Where is the Conservative Outrage at the Torture Memos?
Taking a brief glance over at Memeorandum I can’t help but notice the radio silence from the Right on the release of the Bush OLC torture memos. Andrew Sullivan made the same point earlier today. The biggest voices on the right – Malkin, Instapundit, Drudge – have said absolutely nothing about the release of these stunning memos.
Why is this worth mentioning?
Because, just yesterday, these same figures on the Right touted a nationwide series of demonstrations against all sorts of supposed government oppression. In hundreds of demonstrations around the country, protesters waved placards proclaiming Obama a fascist, supporting individual liberty, and decrying the Federal government’s abridgment of Constitutional limitations.
And so, the very next day, we get explicit evidence that the Federal government DID, in fact, live out the fears of these protesters by shredding all legal proscriptions against torture. So, where is the outrage on the Right about this? I thought the protesters were angry at Obama AND Bush for “expanding the government.” Surely, there is no greater expansion of the government than the ability to disregard all Constitutional protections of detainees, and then to torture suspects – some of whom have been PROVEN to be completely innocent.
Needless to say, none of this surprises me. I saw through these protests for the partisan joke that they were. When they mean “liberty,” they just mean no taxes for wealthy people or the right to own any firearm they desire. But any definition of “liberty” beyond that boundary is unknown to these folks…unless, of course, they themselves are the target of the DHS.
So here it is: If you can’t express at least some degree of outrage over the OLC torture memos released today, you cannot claim to be a lover or defender of liberty.
83 Responses to “Where is the Conservative Outrage at the Torture Memos?”
I know it won't surprise you. I am outraged. Prosecute them. May every creepy sinister despicable one of them breathe their last breath in prison.
I'm also not surprised at the silence from the cheerleaders. Blood on their hands too.
Perhaps being cooped up in a small holding cell with a single caterpillar, or a single moth, or a single fly does not constitute physical torture. Such a play on the irrational fears of such miscreants is not torture any more than is piping the “Barney Song” into their cells.
elrod, elrod, elrod…. you're so naive…..
“Where is the conservative outrage at the torture memos?” I say: Be careful what you wish for.
We're talking about Republicans here who howled that Obama did nothing to stop pirates from attacking our ships, taking hostages and threatening their lives for a few days. And then when that controversy died down they turned on their heels and started howling that Obama killed innocent teenagers who wanted nothing more than to just go home. The Republicans want nothing more than to continually pound Obama with bad press, even if it means making crap up.
Seriously…. you're not giving the Republicans enough credit. For while they may be lousy, inept and incompetent idiots who are as disorganized as pigs on feeding day when it comes to formulating actual productive plans that will help the typical American, they are absolutely brilliant in organizing and coming up with attacks on Obama.
The only reason they're taking more than their usual MINUS 2 days (remember before Obama was EVEN IN OFFICE the GOP claimed that he and his policies were to blame for the economic disaster)…. is because they would have to admit that their own heros (Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Addington, etc.) were involved.
Of course the GOP doesn't want to implicate their heros, they only want to hammer and attack Obama while they and anyone associated with the GOP come out smelling like roses.
Usually in a situation like this I would say that not even a miracle from God could help the Republicans keep their own guys from being implicated…. But we are talking about Republicans and they do have a knack of being able to suspend the laws of common sense, reason, civilized society, the rule of law, etc. in a much more jaw-dropping way than even God can do. This little controversy has just caused them to pause for a moment. Nothing to be alarmed about. Wait until tomorrow after they've had time to plan their attack. Even Moses had to wait for the Red Sea to part before he and his followers could cross.
There isn't any. Don't you know the Bible says to “torture thine enemy”?
Don't you go to Sunday school???
…lol…
Where's the right wing outrage? Jeez, the people that were being subjected to this “torture” are enemies of the United States. That's right, these people are -enemies-, as in -war-. The fact of the matter is that anything the left is outraged about is a total and complete lie. The American left is completely devoid of any morals or loyalty, a bunch of Japanese car driving import buying traitors running around the world telling everyone how much they hate the USA.
