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	<title>Comments on: Has Tide Shifted For Cash For Clunkers Senate Vote?</title>
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		<title>By: Almoderate</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198975</link>
		<dc:creator>Almoderate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198975</guid>
		<description>Ford&#039;s sales only tell me what I already know...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Ford Focus freaking ROCKS!  (I have two, and I LOVE them!)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Back on topic...  jchem has a good point.  Considering the job loss, that could be a major problem.  I&#039;m hoping that the increased spending from this and the recent boost to Wall Street and the increase to minimum wages (not to mention the back to school season spending is under way) that we may start to see the job number improve.  Of course, it&#039;s far too early to tell, and it may take some time for the increased spending to translate into hiring to meet increased demand.  The real question is whether or not these factors will hold long enough for that to take place and for the spiral to start going back up again.  Consumer spending is the key.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Though I do wonder how this particular program, considering sales tax and liscense fees among other things, might affect the actual cost of the program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ford&#39;s sales only tell me what I already know&#8230;</p>
<p>The Ford Focus freaking ROCKS!  (I have two, and I LOVE them!)</p>
<p>Back on topic&#8230;  jchem has a good point.  Considering the job loss, that could be a major problem.  I&#39;m hoping that the increased spending from this and the recent boost to Wall Street and the increase to minimum wages (not to mention the back to school season spending is under way) that we may start to see the job number improve.  Of course, it&#39;s far too early to tell, and it may take some time for the increased spending to translate into hiring to meet increased demand.  The real question is whether or not these factors will hold long enough for that to take place and for the spiral to start going back up again.  Consumer spending is the key.</p>
<p>Though I do wonder how this particular program, considering sales tax and liscense fees among other things, might affect the actual cost of the program.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198964</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198964</guid>
		<description>&quot;replacing one 16mpg car with a 25mpg car is like replacing a 25mpg car with a 57mpg car&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Good point.  Possible future variants of the program (be it fixed or variable incentive amounts that may be involved) could be based on relative as well as absolute old-vs.-new fuel efficiency differences and improvements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;replacing one 16mpg car with a 25mpg car is like replacing a 25mpg car with a 57mpg car&#8221;</p>
<p>Good point.  Possible future variants of the program (be it fixed or variable incentive amounts that may be involved) could be based on relative as well as absolute old-vs.-new fuel efficiency differences and improvements.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198937</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198937</guid>
		<description>&quot;Maybe I&#039;m the only one, but something about this whole program just doesn&#039;t set well.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There are a number of problems with this.  I&#039;m also curious if the Senate will change it.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Meanwhile, it can&#039;t be all bad, if it spawns more Lincoln Mercury ads featuring Jill Wagner, at least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Maybe I&#39;m the only one, but something about this whole program just doesn&#39;t set well.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are a number of problems with this.  I&#39;m also curious if the Senate will change it.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, it can&#39;t be all bad, if it spawns more Lincoln Mercury ads featuring Jill Wagner, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198936</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198936</guid>
		<description>Rudi, F-22 &quot;sticker shock&quot; (and simply the desire by libbies to loot Defense to pay for other things they prefer to spend money on, instead) is being addressed by current efforts to nip F-22 as well as other projects (including much of FCS, which was overdue).  Also, sorry, but GM and Chrysler are too small for you and I and others to enjoy anything meaningful in size when it comes to a &quot;citizens&#039; dividend&quot; someday.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;* * *&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;As DLS mentioned yesterday, the requirements are not stringent enough. Personally, I think anything less that 30mpg should not be allowed. The problem is that 30mpg might cut out a number of American cars.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For the record, I said that _any_ fuel requirements (for either the old or the new car) are wrong, that they wrongly introduce environmentalist and social-engineering elements into what should be free of them, that the program should simply reward replacements of _all_ old vehicles by _any_ new vehicle.  (This is the most straightforward thing to do with such a replacement program specifically undertaken to reduce total vehicle emissions, too.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But I did say that the world standard (a de facto basis of measurement _and_ a real-world gauge of small personal vehicles of _all_ kinds in the USA and Canada as well as in differently-governed Europe and Japan) for mileage is 23.5 MPG, and that that level is what I&#039;d like to see used for any upward revision from 22 MPG.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Yes, it&#039;s not very high, but most vehicles&#039; mileage (of vehicles most people prefer, notably) is not that much higher.  The 23.5 MPG figure (10.0 km per liter) is not only real-world appropriate, but practical.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Even though clouded or tainted by politics, it&#039;s an interesting subject.  