Comments on: Obama And Biden Are Seeding A New “Cool War” With Russia

By: peterfro

peterfro — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:17:31 +0000

Ok, I found some specific number for NATO membership support in Georgia & Ukraine (late 2008):

* Georgia ~ 70% for (High, but hardly close to 100%. And that's 3 months after the war with Russia! In all likelihood, bound to go down eventually)
* Ukraine ~ 30%

Source: Atlantic Review Press Digest Nov 7 2008
http://atlanticreview.org/archives/1206-Two-Dif...

By: peterfro

peterfro — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:51:49 +0000

@Geosukhumi,

First of all, if your family suffered personally from the conflict in Abkhazia in the 90s, please accept my sympathies. Any such conflict is a human tragedy.

However, as hard as it may be, try not to let these events take control of your logic and ability to judge the situation impartially. I don't want to defend anything that happened in Abkhazia (although I am perplexed you blame the Russians for it directly), but Georgia's presence in NATO will certainly not rectify it.

In fact, since you're not believing there's even one Georgian who would be doubtful about NATO membership, I invite you to watch this interview with Malkhaz Gulashvili on RealNews. It's an intelligent man, a respected publisher, and an ethnic Georgian - so you shouldn't have trouble to at least try to listen to what he's saying:

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_c...

In essence, he makes a convincing case that Georgia's presence in NATO would be counter to Georgia's own interests. Take a listen.

By: geosukhumi

geosukhumi — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 19:08:04 +0000

do not lie you won't find any mentally healthy geogrian that don't wants to join nato
i am myself are refugee from abkhazia like rest of 300.000 georgans had to leave my home just because i was georgian
what russians did to us nazi germany didn;t do to jews
you people don't know what kind of monster russia is not ppl but their leaders like putin.
Thanks to Joe Biden and americas compation or else those monsters would destroy georgia and geogrgian people.
Thank you Biden!

By: sehersen

sehersen — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:18:56 +0000

This administration is continuing on the framework of previous, repeating same idiotic statements "we will protect our interests in the region". What exactly is "our interest" in this region? How can one U. S. cabinet member go to Russia and expect cooperation on substantial issues such as nuclear arms, North Korea or Afghanistan and send another member to Georgia the following week and make statements that "we will stand by them no matter what". The idea of cooperating with Russia while supporting Georgia is an oxymoron. Georgia government has done nothing but alienate itself from its neighbors and their own citizens while floundering away funds on needless wars. Is it smart to be irritating Russia when you are located on its arm reach like a mosquito ready to be smacked? Where does it get the courage?
Did the people of this union give permission to this or the previous administration to pick a war with Russia and spend tons of money over a region where majority of the people of this union aren't even aware of its existence. Rice herself admitted that Georgia received more money than it should have (of course it should have received absolutely nothing but that's in the pass now) and now Biden goes there and makes further promises. The support of the people of this country for the current administration is steady merely because majority of the people don't know what the heck is going on. It's easy to say American's don't know but actually trying to understand U.S. International Policy is sort of like a visit to DMV. Frustrating. Every time you ask a question to President's press secretary he refers you to the State Department who will refer you to the department handling the specific region, who will refer you to the ambassador, who turns out the be the same fat-lazy-moron a previous administration has placed there for the last god knows how many years, who will refer you to the same old stale documents. Other than the letterhead there has actually been no "Change" whatsoever. Of course the administration has accounted for the lack of interest of the people in knowing how they are exactly being represented in the world. I don't understand what U.S.'s interest in the region is even though I am trying to. All of the theories I have heard are nonsense. Is it because I am so dumb or is U.S. following a nonsense policy? Or maybe, just maybe, America and Russia are just playing a game. They are playing a game because, well, it's just so much fun. Russia already knew what Biden was going to say when he visited Georgia. Russia didn't care because it's all part of the game.
Regarding the comments "Georgia should be able to make its own decisions": Why must we say that? Is it because it sounds right? This naive attitude, the sweet sound of being fare, brings tears to my eyes or does it make me want to vomit. Does Georgia actually make its own decisions? Has it ever or could it ever? Georgia or any other nation of similar caliber, in the surrounding area (NATO member or not) do not, nor will they ever be able to make their own decisions, simply because they cannot afford it. They are all supported by some other nation who can afford making decisions and therefore the smaller nations' desire to be totally independent from the goals of supporting nations is futile. These nations and their people, sadly, are nothing but pawns of the larger nations. They must pick a side or else they will cease to exist.
Georgia should be able to make its own decisions but not Abkhazia. Who gets to decide that Abkhaz people should forget all the efforts and sacrifices of their ancestors to survive and wake up one day and say "oh the heck with it, we'll just be Georgians now". One has to step away from the trees to see the forest but one also must appreciate each tree in order to enjoy the view of the forest. Abkhazians managed to survive against many blows in its history and they are not going to give up now. U.S. does not know what it's like to be part of something as old as being an Abkhaz, therefore cannot calculate the amount of resistance Georgia will receive from Abkhazians.
Supporting Georgia but no military action... What the heck does that mean? Unless Russia promised America that they will exchange Abkhazians' freedom for something else in the goodie bag, how is America going to help Georgia protect its imaginary border integrity but not use force.
Any public statement this administration makes regarding Georgia vs. Abkhazia is nothing but a bunch of bullshit, i.e. not worth pondering because they won't say what they mean and they won't do what they say.