The torture memos are the case in point. After all of this talk about how terrible Bush's torture was, we find out that the evil George Bush was sticking insects into rooms with enemies. If anything, these memos will make Bush more popular among the right wing than he was before. Yeah, that's the terrible thing Bush did. We capture Al Qaeda people, and exploit a fear of insects. What a joke.
Meanwhile, the left wing is out there buying all these Japanese cars, doing nothing while Detroit goes up in smoke, and let's see, which political party let Hirohito off the hook for World War II? Which political party gave the fricking head of Japanese biological warfare experiments a goddamned job after he murdered a million Chinese people in the pursuit of perfecting a delivery agent?
Left wing outrage is a fraud.
Where's the left going to be defending the American worker when Chrysler goes bankrupt. Do you think the greatest President ever might lift a hand to slow down the pace of foreign imports, you know, the way Ronald Reagan did?
tjstork,
Have you paid any attention to who has supported import cars the most? Here's a hint. They are disproportionately:
1) Southern
2) Republican
3) Conservative
My fine Senator Bob Corker has made quite a stink about letting Chrysler and GM go under. Oh, and here in heavily conservative Republican East Tennessee, the locals all drive Japanese import trucks. Perhaps you've missed the last 30 years but the left is trying to save Detroit. The right wants it dead.
weird comment stork. many of those tortured have been proven innocent. they were turned in for lucrative bounties. you're misinformed.
and the right has railed against bailing out automakers. where have you been?
Elrod, that's a joke. Imports are overwhelmingly brought in by the left because they overwhelmingly loath American culture. The “working man” is just cannon fodder for your votes. Well, we're going to regroup and take them from you. You guys can be the party of free trade and making all your buddies overseas love you. We will have the message of kicking these products the hell out.
If you want to convince me that the left is so hell bent on free trade, let me see every Prius with a bumper sticker traded in on an American car. You guys don't even like the idea of a country, and you certainly don't like the idea of the USA. Every time you see someone say “buy American”, you automatically think Yahoo as you smugly drive your VWs and BMWs and Saabs and Toyotas and say,”look how smart I am because I don't buy American.”
“Imagine there's no country”… that was your guy that said that, not ours.
I'll give you that Republicans were completely wrong on free trade. We really thought that if we opened up our borders and shared trade with the rest of the world, it would help the country. But, it didn't work.
But hey, you can prove me wrong. You can have your President limit imported cars to two million per year, the same way Reagan did. I'm not going to hold my breath, and neither should you. When's that quota coming… you let me know.
GreenDreams,
The hard right commentators do not speak for the natural American right wing. Those guys are doing the same dumb thing liberals did after Reagan, which is to think they just needed to be liberal better, and people would come and believe. Nope, they have to let go of old ideas and define a new sort of conservatism and that is what I'm going to help build.
We already have the working man interested because of social values and we can get the working man altogether if we put a better economic deal on the table. Fine, we'll see your socialism and raise you one protectionism. Liberalism is innately internationalist and as much as you talk the working man talk, you can't be popular overseas while at the same time telling the people of Europe or Japan to pound sand on trade.
So what have you come up with? What's Obama's vision, really? It's a half assed plan to take the handful of people getting rich off of free trade… everybody gets enough welfare bucks and stimulus bucks to buy a t-shirt made in China. Big f—- deal. Redistribution of wealth to get rid of the consequences of globalization is really not anywhere close to being as good as getting rid of globalization. Your side would never make that big of a radical leap, but we will.
Come to Tennessee, my friend, and see all those “America haters” driving Toyota Tundras and Nissan Pathfinders – many of them with Republican bumper stickers. Hell, there's one jerk around the corner with a Toyota pickup truck and a huge Confederate flag on it. Oh, and he has an obscene “I have a dream too” bumper sticker…with a Confederate flag on it. You think he's a liberal? LOL.