For example, the 23.5 MPG figure (10.0 km per liter) could be used as an efficiency index (in reality, decameters per liter, too), benchmark-efficiency value of 100, and, say, only those vehicles whose efficiency &quot;index&quot; values were at a specific higher value (125, 150) could be legally called &quot;economy&quot; or &quot;fuel-saving&quot; or &quot;fuel-efficient&quot; vehicles and qualify for various special (politically favored) treatments.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And there&#039;s no need to wait for that, necessarily.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, the &quot;-bate&quot; portion (subsidy; reward) of a fee-bate scheme could be implemented right away by the feds with this program (Cash for Clunkers), by offering _progressive_ subsidies -- the higher the mileage, the greater the subsidy.  (An initial attempt at the &quot;fee-&quot; part of the scheme could be done by inverting it, not taxing the less-efficient older vehicle, but inverting this to a progressive subsity or voucher on the old vehicle as well, offering a larger credit or voucher amount the lower the efficiency of the old vehicle being disposed of.  I.e., you&#039;d provide fuel-efficiency-seeking progressive incentives with old _and_ new vehicles.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;More-complicated is inferior normally to simpler with this and any other program, but you can see how the program could be changed from using a single value to a new (raised) efficiency value _and_ applying a varying amount of incentive toward the old and new vehicle to encourage relinquishing the less efficient vehicles and seeking the more efficient vehicles (more than might be the case if not so &quot;incentivized&quot;), as much as possible.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;OK, I&#039;ll take off the social engineering and environmental-activist &quot;hat&quot; now and let others try it on now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rudi, F-22 &#8220;sticker shock&#8221; (and simply the desire by libbies to loot Defense to pay for other things they prefer to spend money on, instead) is being addressed by current efforts to nip F-22 as well as other projects (including much of FCS, which was overdue).  Also, sorry, but GM and Chrysler are too small for you and I and others to enjoy anything meaningful in size when it comes to a &#8220;citizens&#39; dividend&#8221; someday.</p>
<p>* * *</p>
<p>&#8220;As DLS mentioned yesterday, the requirements are not stringent enough. Personally, I think anything less that 30mpg should not be allowed. The problem is that 30mpg might cut out a number of American cars.&#8221;</p>
<p>For the record, I said that _any_ fuel requirements (for either the old or the new car) are wrong, that they wrongly introduce environmentalist and social-engineering elements into what should be free of them, that the program should simply reward replacements of _all_ old vehicles by _any_ new vehicle.  (This is the most straightforward thing to do with such a replacement program specifically undertaken to reduce total vehicle emissions, too.)</p>
<p>But I did say that the world standard (a de facto basis of measurement _and_ a real-world gauge of small personal vehicles of _all_ kinds in the USA and Canada as well as in differently-governed Europe and Japan) for mileage is 23.5 MPG, and that that level is what I&#39;d like to see used for any upward revision from 22 MPG.</p>
<p>Yes, it&#39;s not very high, but most vehicles&#39; mileage (of vehicles most people prefer, notably) is not that much higher.  The 23.5 MPG figure (10.0 km per liter) is not only real-world appropriate, but practical.</p>
<p>Even though clouded or tainted by politics, it&#39;s an interesting subject.  For example, the 23.5 MPG figure (10.0 km per liter) could be used as an efficiency index (in reality, decameters per liter, too), benchmark-efficiency value of 100, and, say, only those vehicles whose efficiency &#8220;index&#8221; values were at a specific higher value (125, 150) could be legally called &#8220;economy&#8221; or &#8220;fuel-saving&#8221; or &#8220;fuel-efficient&#8221; vehicles and qualify for various special (politically favored) treatments.</p>
<p>And there&#39;s no need to wait for that, necessarily.</p>
<p>Also, the &#8220;-bate&#8221; portion (subsidy; reward) of a fee-bate scheme could be implemented right away by the feds with this program (Cash for Clunkers), by offering _progressive_ subsidies &#8212; the higher the mileage, the greater the subsidy.  (An initial attempt at the &#8220;fee-&#8221; part of the scheme could be done by inverting it, not taxing the less-efficient older vehicle, but inverting this to a progressive subsity or voucher on the old vehicle as well, offering a larger credit or voucher amount the lower the efficiency of the old vehicle being disposed of.  I.e., you&#39;d provide fuel-efficiency-seeking progressive incentives with old _and_ new vehicles.)</p>
<p>More-complicated is inferior normally to simpler with this and any other program, but you can see how the program could be changed from using a single value to a new (raised) efficiency value _and_ applying a varying amount of incentive toward the old and new vehicle to encourage relinquishing the less efficient vehicles and seeking the more efficient vehicles (more than might be the case if not so &#8220;incentivized&#8221;), as much as possible.</p>
<p>OK, I&#39;ll take off the social engineering and environmental-activist &#8220;hat&#8221; now and let others try it on now.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198922</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198922</guid>
		<description>I say that with CARS working so well, where is my rebate for a F22 Raptor?&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;In April 2006, the cost of the F-22 was assessed by the Government Accountability Office to be $361 million per aircraft. This cost reflects the F-22 total program cost, divided by the number of fighters the Air Force is programmed to buy; and which has so far invested $28 billion in the Raptor&#039;s research, development and testing. That money, referred to as a &quot;sunk cost&quot;, is already spent and is separate from money used for future decision-making, including procuring a copy of the jet. The Unit Procurement Cost was estimated at $177.6 million in 2006 based on a production run of 181 airframes.[17] This unit cost will decrease if total production is higher. This cost includes $3.233 billion already spent on research and development by 2006.[18]&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say that with CARS working so well, where is my rebate for a F22 Raptor?<br />
