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Thank you for the apology, it was quite civil of you.

I, too, apologize for stepping a little too close to the border of an ad hominum attack, and any rudeness in my responses.

Now, back to the discussion. I didn't say there were not limits to the First Amendment, I said you do not need prior approval to exercise those rights.

As to the violence, there are both other countries with high gun ownership levels without the gun violence we are seeing, and within our own history the levels of gun violence over the past 20 – 30 years are unprecedented. Some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation are in areas of the highest amount of gun violence.

IMHO the problem is societal in nature, not a direct function of the availability of guns. That is what we need to solve. Do that, and gun deaths will return to more 'acceptable' levels.

The 'anger' is that many of us who are gun ownership advocates feel is due to all the current attempts to use the current basic societal problems to accomplish a political goal of un-Constitutional limits on gun ownership, and are tired of being smeared all the time as a bunch of rednecks and cowboys wanting to get drunk, drive out in our pickups to the edge of town, and start a-shootin'.

BTW – I don't want to go down what 'acceptable' means – for some it is 'even one death is too many', which gets back to the 'guns don't kill people, people kill people', etc. Let's save THAT for another day's discussion.

I agree with much of what you say. I was serious when I suggested 25 years for illegal gun possession. I think licensing, if the totally anti gun group is kept at bay, is a reasonable place to start. You're also right that BS talking points on both sides is a hindrance to progress.

You have to register to vote, is that an infringement on your right?
Licensing a gun should be an acceptable thing, IF people who break the law are held truly responsible.
Currently, if you buy a gun from a dealer, you have to register. If you buy from a private party, you don't.
Wouldn't you find it ridiculous if you had to license your car if bought from a dealer, but didn't have to if you bought it from your neighbor?

You are energized, not nuts like those I'm talking about.

I apologize for the polemic, it does neither of us any good.

Agreed on the drug thing. I suggested pot as it's prohibition has the best chance of change.

2nd point. Speech – It's controlled. You can't yell “fire” in a theater. No one goes crazy for that limitation.
Press – You can't libel. another limitation.
vote – can't if you don't register or are a felon.
There's three “freedoms” have limitations and nobody is too upset by that.

I hope you've seen where I've stated repeatedly that you have the right to own guns.

I'm just saying something needs to be done. 30,000 people a year is horribly wrong.
I wrote much of above in the other thread about guns, a problem for continuity.

It's time for a solutions based discussion, not a debate. Why is that idea incite such anger?
IMO

I'm 100% with you on legalizing marijuana. That should generate a quite a bit of tax revenue, and free up a bunch of prison space. And you're exactly right about locking up folks who commit crimes using a firearm. Eliminate the parole nonsense for violent offenders.

Also, we know the NICS background check system blocks a couple hundred thousand felons from “legally” buying guns from licensed dealers. That's fine and dandy, but those felons, which are known to the government to be seeking firearms, are left free to acquire their guns through the black market. Just attempting to purchase a gun by a felon is a crime. Its time we start locking those up who do so….NOW!

I hope we're finding some common ground here.

I will not sit back, however, and watch some in goverment and the media deliberately conflate the types of guns banned by the ineffective '94 AWB(among other inaccuracies), and machine guns used by military forces. This has been a ploy of the anti-gun lobby since the late 80's when they realized trying to institute a nationwide handgun ban was a non-starter. If you don't believe me just google “Josh Sugarman” and the Violence Policy Center.

Starting gun policy debates with dishonest rhetoric is unproductive at best. The result is usually bad policy.

the 2nd ammendment gives the individual the right to protect family and property with a fire arm.it also gives all americans the right to own firearms to protect our country from ENEMIES FORIEGN AND DOMESTIC.

and mexico should put security on their border like we do .not blame us.
also no one mentions the corruption in the mexican government which is rampant as a major part of that countries problem not our second amendment.
THE ARMED CITIZEN NEXT TO YOU COULD SAVE YOUR LIFE NOT THE COP THATS 10 MINUTES AWAY.
ONCE AGAIN KILLERS WILL ALWAYS KILL A GUN A KNIFE A ROCK .

Second, if you don't want me (or others) pissed off at you, don't claim I said the opposite of what I DID say, then try to imply I was an idiot for saying the words YOU put in my mouth.

I used 'recreation drugs'. Draw the line where you are comfortable, but the point I made is valid.

And I actually do not think gun permits or licenses should be required at all. Do you need government permission to exercise your First Amendment rights?

If you wish to counter a “left wing” talking point, please remember that using the LA Times instead of the ATF may not be a primary source. And please, when I resort to name-calling, feel free to tell me that ad hominid attacks make me look like an idiot.

