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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Ox&#8221; Barack Obama Offers A &#8220;New Deal&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: lexslamman</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41486/ox-barack-obama-offers-a-new-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-198140</link>
		<dc:creator>lexslamman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 19:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41486#comment-198140</guid>
		<description>People don&#039;t have to be &#039;forced&#039; into public mass transit. Most people living in cities end up overwhelmingly choosing it over the misery of wasting hours in traffic and hard earned money on gasoline. Before Firestone and GM conspired to shut down urban transit, especially in southern California, there was serious doubt as to whether our current &#039;automobile culture&#039; would ever become the norm. I suggest studying the &#039;Great American Streetcar Scandal&#039;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.almankoff.com/0322scandal.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.almankoff.com/0322scandal.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The point is in areas where rail transportation has been susbidized and supported, even on a shoestring budget with little amenities, people use it in droves and business booms along the corridors it creates. It is the wisest investment in our tax dollars this government has come up with in over 8 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People don&#39;t have to be &#39;forced&#39; into public mass transit. Most people living in cities end up overwhelmingly choosing it over the misery of wasting hours in traffic and hard earned money on gasoline. Before Firestone and GM conspired to shut down urban transit, especially in southern California, there was serious doubt as to whether our current &#39;automobile culture&#39; would ever become the norm. I suggest studying the &#39;Great American Streetcar Scandal&#39;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.almankoff.com/0322scandal.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://www.almankoff.com/0322scandal.shtml</a></p>
<p>The point is in areas where rail transportation has been susbidized and supported, even on a shoestring budget with little amenities, people use it in droves and business booms along the corridors it creates. It is the wisest investment in our tax dollars this government has come up with in over 8 years.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41486/ox-barack-obama-offers-a-new-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-198138</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 19:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41486#comment-198138</guid>
		<description>Swaraaj, light rail is the darling of lefties and activists here in the USA.  These things are overrated (as modern-day techno-toys, as well as the object of unrealistic expectations of people foregoing autos for collective transport).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But I can think of one thing that&#039;s actually even less practical on its face -- a monorail system -- that _is_ used, quite heavily (as I noted during a recent sports event) and which should be considered for extending where a light rail is being currently sought: the People Mover in Detroit along Woodward Avenue (which is a rare, _heavily_ used, transport corridor in Detroit metro).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;[Any Woodward Avenue or similar extension could be at ground level, if need be, to reduce costs.]&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thepeoplemover.com/WE-LL-TAKE-YOU-THERE%21.id.2.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.thepeoplemover.com/WE-LL-TAKE-YOU-TH...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/Home.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/Home.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, I&#039;ve been on the record before and am on it here once again as supporting a &quot;stimulus&quot; grant to New York City to spend money specifically on a new subway project that makes perfect sense there, and has long been identified as useful and desireable, and a dream there that completes the subway system there -- the Second Avenue Subway.  &quot;Just Do it, Now.&quot;  We should boost the current effort to do this.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/index.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Swaraaj, light rail is the darling of lefties and activists here in the USA.  These things are overrated (as modern-day techno-toys, as well as the object of unrealistic expectations of people foregoing autos for collective transport).</p>
<p>But I can think of one thing that&#39;s actually even less practical on its face &#8212; a monorail system &#8212; that _is_ used, quite heavily (as I noted during a recent sports event) and which should be considered for extending where a light rail is being currently sought: the People Mover in Detroit along Woodward Avenue (which is a rare, _heavily_ used, transport corridor in Detroit metro).</p>
