Comments on: Iranian Women, Ayatollah: A Genesis of the Iranian Demonstrators http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/ An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right Mon, 23 Nov 2009 00:00:02 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: JillyDybka http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189879 JillyDybka Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:01:40 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189879 I grew up with a lot of Persians (Dearborn MI). Such a land of poets.<br><br>xoxox I grew up with a lot of Persians (Dearborn MI). Such a land of poets.

xoxox

]]> By: tinydoctor http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189833 tinydoctor Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:58:27 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189833 A Poem from the rooftops of Iran: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUZuv6_bus" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUZuv6_bus</a> A Poem from the rooftops of Iran: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUZuv6_bus

]]> By: Ghostdreams http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189654 Ghostdreams Sat, 20 Jun 2009 09:41:34 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189654 Doc,<br>Thank you very much for your kindness.<br>Your voice remains a constant reminder that our sorrow is not suffered in vain. <br>Somewhere, someplace, it does matter and it does make a difference.<br><br>Many blessings,<br>Ghosty Doc,
Thank you very much for your kindness.
Your voice remains a constant reminder that our sorrow is not suffered in vain.
Somewhere, someplace, it does matter and it does make a difference.

Many blessings,
Ghosty

]]> By: archangel http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189644 archangel Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:41:17 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189644 Dear Ghost, <br>thank you for the story out of/from your life. We have these 'lessons' that unfold suddenly in our lives. They become teaching points, reference points, over and over, seeing something different, hopefully more useful, each time... even though the examination seems to 'have to' open old scar tissue. <br><br>That we can still be affected by past hopes informed by current knowledge... those 'wish I could have, wanted to but couldnt figure out how, didnt have the resources, couldnt find the help needed, was so helpless, and often unknowing"... that we can still be affected, is a mark. Not of wrong. Rather of holding on to humanity despite our helplessness of the time. That we have still held to it, even though it or we might look awfully ragged at times. <br><br>I dont now that we get over 'remembering being helpless and the thoughts and feelings that go with it..." but often, we do not waste those memories by blowing them off, by diminutizing them, devaluing their magnitudes... but neither letting them lead all of our lives leaving a pall over us... neither of those.<br><br>Just remembered when remembered, and hopefully we can find ways to put the past to good/better/excellent use here and now. Like telling the story Ghost. Someone who needs it might see it, likely so. We never know, regardless of who diverts or scorns or throws away anyone's story, who will pick it up and dust it off and know and need its exact use.<br><br>Peace with you.<br><br>dr.e Dear Ghost,
thank you for the story out of/from your life. We have these 'lessons' that unfold suddenly in our lives. They become teaching points, reference points, over and over, seeing something different, hopefully more useful, each time… even though the examination seems to 'have to' open old scar tissue.

That we can still be affected by past hopes informed by current knowledge… those 'wish I could have, wanted to but couldnt figure out how, didnt have the resources, couldnt find the help needed, was so helpless, and often unknowing”… that we can still be affected, is a mark. Not of wrong. Rather of holding on to humanity despite our helplessness of the time. That we have still held to it, even though it or we might look awfully ragged at times.

I dont now that we get over 'remembering being helpless and the thoughts and feelings that go with it…” but often, we do not waste those memories by blowing them off, by diminutizing them, devaluing their magnitudes… but neither letting them lead all of our lives leaving a pall over us… neither of those.

Just remembered when remembered, and hopefully we can find ways to put the past to good/better/excellent use here and now. Like telling the story Ghost. Someone who needs it might see it, likely so. We never know, regardless of who diverts or scorns or throws away anyone's story, who will pick it up and dust it off and know and need its exact use.

Peace with you.

dr.e

]]> By: archangel http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189641 archangel Sat, 20 Jun 2009 05:31:22 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189641 dear TinyDoctor: <br>" If we're lucky, they will eventually become something like the equivalent of the English monarchy/House of Lords/Church of England prelates."<br><br>Thank you td. From your heart to God's mind.<br><br>dr.e dear TinyDoctor:
” If we're lucky, they will eventually become something like the equivalent of the English monarchy/House of Lords/Church of England prelates.”