Is the 1500 illegal arms in one sting operation not enough to matter? What does that number need to be? If this 1500 is only sold in the US, is that OK?

As to your two suggestions, (the first anybody has provided to date)

Why not unconcealed? At least the bad guys know who to avoid (along with people like me)
The reported drop in gun deaths could also be attributed at least in part to the strenuous training and certification that goes along with licenses to carry concealed. Licenses, training, certification. Great idea.

We both know that legalizing all drugs may be a problem. How bout we start with marijuana. It certainly the gateway drug for smugglers to make enough cash to finance cocaine.

I'll add one:
How about 25 years mandatory for carrying an unlicensed gun?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2009/...

Key points:

“The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, “is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S.”

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.”

AND

“So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

– The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

– Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

– Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

– The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

– Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.”

AND

“Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered “assault rifles” that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

“These kinds of guns — the auto versions of these guns — they are not coming from El Paso,” he said. “They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S.”

Some guns, he said, “are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way — the fully auto versions — they are not smuggled in across the river.”

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.”

I CLEARLY said that guns ARE crossing the borders, but it is a border control problem, not a 'arming through US gun shows' problem.

What would I do about gun deaths? Fully legalize the right to hidden carry. Almost every single place that it has been implemented, gun deaths go down. Seems criminal are a little more wary about pulling if they think you might be packing heat.

And even more likely to significantly reduce gun deaths is to fully liberalize recreational drugs, legalize them, treat them like alcohol and tobacco, and thereby eliminate the prohibition-like criminal economy that has developed around it. Prison population would plummet, as would gang-related activities, less people, especially inner-city youths, would get caught up in the circle of criminalization of their lives and the glorification of violence, etc. I think that alone would reduce gun deaths by 50% – 66% within a few years of implimentation.

Here's your answer.

I'm not “targeting” any guns. I'm criticizing the selective blindness of those who feel that their right to own a gun is not accompanied by an equal responsibility to address the problems with the system that allows 30,000 deaths a year. And you know it.

“Black rifles, those SEMI-auto AK knock offs and AR-15's etc, are used just a fraction of crimes involving any type of rifle”

Tell that to the families of the three police officers who were gunned down by an idiot this last week. The report states that he fired over 100 shots. What animal do you hunt that requires 100 shots to kill? What army are you expecting to enter your house that requires such firepower?

So tell me, what are you willing to do to respond to this problem? If nothing, then crazy's will continue to attack the 2nd Amendment. I'm looking for a solution to a real world problem, aren't you?

EL PASO, Texas — Nearly all illegal guns seized in Mexico come from the United States, the head of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said Monday.

ATF acting director Michael Sullivan said investigators have traced 90 to 95 percent of the weapons found in Mexico to the U.S. Generally, only law-enforcement officers or military personnel can legally possess guns in Mexico.

Sullivan, speaking at the fifth annual Border Security Conference at the University of Texas at El Paso, said the weapons are being traced as part of an effort by the U.S. and Mexico to stop the illegal flow of guns south.

“In Mexico, investigators have provided some tremendous leads … to weapons trafficking organizations,” Sullivan said.

One bust came in May, when the owner of a Phoenix gun shop was arrested on charges that he knowingly sold hundreds of weapons to “straw purchasers” who funneled the weapons to violent drug cartels in Mexico.

It goes on from there, but where do you get your pro gun distortions?

I'll await your ideas.

It has already been shown, and admitted to by the LA Times, hardly a bastion of right-wing thought, that the vast majority of guns being funneled into Mexico are NOT coming from US guns shows. They are rimarily Asian black-market guns and weapons abandoned by the huge desertion rate within the Mexican military.

Now, the US borders ARE being used as a smuggling point, but the lack of border control being the problem is very different that claiming they are using our gun law's weakness to buy guns. That just isn't the case.

Black rifles, those SEMI-auto AK knock offs and AR-15's etc, are used just a fraction of crimes involving any type of rifle……and rifles of all types get used in just about 3% of all gun related crimes.

Sound policy rarely comes from emotionally-based, knee jerk reactions.

As for the Mexican cartels, do you really believe they're getting their FULLY-automatic machine guns, hand grenades, RPG's, and other military equipment from gun shows in the United States? Have you ever been to a gun show? I suppose they acquired their fleet of drug-smuggling submarines by shopping at US marinas and boat dealers.

As to the .50 cal; do your search for AK47s, you shouldn't have to look beyond this last week's news to find an example. And you know this.

And of course, you choose to ignore my point: Why aren't you just as committed to working to solve the problems associated with yur right to bear arms? Is there some reason you see no linkage between your rights under the 2nd Amendment and the 1000s of deaths that occur from the easy access to guns? Do not rights not come with associated responsibilities?