I also feel there are too many “straight” people out there who are homophobes because they are afraid of their own gay/bi feelings.)
If one is bi, but more “straight” on the continuum, then they may eventually settle down with someone of the opposite sex. And if someone is bi, but more “gay” on the continuum they may eventually settle down with someone of the opposite sex.
At any rate, I think AustinRoth has the conclusion absolutely right:
“But here is a great bottom line, IMHO – it is their business. Period.”
roro80- thanks for the compliment!
With regards to, “In my shouting matches I usually end up trying to explain that just because YOU aren't bisexual, doesn't mean that other people aren't.”
Since homophobia exists I suppose the opposite might exist: some formerly bi guys who are now gay may feel threatened by their bi feelings. For many people it's easy to live in a pre-defined box with known rules. I made the following comment earlier on this thread, and it seems really appropriate here: “They [bi] seem more well balanced than many (NOT most, just many) “gay” or “straight” people, both of which I think try to live a certain “lifestyle” to fit in with what they are expected to be.”
But also I would ask the- the formerly “bi” guys (as far enough in advance in a situation where a shouting match might develop) if they believe in the Kinsey scale of human sexuality- the continuum…. As we know people will “dig in” around certain topics- and if they've struggled with their own sexuality, then it's particularly sensitive.
AR, SBSF, thank you for sharing your stories. I'll share mine here as well.
When I was young, I engaged in homosexual experimentation as well with boys in the neighborhood. It was all very innocent until I learned in school just how much stigma and out and out hatred there was to being gay. I felt terrible like I suddenly hate an evil secret I must hide from everyone, but as I matured through puberty, I started noticing that while I had my guy crushes, I was also staring at girls' breasts. A LOT. So needless to say I had a LOT of sexual confusion to work through in my teenage years, but mostly through *ahem* self-exploration (how's that for the old “sex is only for procreation” canard) I concluded that girls were for me.
More than anything, I think our sexual hang ups are due to the corrupting influence of Freude and Christian dogma, which have little to do with Christ and more to do with enforcing male superiority and neatly dividing our society into virgins, whores, or married.
In the AI industry careful handlers can also get a stud animal to train to more than one stimulus that he then associates with “reward” [orgasm].
We are our own trainers and sometimes people train us [molestation]. The point is that sexuality and sexual fetishes are acquired and don't define a person as a subsect or minority of humanity since any person of any gender or race can be imprinted in any given way when it comes to sexuality.
The thing is we must decide which direction we want our kids to see as “normal”. Maybe a majority will decide that gay fetishes and not others are “normal” and then this conversation will be over. But for now a majority sees that heterosexuality is what we want future generations to aspire [train] to.
SB -
Now that I've thought about AustinRoth's statement I think I would frame it as someone whose tastes (sexual desires) change over time.
That is a pretty good, quick explanation of how it was for me. Maybe my experience is the rare one.
AR, “Maybe my experience is the rare one.”
First, thanks for reading my lengthy comments. As to you being the rare one…. I think you have some great experience, insight and are tuned into your own sexual development than most people, and probably even more than many gay guys. I think that the discussion between you and roro80 proves that there is a huge wealth of knowledge gained through different experiences out there. All being right for that that individual.
I'll share a little more of my experiences in the response I'm about to give to Lit3Bolt. I thought about putting my experiences in an earlier reply to your own share, but I didn't want to pull attention away from your great story. It feels right to share now after reading Lit3Bolt's comment. I hope you read my response to Lit3Bolt.
Thanks again and I'll see you out in the “normal” world of TMV shortly.
Lit3Bolt, thanks for your own insight. Our stories together are all different and they all show that each of us is unique. I think you would agree that this is all the more reason why we need to respect others' experiences and beliefs around sexuality. No one should assume (as many people do) that their own personal experience is the same as anyone else's nor that they hold the answer for everyone.
As for my younger days… In some ways we are similar. I knew that I was attracted to guys pre-puberty. I was also raised believing that I would marry and have children. I didn't think anything of my attraction to guys because it was just what I was attracted to. I had a passing attraction to women, but not like guys. Early puberty I think I paid attention to women because I was “supposed” to, and that's what all the guys I knew were doing.
Anyway, one afternoon when I was about 11 or 12 years old I heard a newscast about a couple men being arrested for being pedophiles. I asked my mom about it and she explained enough for me to know that what they did were wrong. I connected their actions with my feelings, but I knew that I wasn't “bad”. Around that time I started to fool around with a couple guys from school. I knew I had to keep it cool, because such play was “wrong”. And I even slept with women around that time.
But I really liked guys and I never thought I was a “bad person” even though I knew that some of what I did with other guys was bad (but then again having sex with girls was bad too at that age- but at least other guys didn't make fun of sex with girls).