Thank you td. From your heart to God's mind.

dr.e

]]> By: Ghostdreams http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189604 Ghostdreams Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:56:48 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189604 When I was in the Academy of Art (San Francisco), one semester, late at night, I received a phone call from one of the other students. <br>She was Iranian and literally begged to come over to my house. <br>She needed to speak to me. <br>It was not a good time in Iran and she was "in a lot of trouble." <br>I still don't understand all the "why's" of what happened that put her and her best friend into so much trouble but I do know that overnight (ok, exaggeration - it was 3 days), all the Iranian students were pulled out of the school and sent home. <br>My friend showed up and asked if I would marry her friend, Achmad (sp?). <br>And, did I know any man that could or would marry her. <br>Even as she sat in my living room asking me this rather bizarre thing, my phone started to ring, and there were more requests. More Iranian students asking about marriage...etc.<br>The woman I'm referring to, the one sitting in my living room, was a "modern" Iranian woman. She did not wear the veil and was having lots of fun with makeup and experimenting with new hairstyles.<br>She used birth control. <br>She loved to dance to any type of music but most especially she, at that time, liked dancing to punk rock (I did too, it was a short lived love but ya know)...<br>She was actively bisexual. <br>She smoked cigarettes (not often, but she did). <br>I couldn't swear to it but as I remember, she had a beer at my house once. <br>She was a woman with a deeply philosophical nature and was forever inquiring into different political ideologies and, which system worked best for who in what area of the world, was something she spoke about often. <br>She was endlessly fascinated by the different cultures that San Francisco was home to. <br>She really loved the City. She spent hours every day just walking around San Francisco to "watch" all the people. <br>She loved to go out and party at the gay bars (my apologies to the het's but in 1980 the best dance floors were to be found at the gay bars :D ). <br>She informed me that once she was sent home, her "modern lifestyle" would no longer be tolerated. Things had changed since she left and now, she would go home and be forced to live a life she no longer felt to be hers. <br>I thought I understood and expressed my regret and concern over her situation but I was at a loss. <br>What could I do?<br>I mean, in less than a half an hour I had many other students calling asking if I would either marry them, or a friend of theirs and frankly, I would lose most of my student support if I married one of these guys (most of these men came from families with money which would truly complicate me receiving scholarships, grants, etc) so ...?<br>As for my buddy herself..<br>I didn't know any male citizens that were up for marriage of any kind, much less one involving politics. <br>(I truly didn't .. I did try calling around and asking though .. nada). <br>Well, she lost it. She became hysterical. She was sobbing and pulling her hair screaming, "I won't be able to chose my husband! I will never be able to leave the house without a male in tow! My father says we have to go back to how it used to be or we'll be killed! You don't understand!" <br>My significant other (Linda) grabbed the woman and held her still until she calmed down (looking at me with this look of, "WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE?").<br>Linda apologized to Achmad but explained that she couldn't help out. Linda was Mexican and although she had been here since she was seven years old, she wasn't a citizen so, a marriage to her would possibly do more damage than good. <br>I explained, "If I marry you, all of student grants, loans and even my scholarship will come under question and, frankly, you can't support my college career....or can you?"<br>Achmad sighed and said, "No. My father might be able to come up with ten thousand dollars to pay you to marry me but dad feels that supporting me is more than enough. He'd never agree to support my wife through college as well." <br>So, no. This was not doable either. <br>After a few hours of trying to figure out what could be done (which was a gesture in futility if ever there was one), my buddy and her male friend left, very depressed and very upset. <br>Linda was quiet for days after this occurrence. <br>I found her reaction to the situation a bit odd. <br>Linda was one of the most down to earth, pragmatic, stoic women I had ever met. She loved to laugh but she would eat nails before she would cry. <br>She was acting like a woman in mourning. <br>I decided it was best to allow Linda to process this issue on her own and kept quiet. <br>However, two weeks later and Linda still wasn't talking, I finally asked her when was she going to get over this issue. <br>She told me, "I'm not really sure Chris.. I just keep thinking that I would rather die than be actually forced to return to Mexico."<br>She then broke into tears. <br><br>Now, twenty eight to thirty years later, I'm not sure how to feel about the incident. <br>I keep wondering why I didn't marry that fellow. At the time, I kept thinking, "My college? What about my college," and then, "marriage regardless of reason or reality (i.e. he and I would not have had a "real" marriage) can turn ugly very quickly..." <br>Now I sit and wonder how many of those students returned and were unhappy for the rest of their lives or were they unhappy? <br>Did they think they would be unhappy but when they got home, they found that it wasn't what they thought it would be and that actually it felt good to be home? <br>Did they go home and readjust? <br>And...<br>Where are they today?