You're stuck in 1970s America when imports were much more popular in California. But that's changed now, as Japanese companies make cars in the South – which is why the Republican Party so adamantly supports the import car market.
You've obviously a Buchananite. I doubt any candidate in the GOP will be espousing your economic values anytime soon.
ACLU’s Five Year Quest For Secret Bush Administration Torture Memos Ends Today With A Small Fraction Of Released Info…
Meanwhile, The Obama Administration Chooses To Keep Perhaps The Most Damning Evidence Of Criminal Activity Under The Belt
Looks like the Bush Administration version of the Department of Justice’s (”DoJ” for acronym “freaks……
Corker's a dick, I'll give you that. I can't stand him.
For me, its pretty simple. If we can be the gung ho pro-America party with the flag sticker on the back of the old truck, that truck had better damn well be made in the USA.
But to get back to the subject at hand.. the whole torture thing seriously does come off as light weight and it almost insults the word torture to call it torture. You have to keep in mind that the audience on the right that is supposed to be appalled by all of this will kinda think its good riddance. Torture to us like what happened to Leon Klinghoffer.. shot a guy in a wheelchair and tossed him off of a boat. Torture is the US serviceman that was kicked to death by a bunch of hijackers in the 1980s. Torture is the CIA station chief in Lebanon getting beaten and whipped to death. Torture is all the crap the Vietnamese did to our vets. Torture is the Bataan Death March, or, on the German side, the sending of some of our Jewish airmen to Aushwitz and Dachau.
By contrast, you've got the Bush administration making sure that the guy's head is properly padded so he won't get hurt when he's thrown up against a wall, and, in the memos, a repeated emphasis on avoiding actually physically hurting some of the senior leaders of our current enemy. To us, compared to what our enemies treat the USA – hey do remember our servicemen getting dragged down the street in Somalia… or, hey, how about all the stories about American women getting stuck in Iran and having their husbands beat the crap out of them. Or, more to the point, the Taliban shooting women in a soccer stadium for mass entertainment, because, jeez, they learned how to read.
To us, these memos don't point to an administration torturing. If anything, it seems like they are acting justly, and far superior, as usual, to any enemy the USA not only has now, but has had since World War I.
As a moderate conservative I'm pretty outraged and have been so for a long time with the Bush administration. Now I'm outraged with the Obama administration for upholding the Bush approach on so many issues and in protecting those guilty of violations and in preventing the very transparency he promised to deliver.
I throw my stones at Conservative sites for not bringing up these issues but I also throw them at liberal ones and the media for being so limited in their criticism of Obama for continuation and even going beyong the Bush administration on state secrets and telecom immunity.
Buchananite? That's not too bad but the problem with Pat is that he picks on gays too much and has no love for Jews. That just doesn't fly. But I do think he's got a lot of good points about being a Republic, not an Empire.
See, no, in the northeast USA, where I'm from, its the wingers that buy American stuff and the liberals that all drive foreign cars. But, the thing really is, if the imports were so popular in the South, then you would see them on the NASCAR circuit, and I know Jeff Gordon is not driving a Toyota.
Hey Leonidas… where Republicans really dropped the ball was on the budget… Bush should have never run the deficits he ran. I wrote they were criminal even back when he was running them.
So the Obama administration gives the torturers and their superiors a Get Out of Jail Free card and your take is to be mad at conservatives? I've been trying to read the pdf's but I guess so is everybody else since I can't download them.
To us, these memos don't point to an administration torturing.
That's because you have lost your souls. Saying that “holding a man's head” while slamming him against a wall makes that not harmful, not painful, and not torture is sick. When you read detailed instructions to put Abu Zubaydah in a pitch-black coffin or coffin-like enclosure and tell him there are stinging insects in there with him to exploit his fear of insects and transform that into “sticking insects into rooms with enemies,” all you are doing is revealing how utterly coarsened you have become in heart, mind, and spirit.