By: peterfro

peterfro — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:36:14 +0000

The wish of the Georgian people to join is debatable. I can probably find plenty of opinions (from within Georgia – and not from “Joe the Plummer” kind of people – respected writers and intellectuals) that lean against it.

But I can say one thing for sure; the vast majority of Ukrainians do NOT with to join NATO and yet the US keeps pushing them in that direction and the media keeps creating the illusion that the only thing between a happy democratic Ukraine and the membership is the sullen and angry Moscow. Why is it being done? Again, because Washington pursues a certain policy in the region, whether or not the peoples of that region like it. So, again, Russian behavior may not be perfectly gentlemanly but it strikes me as obvious that the U.S. is way worse because it doesn't even have the moral grounds to say – well, listen, this really concerns us because it's on our borders.

Imagine for a second that Russia orchestrated two coups d'état – let's say in Nicaragua and Mexico – staged popular protests (people in those countries are as poor or Ukrainians and Georgians and have as much to reprimand their government for), installed a Russian-speaking, Moscow-educated president in one and a president married to a Russian woman (whom he met at a KGB/FSB-sponsored “date”) in another and started pushing for the two countries to join a military alliance with Russia. At that point people in the U.S. would be asking: just what the hell is going on??? Where is our government?? We should *never* allow that on our borders! Forget what these idiots want, *we* don't want that anywhere near us, period!

But that's almost exactly what the Russians are actually going through right now! And Biden's argument is basically “tough – you're weak now, so shut up and listen to our lectures about democracy while we build up military installations around you”. Not sure this is a very constructive tone.

And, to come back to the original post by Brij, which I agree with, the results of this “policy” may be more destabilizing than people in Washington (or Kiev/Tbilisi) realize.

By: pacatrue

pacatrue — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:54:09 +0000

Peter, I think I had narrower concerns on this issue when I wrote. I had in mind something as simple as, “Georgia wishes to join NATO.” Should the U.S. say that we do not think the state of Georgia has the right to make their own decision on that, because it would make Russia angry and Georgia must do what Russia says? On this, if we speak at all, we either have to say that Georgia can determine its own affairs or say it cannot.

By: peterfro

peterfro — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 09:17:13 +0000

The problem is that there is no international body with universal standards. America acts as the standards body, except it makes up the rules as it goes along. Abkhazians can legitimately claim way more rights to an independent state than Kosovars. Before last year, Kosovo has never existed as a separate state. Prior to Stalin's forceful merger of Georgia and Abkhazia those two had never been TOGETHER. So, it's ok to criticise Putin and his buddies, but what are you suggesting? Always trust whoever is in Washington to come up with the fairest solution? Unfortunately, that won't work for most people. It should be a matter for the U.N…. or, in the absence of a standard, a regional matter. But not a pretext for meddling in the affairs of states half-way across the globe.

And let's not forget the reason the U.S. is meddling there. Nobody in Washington gives a **** about democracy. (There's no democracy is neighboring Azerbaijan – and what – anybody protesting?) Georgia is only important because of its geographic position, linking Caspian oil & gas with Europe. That is it. Let's stop pretending there is ANYTHING beyond that.

By: pacatrue

pacatrue — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:15:41 +0000

I understand pretty much every convern here, Brij, but at the same time, what's the alternative? Should Biden say, “Georgia is a small satellite of Russia, and the people there have no right to determine their own government?”