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	<title>Comments on: Consensus, Not Oversight</title>
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		<title>By: keelaay</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198721</link>
		<dc:creator>keelaay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 03:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198721</guid>
		<description>The CIA, our CIA, my CIA, has lied, deceived, and tortured???  I am shocked, SHOCKED!!&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Spare us the hand-wringing please.  The CIA is a spy organization.  Think about that for a minute.  It is organized to operate outside the rule of international and sovereign law (just ask Gautemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc, etc.)  The CIA has assassinated democratically elected foreign heads of state.  Given the mission to work outside the laws of sovereign nations, why in the world would anyone suppose the CIA would respect the laws of the United States?  They respect one law -- their own.  The end justifies the means... even when the end is failure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The CIA, our CIA, my CIA, has lied, deceived, and tortured???  I am shocked, SHOCKED!!</p>
<p>Spare us the hand-wringing please.  The CIA is a spy organization.  Think about that for a minute.  It is organized to operate outside the rule of international and sovereign law (just ask Gautemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc, etc.)  The CIA has assassinated democratically elected foreign heads of state.  Given the mission to work outside the laws of sovereign nations, why in the world would anyone suppose the CIA would respect the laws of the United States?  They respect one law &#8212; their own.  The end justifies the means&#8230; even when the end is failure.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert61</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198701</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert61</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:40:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198701</guid>
		<description>Nice discussion here. As a member of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO), I write on my DECLASSIFIED SECRETS site that most intelligence failures are policy failures by some of our policy makers. Cherry-picking during the &quot;W&quot; era simply meant the administration ignored the intelligence collection, analysis and subsequent recommendations. It&#039;s one thing for our White House policy makers to simply read NIE&#039;s and daily briefs, then ignore them...not against the law. It&#039;s another to send Cheney over to make dozens of unprecedented visits to the CIA HQ in Langley and threaten lower and middle-level managers, thus debauching heretofore accurate intelligence estimates, making them perverted and warped into what the White House needed to support its invasion of Iraq..against the law. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Iraq invasion was not an intelligence failure, it was a policy failure...and young men and women continue to die years after. Visit my DECLASSIFIED SECRETS site and I&#039;d enjoy hearing your opinions. &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice discussion here. As a member of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO), I write on my DECLASSIFIED SECRETS site that most intelligence failures are policy failures by some of our policy makers. Cherry-picking during the &#8220;W&#8221; era simply meant the administration ignored the intelligence collection, analysis and subsequent recommendations. It&#39;s one thing for our White House policy makers to simply read NIE&#39;s and daily briefs, then ignore them&#8230;not against the law. It&#39;s another to send Cheney over to make dozens of unprecedented visits to the CIA HQ in Langley and threaten lower and middle-level managers, thus debauching heretofore accurate intelligence estimates, making them perverted and warped into what the White House needed to support its invasion of Iraq..against the law. </p>
<p>The Iraq invasion was not an intelligence failure, it was a policy failure&#8230;and young men and women continue to die years after. Visit my DECLASSIFIED SECRETS site and I&#39;d enjoy hearing your opinions. <br /><a href="http://www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Robert61</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198698</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert61</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198698</guid>
		<description>Very enjoyable site, The Moderate Voice is. I ran across it on my DECLASSIFIED SECRETS site where I have daily updated newspaper and journal pieces about the CIA in general, black ops, etc. As a member of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO), I will bookmark this site. Robert&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very enjoyable site, The Moderate Voice is. I ran across it on my DECLASSIFIED SECRETS site where I have daily updated newspaper and journal pieces about the CIA in general, black ops, etc. As a member of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers (AFIO), I will bookmark this site. Robert<br /><a href="http://www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.declassifiedsecrets.blogspot.com/</a></p>
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		<title>By: DarthLoki</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198641</link>