<br>Did those who really didn't "fit in" when they got back home manage to live through some of the madness that's occurred over there and did they make it to the streets the other night? <br>I'll never know for sure about the woman who came to my house but I was told that after arriving home and then trying in every way she possibly could to come back to the states, that six months later she committed suicide. <br>I don't know for sure though.<br>I'll never know ... <br>I think about Linda and how she reacted...<br>"forced to go return .."<br>(Shakes head)<br>It is ironic. <br>Before even finishing college (one class short) I would suffer a massive breakdown and get diagnosed with a psych disability and then wind up living in a VA hospital for the better part of seven years (8 months here, 3 months there, 7 months here.. altogether it actually adds up to seven years .. I'm amazed when I think about it for too long). <br>so, in truth, it wouldn't have mattered a bit if I had married that fellow. <br>I shoulda done it and at least he would have had more choices in his life. <br>I feel a deep, sad guilt over the whole thing. <br>I often cry for Iran. She suffers so. <br>I also know that there is at least one person over there that I could helped to make their life different and I made a choice that may have helped to make his life a misery. <br>I hope he's done well though .. <br>I hope for my buddy that she made it too. <br>I hope they all are well but fear they are not. <br><br>my two cents (and that's just about what my rambling is worth) LOL<br>Ghost When I was in the Academy of Art (San Francisco), one semester, late at night, I received a phone call from one of the other students.
She was Iranian and literally begged to come over to my house.
She needed to speak to me.
It was not a good time in Iran and she was “in a lot of trouble.”
I still don't understand all the “why's” of what happened that put her and her best friend into so much trouble but I do know that overnight (ok, exaggeration – it was 3 days), all the Iranian students were pulled out of the school and sent home.
My friend showed up and asked if I would marry her friend, Achmad (sp?).
And, did I know any man that could or would marry her.
Even as she sat in my living room asking me this rather bizarre thing, my phone started to ring, and there were more requests. More Iranian students asking about marriage…etc.
The woman I'm referring to, the one sitting in my living room, was a “modern” Iranian woman. She did not wear the veil and was having lots of fun with makeup and experimenting with new hairstyles.
She used birth control.
She loved to dance to any type of music but most especially she, at that time, liked dancing to punk rock (I did too, it was a short lived love but ya know)…
She was actively bisexual.
She smoked cigarettes (not often, but she did).
I couldn't swear to it but as I remember, she had a beer at my house once.
She was a woman with a deeply philosophical nature and was forever inquiring into different political ideologies and, which system worked best for who in what area of the world, was something she spoke about often.
She was endlessly fascinated by the different cultures that San Francisco was home to.
She really loved the City. She spent hours every day just walking around San Francisco to “watch” all the people.
She loved to go out and party at the gay bars (my apologies to the het's but in 1980 the best dance floors were to be found at the gay bars :D ).
She informed me that once she was sent home, her “modern lifestyle” would no longer be tolerated. Things had changed since she left and now, she would go home and be forced to live a life she no longer felt to be hers.
I thought I understood and expressed my regret and concern over her situation but I was at a loss.
What could I do?
I mean, in less than a half an hour I had many other students calling asking if I would either marry them, or a friend of theirs and frankly, I would lose most of my student support if I married one of these guys (most of these men came from families with money which would truly complicate me receiving scholarships, grants, etc) so …?
As for my buddy herself..
I didn't know any male citizens that were up for marriage of any kind, much less one involving politics.
(I truly didn't .. I did try calling around and asking though .. nada).
Well, she lost it. She became hysterical. She was sobbing and pulling her hair screaming, “I won't be able to chose my husband! I will never be able to leave the house without a male in tow! My father says we have to go back to how it used to be or we'll be killed! You don't understand!”
My significant other (Linda) grabbed the woman and held her still until she calmed down (looking at me with this look of, “WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE?”).
Linda apologized to Achmad but explained that she couldn't help out. Linda was Mexican and although she had been here since she was seven years old, she wasn't a citizen so, a marriage to her would possibly do more damage than good.
I explained, “If I marry you, all of student grants, loans and even my scholarship will come under question and, frankly, you can't support my college career….or can you?”
Achmad sighed and said, “No. My father might be able to come up with ten thousand dollars to pay you to marry me but dad feels that supporting me is more than enough. He'd never agree to support my wife through college as well.”
So, no. This was not doable either.
After a few hours of trying to figure out what could be done (which was a gesture in futility if ever there was one), my buddy and her male friend left, very depressed and very upset.
Linda was quiet for days after this occurrence.
I found her reaction to the situation a bit odd.
Linda was one of the most down to earth, pragmatic, stoic women I had ever met. She loved to laugh but she would eat nails before she would cry.
She was acting like a woman in mourning.
I decided it was best to allow Linda to process this issue on her own and kept quiet.
However, two weeks later and Linda still wasn't talking, I finally asked her when was she going to get over this issue.
She told me, “I'm not really sure Chris.. I just keep thinking that I would rather die than be actually forced to return to Mexico.”
She then broke into tears.