<p>[Any Woodward Avenue or similar extension could be at ground level, if need be, to reduce costs.]</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thepeoplemover.com/WE-LL-TAKE-YOU-THERE%21.id.2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.thepeoplemover.com/WE-LL-TAKE-YOU-TH&#8230;</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/Home.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/Home.html</a></p>
<p>Also, I&#39;ve been on the record before and am on it here once again as supporting a &#8220;stimulus&#8221; grant to New York City to spend money specifically on a new subway project that makes perfect sense there, and has long been identified as useful and desireable, and a dream there that completes the subway system there &#8212; the Second Avenue Subway.  &#8220;Just Do it, Now.&#8221;  We should boost the current effort to do this.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mta.info/capconstr/sas/index.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41486/ox-barack-obama-offers-a-new-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-198135</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 19:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41486#comment-198135</guid>
		<description>Swaraaj, the &quot;dreams&quot; of Michael Moore and innumerable other lefties are, and have been, merely dreams.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Nobody wants to be forced (which would be needed not only in the USA but in any other nation that has advanced in its development, which will then involve mass _automobility_) into collective transport against their will.  The naive faith (which is old and stale as of now, you realize) in &quot;alternative energy&quot; is just that, naive; not only are wind and solar _not_ clean in their creation and production of infrastructure, but they are often impratical or useless (not limited only to those times when the sun is not shining or the wind is not blowing).  These are even more compounded (already here, in the case of wind) by conflicts between proponents of these sources and the nature of the sites or nearby owners (locations near state parks as well as NIMBY neighborhoods).  It&#039;s as naive as in the Seattle plan some years ago for a monorail system or light rail in various metro areas here, along with the naive or impractical expectations of those who are fans like me of high-speed rail, but who are naive or ignorant about the reality of our continent here, etc.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Interestingly, you in India have not only a still-developing population that isn&#039;t yet a mature automotive market and which involves a geographical size that may support high-speed rail throughout your country.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But note that even in India, there&#039;s built-up demand and future expectations of automobiles, especially small, cheap automobiles that are affordable.  (The USA needs a $5,000 automobile right now!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Swaraaj, the &#8220;dreams&#8221; of Michael Moore and innumerable other lefties are, and have been, merely dreams.</p>
<p>Nobody wants to be forced (which would be needed not only in the USA but in any other nation that has advanced in its development, which will then involve mass _automobility_) into collective transport against their will.  The naive faith (which is old and stale as of now, you realize) in &#8220;alternative energy&#8221; is just that, naive; not only are wind and solar _not_ clean in their creation and production of infrastructure, but they are often impratical or useless (not limited only to those times when the sun is not shining or the wind is not blowing).  These are even more compounded (already here, in the case of wind) by conflicts between proponents of these sources and the nature of the sites or nearby owners (locations near state parks as well as NIMBY neighborhoods).  It&#39;s as naive as in the Seattle plan some years ago for a monorail system or light rail in various metro areas here, along with the naive or impractical expectations of those who are fans like me of high-speed rail, but who are naive or ignorant about the reality of our continent here, etc.</p>
<p>Interestingly, you in India have not only a still-developing population that isn&#39;t yet a mature automotive market and which involves a geographical size that may support high-speed rail throughout your country.</p>
<p>But note that even in India, there&#39;s built-up demand and future expectations of automobiles, especially small, cheap automobiles that are affordable.  (The USA needs a $5,000 automobile right now!)</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41486/ox-barack-obama-offers-a-new-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-198134</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 18:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41486#comment-198134</guid>