<blockquote>In April 2006, the cost of the F-22 was assessed by the Government Accountability Office to be $361 million per aircraft. This cost reflects the F-22 total program cost, divided by the number of fighters the Air Force is programmed to buy; and which has so far invested $28 billion in the Raptor&#39;s research, development and testing. That money, referred to as a &#8220;sunk cost&#8221;, is already spent and is separate from money used for future decision-making, including procuring a copy of the jet. The Unit Procurement Cost was estimated at $177.6 million in 2006 based on a production run of 181 airframes.[17] This unit cost will decrease if total production is higher. This cost includes $3.233 billion already spent on research and development by 2006.[18]</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: roro80</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198919</link>
		<dc:creator>roro80</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198919</guid>
		<description>If you work out the math, mile-per-gallon improvements obey a law of diminishing returns, so I think that the way they are doing it is very smart -- get the worst offending cars off the road for the greatest improvement at the least cost. From a gas consumption and pollution point of view, replacing one 16mpg car with a 25mpg car is like replacing a 25mpg car with a 57mpg car.  In other words, you need to spend more money for engine development to get the same amount of return. I think the real trick is not to work only on 100mpg Priuses, but to improve all the big-rigs that get 4mpg to get a whopping 5mpg, for example. Sounds like not much, but a full 5 gallons of gas (+resulting pollution) would be saved for every 100 miles driven.  A 1mpg improvement for a 25mpg car would save 5 gallons after 3200 miles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you work out the math, mile-per-gallon improvements obey a law of diminishing returns, so I think that the way they are doing it is very smart &#8212; get the worst offending cars off the road for the greatest improvement at the least cost. From a gas consumption and pollution point of view, replacing one 16mpg car with a 25mpg car is like replacing a 25mpg car with a 57mpg car.  In other words, you need to spend more money for engine development to get the same amount of return. I think the real trick is not to work only on 100mpg Priuses, but to improve all the big-rigs that get 4mpg to get a whopping 5mpg, for example. Sounds like not much, but a full 5 gallons of gas (+resulting pollution) would be saved for every 100 miles driven.  A 1mpg improvement for a 25mpg car would save 5 gallons after 3200 miles.</p>
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		<title>By: jchem</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198914</link>
		<dc:creator>jchem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 20:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198914</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m the only one, but something about this whole program just doesn&#039;t set well. Presumably, someone who has one of these clunkers has no monthly car payment and can settle for liability-only car insurance (the cheap kind). They trade that in for a new fuel-efficient car. Now they are stuck with a monthly car payment, and since its financed they now have to pay full coverage insurance on it. This could turn out to be a big problem if someone who buys a brand new car today loses their job tomorrow, no? What happens then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#39;m the only one, but something about this whole program just doesn&#39;t set well. Presumably, someone who has one of these clunkers has no monthly car payment and can settle for liability-only car insurance (the cheap kind). They trade that in for a new fuel-efficient car. Now they are stuck with a monthly car payment, and since its financed they now have to pay full coverage insurance on it. This could turn out to be a big problem if someone who buys a brand new car today loses their job tomorrow, no? What happens then?</p>
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		<title>By: shannonlee</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198901</link>
		<dc:creator>shannonlee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 19:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198901</guid>
		<description>Totally agree with DLS on this.  As DLS mentioned yesterday, the requirements are not stringent enough.  Personally, I think anything less that 30mpg should not be allowed.  The problem is that 30mpg might cut out a number of American cars....I hate it when I get into a debate with myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree with DLS on this.  As DLS mentioned yesterday, the requirements are not stringent enough.  Personally, I think anything less that 30mpg should not be allowed.  The problem is that 30mpg might cut out a number of American cars&#8230;.I hate it when I get into a debate with myself.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198900</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 19:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198900</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s too early to say.  I&#039;m also curious if there will be more stringent fuel efficiency requirements in any extension or prolongation.  It&#039;s unfortunate as well as obviously wrong, but the Senators have the power to demand this, and Dianne Feinstein (shown by you above) is one of those wanting tougher requirements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s too early to say.  I&#39;m also curious if there will be more stringent fuel efficiency requirements in any extension or prolongation.  It&#39;s unfortunate as well as obviously wrong, but the Senators have the power to demand this, and Dianne Feinstein (shown by you above) is one of those wanting tougher requirements.</p>
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		<title>By: Has Tide Shifted For Cash For Clunkers Senate Vote? &#124; Cars Guide</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41867/has-tide-shifted-for-cash-for-clunkers-senate-vote/comment-page-1/#comment-198889</link>
		<dc:creator>Has Tide Shifted For Cash For Clunkers Senate Vote? &#124; Cars Guide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 18:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41867#comment-198889</guid>
		<description>[...] Go here to read the rest: Has Tide Shifted For Cash For Clunkers Senate Vote? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Go here to read the rest: Has Tide Shifted For Cash For Clunkers Senate Vote? [...]</p>
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