		<dc:creator>DarthLoki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 22:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198641</guid>
		<description>George W. Bush and the C.I.A.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;	George W. Bush used the people&#039;s and the congresses belief that all presidents have the integrity to separate defense of country, from defense of politics. He bullied the congress into accepting his viewpoint. The congress would back down, believing that no one who had been elected president could so blatantly lie and distort the facts. Bush&#039;s lies are still being defended to this day.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;	The CIA has problems and they should be addressed, but Congress must accept that it was deceived and made a fool of by George W. Bush. Congressional oversight of the CIA really became CIA oversight of the CIA during the Bush Administration. Porter Goss, a former CIA operative, was the head of the House Intelligence Committee before becoming head of the CIA. The CIA&#039;s man in the U. S. Senate (Bill Nelson D-Fl), in a rare show of non-partisanship, immediately supported the republican Goss&#039;s nomination. The CIA penetration of the House and and Senate allowed it to disrupt, divide, and lie to the Senate and Congressional committees. With the blessings of the Bush administration the CIA wouldn&#039;t have to worry about any non-Bushies looking over their shoulders.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;	Most of the CIA leadership was smart enough not to have anything to do with the Bushies, but a few did come forward and offered up their souls to the Bushies. These are the people who are fighting any investigation within the CIA.  All the power that they had accumulated during the Bush administration would be lost. They could find themselves at the mercy of the laws and the people that they had stepped on in getting to their present positions. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;	Congress must face the fact that they had been fooled and that the soldiers in intelligence community were doing what they were told to do. Congress must now take the difficult road of investigating and prosecuting the people who gave those orders. Some suggestions: George W. Bush,  Dick Cheney,  David Addington,  Alberto Gonzales,  Douglas Feith, John Yoo and Jay S. Bybee.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;P.S. Did I mention that the CIA&#039;s man in the U. S. Senate (Bill Nelson D-Fl) said Leon Panetta was a close friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George W. Bush and the C.I.A.</p>
<p>	George W. Bush used the people&#39;s and the congresses belief that all presidents have the integrity to separate defense of country, from defense of politics. He bullied the congress into accepting his viewpoint. The congress would back down, believing that no one who had been elected president could so blatantly lie and distort the facts. Bush&#39;s lies are still being defended to this day.</p>
<p>	The CIA has problems and they should be addressed, but Congress must accept that it was deceived and made a fool of by George W. Bush. Congressional oversight of the CIA really became CIA oversight of the CIA during the Bush Administration. Porter Goss, a former CIA operative, was the head of the House Intelligence Committee before becoming head of the CIA. The CIA&#39;s man in the U. S. Senate (Bill Nelson D-Fl), in a rare show of non-partisanship, immediately supported the republican Goss&#39;s nomination. The CIA penetration of the House and and Senate allowed it to disrupt, divide, and lie to the Senate and Congressional committees. With the blessings of the Bush administration the CIA wouldn&#39;t have to worry about any non-Bushies looking over their shoulders.</p>
<p>	Most of the CIA leadership was smart enough not to have anything to do with the Bushies, but a few did come forward and offered up their souls to the Bushies. These are the people who are fighting any investigation within the CIA.  All the power that they had accumulated during the Bush administration would be lost. They could find themselves at the mercy of the laws and the people that they had stepped on in getting to their present positions. </p>
<p>	Congress must face the fact that they had been fooled and that the soldiers in intelligence community were doing what they were told to do. Congress must now take the difficult road of investigating and prosecuting the people who gave those orders. Some suggestions: George W. Bush,  Dick Cheney,  David Addington,  Alberto Gonzales,  Douglas Feith, John Yoo and Jay S. Bybee.</p>
<p>P.S. Did I mention that the CIA&#39;s man in the U. S. Senate (Bill Nelson D-Fl) said Leon Panetta was a close friend.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198562</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198562</guid>
		<description>As I correctly wrote earlier, in earlier, more-mainstream-oriented days, liberal Democrat Obama actually put a muzzle on the worst of the extremists in power in Washington, his fellow and worse lib Dems, most notably the Bush-Cheney demented revanchists (as far from the mainstream as it is in US politics now).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I correctly wrote earlier, in earlier, more-mainstream-oriented days, liberal Democrat Obama actually put a muzzle on the worst of the extremists in power in Washington, his fellow and worse lib Dems, most notably the Bush-Cheney demented revanchists (as far from the mainstream as it is in US politics now).</p>