A couple years later, when I was 17 I realized that my playing around with other guys was exactly what everyone was referring to when they made jokes about “fags” and exactly what those pedophiles were doing. And I realized that I was one of those “bad” people! Except I didn't feel like a “bad” person. I wasn't raised to be a bad person. I was raised to be married and have kids. I couldn't be “that way”. So when this huge realization hit me I was very upset and cried for two weeks. It was horrible.
I insisted to my mom that I see a psychiatrist. Even though I was close to Mom, I was so ashamed of “what I was” that I couldn't talk to her. And I'm sure her feelings were hurt. But Mom found a psychologist (instead of a psychiatrist). I went every other week for a year or so, until I graduated from high school. The psychologist was great and told me to be careful to not lock myself into being gay, that it might be a phase. But the psychologist was also supportive of me.
To add a little more color…. the couple guys I had fooled around with at the start of puberty were different than the guys I went to high school with. I went to public school for most of my life, then went to a private high school (I've talked on here before about going to a Catholic HS, even though my family isn't Catholic). I actually never messed around with any of the guys in my high school and yet they called me fag, etc. I always denied it. And in fact I knew that some of them fooled around with each other regularly, including the “star quarterback” on the football team. My few good friends in high school were girls and they knew about me.
I have other experiences about being gay (and closeted, for the most part) in a Catholic high school, but those will have to wait until another time.
Thanks for sharing and I hope my own share is illuminating. This part of my story is not something I talk about too often. It's very personal and very painful, including some of the other experiences that need to wait for another day.
“remaining “actively bi” isn't really possible when you fall in love and commit to one person for life”
You can if you're a politician…
SB – thanks for sharing, too. You indeed should only share what you are comfortable, and the internet is certainly not a place to reveal the deepest and darkest part of our inner lives, especially with Sil and her ilk lying in wait to compare us to bovine animal husbandry.
What came across to me was, as you said, we are unique individuals, yet we all share a common core of wanting to find where we belong inside ourselves and to be accepted by others. It is almost never an easy journey for anyone, male, female, straight, gay, bi, or whatever.
One aspect of your story did strike me, however, and that is what appears to be an association of pedophilia to gayness, rather than an inappropriate sexual desire of an adult toward a child. I am going to assume, although it was not spelled out, that you have overcome that. It is however indicative of how many people think, unfortunately, even those who should know better. That association was prevalent in the past, and probably still is to a surprising amount today.
The vast majority of pedophiles are straight.
AR, thanks. Actually I didn't really associate pedophila with gayness. I thought what was wrong was pedophilia in general (not just gayness). I had no association with my actions as being the same as peophilia. I just viewed pedophiles as “dirty old men” as far removed form me as a thief. We don't think sex is wrong becuase there are rapists out there…. we view the “criminal act” with the violation. And that's how I view pedofiles- that they are old men who violate young kids. I think “statuatory rape” laws are inane if the guy is 18 and the girl is 17…. What should be wrong is a violation of another. Funny that an 18 yo guy might be charged with statuatory rape of his 17 yo girlfriend, but if that same 17 yo girl waits a few more months she can marry a 70 yo man and the law is fine with it.
As far as sharing personal stories on here… well it's not something I prefer to do, but when we start sharing stories this becomes a community. I appreciate the shares of others, so I believe it's important to share my story as well. It's clear that we're all individuals. The more we share our stories the more other people will understand that there's no one “right” experience or set of beliefs. Sil and Father Time and others are welcome to their beliefs, but they cross the line when they think that we should change our feelings. I'm not asking these folks to change the way they live (and they wouldn't). So why do they feel they have the right to ask me to change for their benefit- particularly since they don't even know me?
I continue to view pedophiles as “dirty old men”. Besides, aren't most pedophiles straight men going after young girls?
You guys are so awesome for being able to open up in a space like this, a space that is rarely a “safe space”. Every person who can add their story to the fabric of common knowledge helps grow the community, which is why I feel a little cowardly for being unwilling to do so here. Safe space is pretty important to me.
“Besides, aren't most pedophiles straight men going after young girls?”
A lot of anti-gay groups use statistics to “proove” that gay men are more likely to molest children than other people. Their number is “30% of molesations of children are committed by gay men, while gay people represent only 3% of the population”. They do this not only using bad statistics for how many people are gay, but they also do this by the terrible logical gymnastics that says that any man who rapes an underage boy is gay. So, basically, 30% of child molestations are committed by men on young boys, so that's how they come up with their statistics. If you look at the stats with real world logic, of course, you come up with numbers that show that a gay man is about as likely to molest an underage person as a straight person, which is exactly what anyone would expect. I'm currently looking for all the stats and a wonderful piece that takes them down, but I'm just not finding it.
KATHY KATTENBURG—
I don't know Kathy but I'd say we are on a roll here.