Now, twenty eight to thirty years later, I'm not sure how to feel about the incident.
I keep wondering why I didn't marry that fellow. At the time, I kept thinking, “My college? What about my college,” and then, “marriage regardless of reason or reality (i.e. he and I would not have had a “real” marriage) can turn ugly very quickly…”
Now I sit and wonder how many of those students returned and were unhappy for the rest of their lives or were they unhappy?
Did they think they would be unhappy but when they got home, they found that it wasn't what they thought it would be and that actually it felt good to be home?
Did they go home and readjust?
And…
Where are they today?
Did those who really didn't “fit in” when they got back home manage to live through some of the madness that's occurred over there and did they make it to the streets the other night?
I'll never know for sure about the woman who came to my house but I was told that after arriving home and then trying in every way she possibly could to come back to the states, that six months later she committed suicide.
I don't know for sure though.
I'll never know …
I think about Linda and how she reacted…
“forced to go return ..”
(Shakes head)
It is ironic.
Before even finishing college (one class short) I would suffer a massive breakdown and get diagnosed with a psych disability and then wind up living in a VA hospital for the better part of seven years (8 months here, 3 months there, 7 months here.. altogether it actually adds up to seven years .. I'm amazed when I think about it for too long).
so, in truth, it wouldn't have mattered a bit if I had married that fellow.
I shoulda done it and at least he would have had more choices in his life.
I feel a deep, sad guilt over the whole thing.
I often cry for Iran. She suffers so.
I also know that there is at least one person over there that I could helped to make their life different and I made a choice that may have helped to make his life a misery.
I hope he's done well though ..
I hope for my buddy that she made it too.
I hope they all are well but fear they are not.

my two cents (and that's just about what my rambling is worth) LOL
Ghost

]]> By: tinydoctor http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189574 tinydoctor Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:43:47 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189574 Btw, h/t to @t3knomser for the latter trope. Btw, h/t to @t3knomser for the latter trope.

]]> By: tinydoctor http://themoderatevoice.com/36035/iranian-women-ayatollah-a-genesis-of-the-iranian-demonstrators/comment-page-1/#comment-189570 tinydoctor Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:37:17 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/?p=36035#comment-189570 Yes. The protesters cry Allahu Akbar. In emulation of Islamic Revolutionaries that overthrew the American-backed Shah.<br><br>Mousavi is a gentler, kinder face of Persian Shia Islam, but, per Daniel Larison, it's Moslems not Zorasterians out there in the streets. <br><br>As your post inadvertantly points out, the Greens in Iran are not secular; they see Ahmadinejad & Ayatollah Ali K as betraying the Islamic Revolution, not forcing it on them. They seek reform not overthrow. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's still political Islam. The Ayatollahs are not going away. If we're lucky, they will eventually become something like the equivalent of the English monarchy/House of Lords/Church of England prelates. Yes. The protesters cry Allahu Akbar. In emulation of Islamic Revolutionaries that overthrew the American-backed Shah.

Mousavi is a gentler, kinder face of Persian Shia Islam, but, per Daniel Larison, it's Moslems not Zorasterians out there in the streets.

As your post inadvertantly points out, the Greens in Iran are not secular; they see Ahmadinejad & Ayatollah Ali K as betraying the Islamic Revolution, not forcing it on them. They seek reform not overthrow. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's still political Islam. The Ayatollahs are not going away. If we're lucky, they will eventually become something like the equivalent of the English monarchy/House of Lords/Church of England prelates.

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