And to chsw, who sneers at a detainee's fear of insects as an “irrational fear of such miscreants,” obviously it's an irrational fear, that's what phobias generally are, Einstein. Many people have a strong fear of insects, I am one of them. I am terrified of mosquitoes, for example. If someone put me in a coffin-like container with even one mosquito, well I don't want to even imagine it. I can feel the terror of that experience viscerally, even though thank god it's never happened to me.
Remember how Bush used to say “We don't torture people.” He said that for a reason, and that reason was not that the U.S. actually was not torturing people. Of course the U.S. was torturing people, we all know that now except for zombies like you who have lost all human feeling. But Bush could not say that. Why? Because the U.S. is not supposed to torture people. Torture is wrong, and torture is illegal, and torture is utterly immoral, and has no purpose other than getting sadistic pleasure out of the pain and terror of others. If there was nothing wrong with what those memos described, nothing illegal, nothing inhumane, nothing monstrous or evil, then Bush would have felt free to tell us all exactly what was being done to these people in our names and with our tax dollars. But Bush, at least, knew damn well that these things were torture. In that way, he is apparently one step ahead of you.
tjstork, get a grip. I thought “imported” cars were built in the US…. Mercedes has an auto plant in Alabama. So does Honda and Hyundai. Other states have other manufacturing facilities for other cars, too.
And these companies' have a big presence. See, for instance, “Anna, OH” in the below link.
http://corporate.honda.com/america/facilities.aspx
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A…
“The Vance [AL] plant is already German parent Daimler AG's sole global source for the Mercedes M class, R class and GL class.'
http://www.hmmausa.com/
That's right… these cars are built in America, by Americans for Americans (and others who like our products). In case you didn't know America produces a lot of high quality products. Our economy, the largest in the world, is almost a quarter of the world's output. Even though we only have less than 5% of the world's population.
When I drive down the road I see Hondas or Toyotas or Mercedes I think to myself, “I am proud to be an American. The skill of American workers is so highly prized that foreign companies trust us to build these state of the art machines right here, rather than in lower cost countries. These cars provide hundreds of thousands of jobs in the US.”
I don't know about you but given the choice between a foreign company opening a plant here to make $5.00 widgets or some of the most complicated machines on earth (and have you looked at the complexity of cars, not just wheels on metal with seats glued in, but lean mean driving machines.
Check out this link on the Mercedes GL class, where everyone you see anywhere in the world is built in Alabama:
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/#/exploreOverview…
That's a pretty nice vehicle.
So I get tired hearing the same old “woe is me” tall tales from Americans who claim that imported cars take away American jobs. Au contraire… many, if not most are built right here in the good ol' USA.
So the next time you're holding in your hand some cheap bauble made in China, just remember that the more highly skilled and more highly paid jobs are given to Americans by foreign companies from all over the world.
Oh and by the way… you are right that the Prius is built outside the US. However Toyota will begin building the Prius in Mississippi (as in next door to Alabama) next year. Toyota has 13 plants in North America and employs more than 43,000 workers. So sneer at those Priuses all you want, but also know that if we Americans did not want them then Toyota would not have plans to build them in the US, creating jobs for US workers.
If you cant perform, then you pay the price. GM and Chrysler cant perform. They are so busy pandering to Unions and those Rich Democrats who make 100 grand a year for 50 bolts a day on a bumper that they forgot to make cars that people actually wanted.
Its the way it works. If your not first your last…….hey did I think of that? Sounds like a good ole southern boy speaking now.
Anyway. Sorry GM….Been nice knowing ya. Too bad that those rich democrats who wont be paying one more damn dime in income tax will be on welfare in the coming years because they could not take pay cuts and concessions from that evil company that paid them for life and the lives of their children.
Wanna see what happens to the USSR and GM under socialist/communist policies………Just look at GM. This is what happens when you cant pay your bills and can no longer compete.
No GM will not go broke because the Democrats will save them and they will keep on producing shitty cars and they will keep on getting paid 100k a year and have life time benefits that extend to their childrens children and they will keep on railing against capitalism as a big evil.
But in the midst of all that…….all the left cares about is hanging someone……..any gawd dayum one as long as it makes us feel good.