		<description>Silhouette, the monorail is one idea for metro transit, not inter-city transportation.  (High-speed rail is not a coast-to-coast thing in the USA or Canada, anyway, but merely a regional concept given the distances involved and relatively low population distribution; maglev is ages in the future, if ever a real possibility.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Disneyland monorail or the Alweg in Seattle (yes, I&#039;ve ridden these, too, when living in both places) may be an example for future metro area transit systems, though they&#039;re expensive (as was BART in the Bay Area) and improving bus service would no doubt be more practical, especially for stimulus moneys.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;By the way, Silhouette, not only does BART go along freeway medians in the Bay Area, but there&#039;s also such a case in LA with its rail transport line (in particular, the Green Line).  Of course, I&#039;m willing to ride transit through gangsta land (South Central; the Blue Line) and not everyone else is so willing to do this.  Were you aware that LA has rail transit already, including among freeway medians?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/rail_map.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/rail_...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Of course, automobility and the personal freedom (individual liberty) it confers and supports is as preferred to collective transport in LA as it is elsewhere in the USA and the rest of the world where people can afford it.  It&#039;s no surprise that an early (initial) Kia commercial playing in LA when I was there predictably showed a young woman driving parallel to a transit line and (again, _predictably_) making a right-angle (90-degree, the obviously illustrative choice) turn away from transit when she wanted to turn away from it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Silhouette, the monorail is one idea for metro transit, not inter-city transportation.  (High-speed rail is not a coast-to-coast thing in the USA or Canada, anyway, but merely a regional concept given the distances involved and relatively low population distribution; maglev is ages in the future, if ever a real possibility.)</p>
<p>The Disneyland monorail or the Alweg in Seattle (yes, I&#39;ve ridden these, too, when living in both places) may be an example for future metro area transit systems, though they&#39;re expensive (as was BART in the Bay Area) and improving bus service would no doubt be more practical, especially for stimulus moneys.</p>
<p>By the way, Silhouette, not only does BART go along freeway medians in the Bay Area, but there&#39;s also such a case in LA with its rail transport line (in particular, the Green Line).  Of course, I&#39;m willing to ride transit through gangsta land (South Central; the Blue Line) and not everyone else is so willing to do this.  Were you aware that LA has rail transit already, including among freeway medians?</p>
<p><a href="http://metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/rail_map.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/rail_&#8230;</a></p>
<p>Of course, automobility and the personal freedom (individual liberty) it confers and supports is as preferred to collective transport in LA as it is elsewhere in the USA and the rest of the world where people can afford it.  It&#39;s no surprise that an early (initial) Kia commercial playing in LA when I was there predictably showed a young woman driving parallel to a transit line and (again, _predictably_) making a right-angle (90-degree, the obviously illustrative choice) turn away from transit when she wanted to turn away from it.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41486/ox-barack-obama-offers-a-new-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-198131</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 18:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41486#comment-198131</guid>
		<description>As someone grounded in the real world as well as a California native who spent seven years in LA metro, I can correct Silhouette.  Stimulus money in LA should in large part first be directed where it belongs in other places: Road and bridge repair, as well as in new highway projects.  For decades LA has still needed at least two major new freeways (39 and Slauson-or-Century extension eastward to Santa Ana Canyon and the 91) as well as other shorter freeway segments to complete and fill in gaps in the network.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I doubt, given California&#039;s silly politics in Sacramento, things will improve or be corrected any time soon.  This is a state which failed to do something long ago it should have done, develop (enable and permit to be developed) a new national-class, additional super-major, metro encompassing the Monterey Bay area.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;High speed rail (which actually has been the subject of a state study and weakly intended project someday) is overrated by the unrealistic in this country, though it _is_ applicable to Cailfornia (connecting the developed Southland with the Bay Area) -- high-speed rail is a _regional_ concept in the USA, and intra-California travel is among a population so large as to constitute a region within itself, size-wise.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;With rail, it would be much more practical and realistic to begin soon with providing stimulus money in the Bay Area for the long-overdue Southern Crossing, then possibly converting some of the Bay Bridge&#039;s lower deck back to rail use.  (Could include high-speed rail someday.)  