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	<title>Comments on: The Brilliance and Sadness of Zoos: Animal Mothers Walk Away From Their Young</title>
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		<title>By: archangel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-197179</link>
		<dc:creator>archangel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 02:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-197179</guid>
		<description>Dear mermaid, heard that term for years, but sorry, that corner of the world is not the focus of this article. I&#039;m not convinced that grotesque lack of knowledge, protection and care for wild animals comes from those who observe animals in whatever idiosyncratic and compassionate way over the millenia. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The word &quot;anthropomiorphize&quot; itself icomes from the same old school of so-called science used to say animals did not have personalities either. That old &quot;science&quot; used to say that unless a white human saw the trait or behavior in any species, it could not possibly exist outside of a precis or book. The list of errors in that so-called science, is long.  And the arrogance of it, is often resisted by those who actually live with animals, but not for a living. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;A friend at a raptor rescue and I were just laughing over that old term last week, re an eagle rescue where a pompous young zoologist, instead of doing the gritty rescue work, wanted instead to lecture the poor people of the woods who found her, about &quot;anthropomorphizing the eagle. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Examples of &quot;mis-mothering&#039; in the wild occur when creatures are ill or the ecology has been disturbed. That goes without saying. Basic observation. Dont have to go to school for that.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think science and anthro and more importantly ethnology and psychology and neurobiology can complement one another, and the generous friends I have in those fields definitely bridge several disciplines with questions about what might be, can be...  open inquiry. They are rare and gifted.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;  Reading the &#039;animal behavior&#039; texts of even fifty years ago, the reductionist takes on wild animals coming from those who &#039;scientificize&#039; animals ONLY, and who learned about animal behavior from books instead of from living with creatures in a broad ecosystem for years, has too often contibuted to wide failures to grasp animal pain, how to help, protect, and also leave creatures alone.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For me personally, I&#039;ll stick with friends who have lived it: Jane G and my Hopi, Navajo and Lakota friends, as well as friends from India, Africa and Alaska who live with creatures daily. They are my most trusted resources. As well as my own early life in the northwoods.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I see that you care for creatures, mermaid. That you like to know about them. That&#039;s good, regardless. I see you live in a particular world with a particular worldview. I may not see your way, but you are welcome in the world I know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear mermaid, heard that term for years, but sorry, that corner of the world is not the focus of this article. I&#39;m not convinced that grotesque lack of knowledge, protection and care for wild animals comes from those who observe animals in whatever idiosyncratic and compassionate way over the millenia. </p>
<p>The word &#8220;anthropomiorphize&#8221; itself icomes from the same old school of so-called science used to say animals did not have personalities either. That old &#8220;science&#8221; used to say that unless a white human saw the trait or behavior in any species, it could not possibly exist outside of a precis or book. The list of errors in that so-called science, is long.  And the arrogance of it, is often resisted by those who actually live with animals, but not for a living. </p>
<p>A friend at a raptor rescue and I were just laughing over that old term last week, re an eagle rescue where a pompous young zoologist, instead of doing the gritty rescue work, wanted instead to lecture the poor people of the woods who found her, about &#8220;anthropomorphizing the eagle. </p>
<p>Examples of &#8220;mis-mothering&#39; in the wild occur when creatures are ill or the ecology has been disturbed. That goes without saying. Basic observation. Dont have to go to school for that.</p>
<p>I think science and anthro and more importantly ethnology and psychology and neurobiology can complement one another, and the generous friends I have in those fields definitely bridge several disciplines with questions about what might be, can be&#8230;  open inquiry. They are rare and gifted.</p>
<p>  Reading the &#39;animal behavior&#39; texts of even fifty years ago, the reductionist takes on wild animals coming from those who &#39;scientificize&#39; animals ONLY, and who learned about animal behavior from books instead of from living with creatures in a broad ecosystem for years, has too often contibuted to wide failures to grasp animal pain, how to help, protect, and also leave creatures alone.</p>
<p>For me personally, I&#39;ll stick with friends who have lived it: Jane G and my Hopi, Navajo and Lakota friends, as well as friends from India, Africa and Alaska who live with creatures daily. They are my most trusted resources. As well as my own early life in the northwoods.</p>
<p>I see that you care for creatures, mermaid. That you like to know about them. That&#39;s good, regardless. I see you live in a particular world with a particular worldview. I may not see your way, but you are welcome in the world I know.</p>
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		<title>By: mermaid71</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-196813</link>
		<dc:creator>mermaid71</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-196813</guid>