Ill see your tea party and raise you some Bush Torture Memos.
Hey Braindead,
When you are at the t party, talking about individual responsibility, maybe think about foisting all those Bush budget deficits on our kids for the iraq war we started. If we want to buy f-22s, then, um, are those tea party people going to pay for them.
guess my question is, if the south is so big into competition and competing and individual responsibility, when in the hell are you going to stop bleeding the north for taxes because you people can't carry your own weight.
fact of the matter is, protectionism isn't communist. protectionism was how the north won the civil war… the north kept foreign goods out of the country, making itself capable of gaining industry and learning how to build things. the south just kept doing the same dumb thing with imported goods and low wage labor… kinda like now.
except now you redneck dumbasses are dragging the whole country down with you.
always knew southerners were traitors.
next time we have a civil war, we'll just nuke your sorry hillbilly asses
general sherman did not burn down enough
Hey tjstork
Now your talking a good old fashion nuke fest over GM going broke because they were run by idiots and the Unions believed that GM had trillions in their hidden bank accounts.
And your calling me a dum ass hillbilly?
Actually there ARE Toyotas in NASCAR now.
The problem with “buy America” overall is that it's hard to determine exactly where a car is made. Quite often an “American car” is made in Canada while a “Japanese car” is made in Kentucky. Then there's the suppliers. My town has a Japanese supplier – Denso. But it supplies parts to both Nissan and GM.
The industry is completely intertwined.
Where was the Democratic leadership outrage when they were initially briefed on the 'torture' methods to be used?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar…
Oh wait, they were only outraged AFTER it became public, and the perceived threat was lower, and they could attack Bush/Cheney with impunity. I mean, we wouldn't want them showing backbone, would we?
I say again, as I have so often – hypocrites.
I don't really want to nuke the south, but, all this talk from southern senators regarding letting the US auto industry go down in the name of free trade smacks falsely when the red states are so strongly the beneficiaries of agricultural protectionism. If the USA had free trade in food like it did manufacturing, there would be no Georgia peaches or Louisiana sugar, Texas beef or Florida oranges. Americans would get cheaper beef from Argentina and Chile, sugar from Cuba, and so on. But it would be a cold day in hell before Republicans ever stopped subsidizing American farms to the tune of what, nearly 200B at the last go around, and that's not counting all the biofuels mandates, really, just farm handouts in disguise.
Look, GM did some stupid stuff…. but the fact of the matter is that GM would not be going down if we were not letting so many foreign cars in. Everyone says that protectionism is wrong but:
a) It works for American agriculture. See above. Every year we write checks to American farmers the same amount that we prop up GM with. And that's not even counting all the subsidies on sugar, corn, beef, chicken, and so on.
b) Milton Friedman wrote, and Ben Bernanke seconded, that the Great Depression was not caused by the Smoot Holley tarriffs, but rather because of a monetary problem. The Federal Reserve allowed the money supply to contract severely and that caused the depression.
c) During its period of industrial expansion, from the antebellum period up through the 1920s, the USA was very protectionist. By far Europe had better manufacturing at the time. British manufacturing of many things was outstanding, German steel was better, and in a lot of arms the French, yes, the French were the best. But, the USA became a manufacturing superpower because we locked out the foreign competition. American steel did improve to match German steel. Americans out mass produced the British. And, well, American aircraft and artillery did surpass the French, although the Germans gave us a big hand with that in 1940….
d) The only American industries that have significantly expanded during the free trade era are those industries that are subsidized by the US government, or protected in some fashion. Patents protect the technology industry, as does, frankly military subsidies and buy american provisions in government contracting. Banking expands radically because of restrictions in foreign ownership of American banks. During the height of the banking crisis, the Saudis could have bought Citibank with a personal check…. but nope, that wouldn't fly.
IF free trade is working so well, can we have a date as to when the USA will not run a trade deficit. Is that going to be this year? When will we have a trade surplus? If free trade is so good, then what's the date?
