Comments on: The Pragdealist Alternative: A Declaration of Independence http://themoderatevoice.com/36181/the-pragdealist-alternative-a-declaration-of-independence/ An Internet hub with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, indies, centrists, moderates, and right Wed, 30 May 2012 20:57:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Ethos http://themoderatevoice.com/36181/the-pragdealist-alternative-a-declaration-of-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-189830 Ethos Sun, 21 Jun 2009 04:41:57 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36181#comment-189830 DaGoat:<br><br>Fair points. People won't even agree on what "good" is, much less how to achieve the result.<br><br>Then again the people you listed would hardly agree on constitutional interpretation either. Can't win for trying. DaGoat:

Fair points. People won't even agree on what “good” is, much less how to achieve the result.

Then again the people you listed would hardly agree on constitutional interpretation either. Can't win for trying.

]]> By: DaGoat http://themoderatevoice.com/36181/the-pragdealist-alternative-a-declaration-of-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-189822 DaGoat Sun, 21 Jun 2009 02:22:24 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36181#comment-189822 <i>"The greatest good for the greatest number" is simply not possible in all circumstances if we intend to abide by constitutional law.</i><br><br>And it's really too nebulous. A capitalist would define "the greatest good for the greatest number" differently than a socialist. A devout Christian would define it differently than an atheist. All of them would believe following their own beliefs would do the greatest good.<br><br>While I agree in the concept of merging pragmatism and empathy, in practice I agree we are better off just following the constitution, which eventually should lead to the same outcomes. “The greatest good for the greatest number” is simply not possible in all circumstances if we intend to abide by constitutional law.

And it's really too nebulous. A capitalist would define “the greatest good for the greatest number” differently than a socialist. A devout Christian would define it differently than an atheist. All of them would believe following their own beliefs would do the greatest good.

While I agree in the concept of merging pragmatism and empathy, in practice I agree we are better off just following the constitution, which eventually should lead to the same outcomes.

]]> By: Ethos http://themoderatevoice.com/36181/the-pragdealist-alternative-a-declaration-of-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-189814 Ethos Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:57:05 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36181#comment-189814 Our government may be of, by, and for the people, but that doesn't mean the people always get what they want (or think they want). It doesn't mean they even get what they need, as we saw with women and slaves for a hundred years. Unless you manage to get a constitutional amendment, no majority of individuals is going to get their way if the result is a violation of existing laws.<br><br>"The greatest good for the greatest number" is simply not possible in all circumstances if we intend to abide by constitutional law. Basing a political movement on that philosophy is counter to American principles at best and potentially dangerous at worst. Our government may be of, by, and for the people, but that doesn't mean the people always get what they want (or think they want). It doesn't mean they even get what they need, as we saw with women and slaves for a hundred years. Unless you manage to get a constitutional amendment, no majority of individuals is going to get their way if the result is a violation of existing laws.

“The greatest good for the greatest number” is simply not possible in all circumstances if we intend to abide by constitutional law. Basing a political movement on that philosophy is counter to American principles at best and potentially dangerous at worst.

]]> By: rfyork http://themoderatevoice.com/36181/the-pragdealist-alternative-a-declaration-of-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-189809 rfyork Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:23:30 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36181#comment-189809 To me the politics should adhere to the following concept:<br><br>We should pursue our ideals in the most pragmatic manner possible.<br><br>That means that we should be wary of simple solutions to complex problems. <br><br>Ethos - I don't think Bentham was un-pragmatic. If one uses the US Constitution as the foundation for one's political ideals, it seems clear that, irrespective of their personal inclinations, the Founders believed that government is, to quote Lincoln, "..of the people, by the people and for the people..". What else could the "greatest good for the greatest number" mean?<br><br>Oh, and the above does not preclude representative government. To me the politics should adhere to the following concept:

We should pursue our ideals in the most pragmatic manner possible.

That means that we should be wary of simple solutions to complex problems.

Ethos – I don't think Bentham was un-pragmatic. If one uses the US Constitution as the foundation for one's political ideals, it seems clear that, irrespective of their personal inclinations, the Founders believed that government is, to quote Lincoln, “..of the people, by the people and for the people..”. What else could the “greatest good for the greatest number” mean?

Oh, and the above does not preclude representative government.

]]> By: Ethos http://themoderatevoice.com/36181/the-pragdealist-alternative-a-declaration-of-independence/comment-page-1/#comment-189805 Ethos Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:47:46 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36181#comment-189805 Last year before Obama overtook Clinton I volunteered for the McCain campaign. The choice was not only economically practical (I live in Phoenix after all), but also fairly easy on a political level. I never liked the Clintons - and while I'm sure some of that is the media bias we've lived with since 1992, they've earned most of the scorn - and I've always liked McCain, especially after he got trashed in the 2000 election. As an Independent I felt the rather strong draw from both campaigns last year and while I haven't always been the actual target of campaign literature or advertisements, I've never felt derided by them either.<br><br>So with that said - I'm not sure I could be a pragdealist. The greatest good for the greatest number, for instance, is not necessarily a viable objective within a constitutional government. My idealism is based on the constitution and other documents which form the foundation of our country and the rule of law. If a situation allows for the greater good to thrive while also observing these ideals, then all the better... but if not, then I'm afraid the greatest good may not be very popular. Last year before Obama overtook Clinton I volunteered for the McCain campaign. The choice was not only economically practical (I live in Phoenix after all), but also fairly easy on a political level. I never liked the Clintons – and while I'm sure some of that is the media bias we've lived with since 1992, they've earned most of the scorn – and I've always liked McCain, especially after he got trashed in the 2000 election. As an Independent I felt the rather strong draw from both campaigns last year and while I haven't always been the actual target of campaign literature or advertisements, I've never felt derided by them either.

So with that said – I'm not sure I could be a pragdealist. The greatest good for the greatest number, for instance, is not necessarily a viable objective within a constitutional government. My idealism is based on the constitution and other documents which form the foundation of our country and the rule of law. If a situation allows for the greater good to thrive while also observing these ideals, then all the better… but if not, then I'm afraid the greatest good may not be very popular.

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