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		<title>By: Silhouette</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198487</link>
		<dc:creator>Silhouette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198487</guid>
		<description>If we don&#039;t punish people guilty of crimes then other people soon to replace them will see that corruption goes unpunished.  The situation will get worse and worse until we have a regime like Iran.  We may have already.  The CIA pulls way too may strings.  It&#039;s way too big for its britches as it is.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;We want Dick Cheney and Dubya put on trial.  It&#039;s as simple as that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we don&#39;t punish people guilty of crimes then other people soon to replace them will see that corruption goes unpunished.  The situation will get worse and worse until we have a regime like Iran.  We may have already.  The CIA pulls way too may strings.  It&#39;s way too big for its britches as it is.  </p>
<p>We want Dick Cheney and Dubya put on trial.  It&#39;s as simple as that.</p>
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		<title>By: johnglad</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198478</link>
		<dc:creator>johnglad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 16:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198478</guid>
		<description>You&#039;ve got to be kidding me.  Panetta is no more or less reliable than any other politician.  You&#039;d trust him with your life?  I wouldn&#039;t trust him with my wallet.  He may be sincere in his declamations and defense of the Agency, but his opinions are only as valid as the information he&#039;s being given.  The Agency is hardly going to tell  him anything other than they are indispensible, infallible, and incredibly demoralized by ... well, everything demoralizes the Agency, according to their media flacks and stable of always-unnamed, long-experienced, retired officers.   My own experience suggests that there are a few good ones, always deeply buried, and the HQ sh*theads are devoted to flex time and generating reports that &quot;slam dunk&quot; the &quot;truth.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#39;ve got to be kidding me.  Panetta is no more or less reliable than any other politician.  You&#39;d trust him with your life?  I wouldn&#39;t trust him with my wallet.  He may be sincere in his declamations and defense of the Agency, but his opinions are only as valid as the information he&#39;s being given.  The Agency is hardly going to tell  him anything other than they are indispensible, infallible, and incredibly demoralized by &#8230; well, everything demoralizes the Agency, according to their media flacks and stable of always-unnamed, long-experienced, retired officers.   My own experience suggests that there are a few good ones, always deeply buried, and the HQ sh*theads are devoted to flex time and generating reports that &#8220;slam dunk&#8221; the &#8220;truth.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Father_Time</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41693/consensus-not-oversight/comment-page-1/#comment-198431</link>
		<dc:creator>Father_Time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41693#comment-198431</guid>
		<description>The thing is, Leon Panetta is one of the most reliably honest and forthright people on this planet. If I had to risk my life on what Leon Panetta said, it would not worry me much. Clearly he is warning us of more serious repercussions if there is further pursuit of torture-gate.  As much as I hate to say it, international alliances may prove to be far more important in the future than humanitarian treaties to the United States.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is no comparison with U.S. water-boarding torture and the death of, (how many?), captives to the Yugoslav combatant’s blatant murder of thousands of unarmed civilians. Not fair to compare these even if the same point of law was broken in each set of circumstances. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I want my pound of flesh out of the Bush-Cheney regime for what they did in my name and what it has done to our country, but I’m not willing to sacrifice the good graces Briton, our closest and most beloved ally, on principal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing is, Leon Panetta is one of the most reliably honest and forthright people on this planet. If I had to risk my life on what Leon Panetta said, it would not worry me much. Clearly he is warning us of more serious repercussions if there is further pursuit of torture-gate.  As much as I hate to say it, international alliances may prove to be far more important in the future than humanitarian treaties to the United States.</p>
<p>There is no comparison with U.S. water-boarding torture and the death of, (how many?), captives to the Yugoslav combatant’s blatant murder of thousands of unarmed civilians. Not fair to compare these even if the same point of law was broken in each set of circumstances. </p>
<p>I want my pound of flesh out of the Bush-Cheney regime for what they did in my name and what it has done to our country, but I’m not willing to sacrifice the good graces Briton, our closest and most beloved ally, on principal.</p>
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