As for the memos, I can see the point about “not knowing how far we've gone downhill”. That could be true. If that is the case, then wouldn't it make sense to withdraw from all of these spots around the world. Right now the USA is on the hook to militarily defend SEVENTY countries. Why? I don't think too many of them fought with us in Iraq in any meaningful way, except for the British. Maybe its time to just get rid of this whole empire, focus on the republic, kick out the foreign products sufficiently to balance the trade deficit, and focus on the USA and not the world.
kathyedits, “Remember how Bush used to say “We don't torture people”? He said that for a reason, and that reason was not that the U.S. actually was not torturing people. Of course the U.S. was torturing people, we all know that now except for zombies like you who have lost all human feeling. But Bush could not say that. Why? Because the U.S. is not supposed to torture people.” (And the rest of the post for that matter….
I couldn't agree with you more. Well said. Thanks.
What Austin said.
Increasingly I'm really worried out conservatives attacking liberals for not being properly outraged about the correct outrageous acts of our government, and liberals attacking conservatives for not being properly outraged about the correct outrageous acts of our government. Lost in the shuffle is that the politicians elected by each group are committing acts which often are outrageous and could only be stopped if we the people stop fighting among ourselves over who among us is more hypocritical and unite in opposition against ALL of it.
I mean, how is this not the biggest game of 'Let's you and him fight” that our politicians are playing? Isn't it clear to anyone yet that we're doing their bidding when we decide we can't sympathize with the arguments that one side of the political spectrum makes against the government (even if we'd normally agree with at least some of the complaints) because we don't like the fact that they're not supporting us in our own chief complaints? I agree there's hypocrisy, but one man's hypocrisy is another man's reasonable rationalization.
At minimum, shouldn't we focus first on the hypocrisy of elected officials of the party we each agree with more, for THEIR hypocrisy, and presume that the voters and commenters on the other side have been somewhat duped to accept these things just as people of our own party's have?
Elrod and TJStork, do either of you have any stats to show whether winguts or moonbats buy more foreign cars?
Seems to me that you both can assert your opinion on who supports the American auto industry more based on different sets of observations: the left supports the idea of Detroit more, politically, while many prominent liberals do drive imports (I think there was a story recently about the wheels belonging to Obama admin people being more foreign than not.)
And conservatives (anecdotal evidence in my small Southern town) tend to buy American (esp trucks) and express a lot of pride about doing so.
And then there's the rest of us who want to have pride in the American auto industry but gave up in disgust a long time ago when it stopped becoming possible to buy a car from the big three that didn't break frequently or lose all of its value long before 100,000 miles.
And Elrod, you bring up the fact of Japanese plants in the Southern US states- which obviously would be a reason that some of those Southern conservatives have no compunction about buying the Japanese models. Is there really anything wrong with that, if the idea is to support American workers? Who benefits from supporting the Big Three automakers, other than the management of those companies and the unions (and local economies and workers, of course.) I'm not saying that it's wrong for someone to take up the cause of those workers, but I don't see why we should support the lousy practices of those companies- if they can't produce decent product, they should face the consequences.
From what I understand, a lot of parts for US automakers' cars are made abroad, so that no one is really buying a “made in America' car altogether. Either you're buying one that has parts made abroad but assembled here by a US owned corporation, or you're buying one that has parts from abroad but assembled here by a foreign owned company. Is it really important then, to support GM, Ford, and Chrysler for the sake of having an American automaker's medallion on the back of your vehicle?
AR
Those in congress who were told these details were constrained by law from making them public. I thought you knew that.
Congress people being notified about these acts aren't asked if it's ok or not. They don't have a right to approve or disprove of the actions. It is only when water boarding became public that complaints followed. Doing so earlier would have ben illegal.
The flip side of course is that I hate that many of the things I complained about are now being maintained to a lesser degree. It's tough, but some things must be maintained.
I have no problem with rendition for example, it was the rendition to countries that make no pretense to following the Geneva Connection I had a problem with. Outsourcing prisoners for the purpose of torture is a moral abomination.