		<description>I have been a student of animal behavior for many years (and hold a Masters in Animal Behavior).  There are plenty of examples of mismothering in wild animals so this is not an accurate assessment of behavioral issues of animals in zoos.  In fact, there are many more examples of successful mothering in wild animals held in zoos than unsuccessful.  One must be careful not to anthropomorphize our interpretation of animal behavior which this article clearly suffers from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been a student of animal behavior for many years (and hold a Masters in Animal Behavior).  There are plenty of examples of mismothering in wild animals so this is not an accurate assessment of behavioral issues of animals in zoos.  In fact, there are many more examples of successful mothering in wild animals held in zoos than unsuccessful.  One must be careful not to anthropomorphize our interpretation of animal behavior which this article clearly suffers from.</p>
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		<title>By: ordinarysparrow</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-194935</link>
		<dc:creator>ordinarysparrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-194935</guid>
		<description>sometimes stories spiral out and one small extinct panda can tell so much more or the larger story of our time  . . . kinda like seeing an Alex Grey painting of Gaia  . . . it is all there  . . . .and so are we . . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sometimes stories spiral out and one small extinct panda can tell so much more or the larger story of our time  . . . kinda like seeing an Alex Grey painting of Gaia  . . . it is all there  . . . .and so are we . . . .</p>
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		<title>By: fractal</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-194934</link>
		<dc:creator>fractal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 05:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-194934</guid>
		<description>The cage begins when newborns are placed in a crib.&lt;br&gt;Fences are used to separate land ownership and one another&#039;s homes.&lt;br&gt;some folks even have gated communities.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Read the Story of B.  It also has a very important message for all of us.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Dr. cpe, thank you for your words of wisdom.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;jmariposa</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cage begins when newborns are placed in a crib.<br />Fences are used to separate land ownership and one another&#39;s homes.<br />some folks even have gated communities.</p>
<p>Read the Story of B.  It also has a very important message for all of us.</p>
<p>Dr. cpe, thank you for your words of wisdom.</p>
<p>jmariposa</p>
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		<title>By: newtothis</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-194929</link>
		<dc:creator>newtothis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jul 2009 04:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-194929</guid>
		<description>Beautiful. I&#039;ll never think of a zoo the same way again. The awesome power of that mother-love. To be nurtured, held close, comforted.....thank God got those stand-in mothers. I found one along side the road who did that for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautiful. I&#39;ll never think of a zoo the same way again. The awesome power of that mother-love. To be nurtured, held close, comforted&#8230;..thank God got those stand-in mothers. I found one along side the road who did that for me.</p>
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		<title>By: joeinhell</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-194894</link>
		<dc:creator>joeinhell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 21:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-194894</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t go to zoos. period. forever.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The first female elephant in the United States to be bred was owned by the crooks who owned the Rocky Mountain News.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The female elephant promptly and apparently deliberately rolled over on the baby and crushed it.  I&#039;ve always wondered if just did not want her child to live in the hell they put her in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#39;t go to zoos. period. forever.</p>
<p>The first female elephant in the United States to be bred was owned by the crooks who owned the Rocky Mountain News.</p>
<p>The female elephant promptly and apparently deliberately rolled over on the baby and crushed it.  I&#39;ve always wondered if just did not want her child to live in the hell they put her in.</p>
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		<title>By: spirasol</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/39684/the-brilliance-and-sadness-of-zoos/comment-page-1/#comment-194866</link>
		<dc:creator>spirasol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=39684#comment-194866</guid>
		<description>&quot;A zoo is a place devised for animals to study the habits of human beings&quot;  --quoted anonymously&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Mothers losing the instinct...........innocence crying..........saved by man..........only to have the solution create another problem.  Heartbreaking. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I know I can&#039;t go to the zoo, anymore than I can go to a prison without clicking off my conscience to watch  what&#039;s left of wildness on display.  Yet, if I can do that, it&#039;s fun and sad, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A zoo is a place devised for animals to study the habits of human beings&#8221;  &#8211;quoted anonymously</p>
<p>Mothers losing the instinct&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..innocence crying&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.saved by man&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.only to have the solution create another problem.  Heartbreaking. </p>
<p>I know I can&#39;t go to the zoo, anymore than I can go to a prison without clicking off my conscience to watch  what&#39;s left of wildness on display.  Yet, if I can do that, it&#39;s fun and sad, too.</p>
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