It wouldn&#039;t even need government money to set up a Talgo or similar trainset between LA and Las Vegas once the economy has recovered; and on the existing trains, why not improve them by awarding private food and drink concessions on the Southern California trains (San Diegans and Santa Barbara extensions), including my favorite In-N-Out Burger or even Hooters (also on any new LA-Las Vegas train)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone grounded in the real world as well as a California native who spent seven years in LA metro, I can correct Silhouette.  Stimulus money in LA should in large part first be directed where it belongs in other places: Road and bridge repair, as well as in new highway projects.  For decades LA has still needed at least two major new freeways (39 and Slauson-or-Century extension eastward to Santa Ana Canyon and the 91) as well as other shorter freeway segments to complete and fill in gaps in the network.</p>
<p>I doubt, given California&#39;s silly politics in Sacramento, things will improve or be corrected any time soon.  This is a state which failed to do something long ago it should have done, develop (enable and permit to be developed) a new national-class, additional super-major, metro encompassing the Monterey Bay area.</p>
<p>High speed rail (which actually has been the subject of a state study and weakly intended project someday) is overrated by the unrealistic in this country, though it _is_ applicable to Cailfornia (connecting the developed Southland with the Bay Area) &#8212; high-speed rail is a _regional_ concept in the USA, and intra-California travel is among a population so large as to constitute a region within itself, size-wise.</p>
<p>With rail, it would be much more practical and realistic to begin soon with providing stimulus money in the Bay Area for the long-overdue Southern Crossing, then possibly converting some of the Bay Bridge&#39;s lower deck back to rail use.  (Could include high-speed rail someday.)  It wouldn&#39;t even need government money to set up a Talgo or similar trainset between LA and Las Vegas once the economy has recovered; and on the existing trains, why not improve them by awarding private food and drink concessions on the Southern California trains (San Diegans and Santa Barbara extensions), including my favorite In-N-Out Burger or even Hooters (also on any new LA-Las Vegas train)?</p>
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		<title>By: Silhouette</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/41486/ox-barack-obama-offers-a-new-deal/comment-page-1/#comment-198085</link>
		<dc:creator>Silhouette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=41486#comment-198085</guid>
		<description>If the idea is saving the US oil consumption I&#039;ve got a better idea which may be cheaper.  Los Angeles.  We had the unpleasant experience of passing through that black hole of commuter waste this Summer on vacation.  The highways there are not only dangerous to navigate the packed five or six lanes of high speed maniacs at any hour of any day, they also have to be sucking our oil at a phenominal rate.  If you were to perch yourself over the 405 for instance and log how many cars go flying by on any given day [God help you on a week day between 6AM and 9PM], you would be stunned at the waste.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And yet just saunter down to Dizzyland in Anaslime and there you will behold Walt Disney&#039;s tribute to his hope for the future of LA&#039;s nightmare, the monorail.  We were in Seattle a few years back and rode their monorail.  Zip Zip Zip on a quiet and pleasant elevated rail platform we went from area to area.  It can be done.  In SoCal the sun never stops shining, almost never.  I can see solar panels on top of the rail cars feeding energy into the electric system as they zip huge numbers of people all over the cancerous sprawl day after endless day.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You want to do a massive demo project to show the People that a bigger rail idea will save our country?  Start with LA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the idea is saving the US oil consumption I&#39;ve got a better idea which may be cheaper.  Los Angeles.  We had the unpleasant experience of passing through that black hole of commuter waste this Summer on vacation.  The highways there are not only dangerous to navigate the packed five or six lanes of high speed maniacs at any hour of any day, they also have to be sucking our oil at a phenominal rate.  If you were to perch yourself over the 405 for instance and log how many cars go flying by on any given day [God help you on a week day between 6AM and 9PM], you would be stunned at the waste.  </p>
<p>And yet just saunter down to Dizzyland in Anaslime and there you will behold Walt Disney&#39;s tribute to his hope for the future of LA&#39;s nightmare, the monorail.  We were in Seattle a few years back and rode their monorail.  Zip Zip Zip on a quiet and pleasant elevated rail platform we went from area to area.  It can be done.  In SoCal the sun never stops shining, almost never.  I can see solar panels on top of the rail cars feeding energy into the electric system as they zip huge numbers of people all over the cancerous sprawl day after endless day.</p>
<p>You want to do a massive demo project to show the People that a bigger rail idea will save our country?  Start with LA.</p>
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