The NSA wiretap program as maintained by Obama is flat wrong. The legal argument that innocent people cannot find redress through the court is as bad for the Constitution absolute BS.
Hemm, I find myself wondering if you're really as naive as some of your recent comments would suggest.
Are you aware of the harsh criticism from the left that Pelosi's received on this issue? Because the evidence clearly shows that she wasn't 'constrained' from speaking out, she was in the room asking whether the interrogation techniques were tough enough.
Read and let the scales fall from your eyes, if you are open to seeing things as they really are.
Also, this, Hemm. It explains why the excuse of being sworn to secrecy doesn't hold. The whole purpose of briefings is for Congress to have the information needed for their oversight role, and they're briefed about something that appears illegal or immoral, then they're primary duty is to uphold their Constitutional duty to oversight. If there's a conflict between their agreement to secrecy and their duty to oversee, the latter has to prevail.
I read all those memorandums and am not outraged. Again it goes back to the idea that the left is driving the argument and defining the debate.
I reject the notion that any of that was torture. I reject your definition of torture.
There hows that. Outraged……..No Im outraged that we have spent a trillion with no end in sight and now the left wants to hide their spending spree by doubling down and raising torture memos to the rights apparent tea parties.
Obama ………your an A**Hole.
HemmD – they didn't even raise any objections in private or during the briefing (with apparently one, lone exception), or with the Administration, until AFTER it became public. So sorry, your defense of the Democrats fails the smell test.
Come on Obama you know you want to try and hang all those lawyers who interpreted the constitution and the law. Now the outraged left wants to define what is torture. Like standing a guy against a false wall is torture…….Oh the horror of it all. Like having a doctor standing by to make sure he has the proper medical care………the humanity of it all…..
Outrage……sure Come on Obama you know you want to try those Ahole publicans. Put them on public trials. Stop dragging this stuff out. Stop threatening to issue more memorandums if the right does something to get power. STop being JIMMY CARTER. BE a man. Stand up you spinless whimp and try the Right. All of us. After all many of us on the right and some on the left agreed with the NSA wiretaps and the increased pressure on terrorist prisioners.
Try us all. Its what your good at. Dividing the country. YOU ARE THE GREAT DIVIDER OBAMA……..and your good at it too.
I see you your terror memorandums and raise you unconstitutional deficits.
So I suggest that in the future when a lawyer interprets the law and he is wrong and it turns out to be struck down as unconstitutional that that lawyer be tried and Hung.
After all. This is a great prescedent going after lawyers who interpret the law. Right or wrong. Great Idea Democrats. Go after one of your best PACs….maybe they will all join the GOP after your done trying them for being wrong on their legal adivce.
Great idea. Come on Obama…..sic em.
Just wanted to add that I think that Obama is handling this as well as can be expected IMO. He's allowing the facts to be made public but trying to take the focus off of individual culpability (which to me is appropriate because the reason anyone condoned this stuff is that that's they way it's been done forever- the only difference is that we're now admitting it and talking about it instead of pretending that the stuff that goes on in the shadows isn't really happening.)
AR and CS
Nice to see you
I followed the links so helpfully provided.
CS Read your own link. It specifically states that the speaker cannot be identified as a congressperson who “cheered on.” Naturally, you ignored my point, that only when torturing became public did these politicians complain. I'm not hear to defend Ms Pelosi, are you here to attack her?
One went through the legal channels again, thanks for that link too.
Rep Harman
“Harman, who replaced Pelosi as the committee's top Democrat in January 2003, disclosed Friday that she filed a classified letter to the CIA in February of that year as an official protest about the interrogation program.”
Some recourse, a classified letter that by law could not be made public.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. When stuff becomes public, it gets challenged.
AR, the freedom of speech is constrained in this case just like MOST of our Constitutional rights.
Right, Hemm, Harman's letter I believe is what AR referred to as the one lone exception. She acted with principle, although that action didn't go far enough. That was probably the most appropriate first step, and then as it was ignored she should then have mobilized the others on the committee to proceed further and figure out all their options for providing oversight (including resorting to breaking the vow of secrecy if that proved the only way to get action.)
Do you necessarily consider all criticisms of public officials 'attacks' as you're characterizing my comment on Pelosi? How do we hold oversight over those we elect if we don't speak out against them when we believe they've failed to uphold their responsbilities?
CS
I agree with you completely.
What are your thoughts on the idea of a truth commission? I know that many feel that jail is not enough, but to me, legal charges etc, would only spark a political firestorm. South Africa's truth commission went a long way to present the terrible facts of apartheid while helping their country to heal. It may have a chance performing a similar service with the US.
In theory I support it but I honestly think all commissions lately have been overly politicized, to the point that the partisanship appears like a virus that we have to find a way to eradicate before there's any such thing as nonpartisan truth.
CS
I was reacting to your snarkiness. Somebody was being attacked and I chose Pelosi.
It's not only our right to criticize officials, it's our duty as far as I'm concerned. Breaking security issues to the public during time of war is frowned upon by people and the law. It appears the only time it's legal to make secrets public is if you're the Vice President as in the Plane case.
You seem awfully concerned with the Democrats doing their duty. How about all the Republicans that knew of torture and did nothing?
The only statements of fact I see in this post are that 1) Republicans reversed their stand after the Somali pirates were killed and 2) Republicans blamed Obama for the economic problems before he took office.
Can you tell me which Republicans reversed their stand after the successful Somali operation? The ones I heard were very positive about the actions Obama took, but some were concerned about whether the tough stand would continue against the pirates.
There was a little logic about saying Obama was partially responsible for the economic crisis because of some of his statements during the campaign and shortly after the election. I think this is a weak connection, but everything is commonly exaggerated in political rhetoric, wrongly in my opinion.
The rest of this post is ad hominem attacks. I wish we could elevate the debate.
Holder decided not to prosecute them because they committed no crime. See 18USC2340.
I specifically chose to write that the Committee members all had that duty, not just the Dems on the committee, Hemm.
The only more partisan commentary I have on that is that voters who think that the interrogation techniques were wrong but their elected officials can be excused for turning a blind eye (or enabling and even encouraging it) are being blind partisans. There is more of that on the Dem side because more Dem voters feel that way about the issue. That's not to say that I agree with the majority of GOP voters on it- I think those who condone the techniques are wrong, but they're not part of my specific complaint of partisan excuse making- they're just wrong for other reasons.
And I expect that you'll consistently question everyone's tone if you're going to hold me to task for being snarky in my criticism of Pelosi? I was echoing what the liberal magazine author wrote about her in that comment anyway- though I personally don't see reason to give her more benefit of the doubt. It's not just one incident, but a pattern of behavior that leads to my 'tone' in discussing her.
Partisanship been driving this ship of state like a drunken sailor for as long as I've been around. If you got any ideas how to remove it, I'm more than ready. The problems we have right now should be seen as a little bigger than political points to be gained.
They should, but they won't. And trying to hold a truth commission when two sides want to claim their own sets of facts is a recipe for disaster- like squeezing a tumor and forcing metastasis of the malignant cells.
For evidence of how hard it is to rise above our biases, look at our longrunning argument in that other thread the last couple of days. I agreed to your definitions but can't agree with how you interpret them- which shows that even when two parties want to get past this stuff, sometimes the fundamental viewpoints just can't be moved closer together.
And that's with two of us who don't have our careers at stake (or aren't concerned with criminal allegations that might affect us or our colleagues) so how much worse would it be for the politicians to be involved with debating what the 'truth' really is?
[...] by Greg on April 17, 2009 Great point at TMV – are the right things being protested? Where is the outrage on the right? I can’t help but notice the radio silence from the Right on the release of the Bush OLC torture [...]
No need to hold a truth commission. The Bush torture gang conveniently wrote down everything they did so we could bask in their glorious sadism.
Start the prosecutions now.