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U.S. v Barack Obama

Four score minus four years ago, a Democratic President of the United States tried to change the relationship between the government and its’ citizens. The press called Franklin Roosevelt’s plan to get Americans working during The Great Depression “The New Deal”, the Supreme Court decided these policies promoted by the President and passed by a Democratic Congress were unconstitutional.

In our current period of economic uncertainty, a Democratic President and an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress have pursued a different strategy of declaring private contracts null and void. The outrage over the bonuses paid by A.I.G. is understandable but has opened the door for the restructuring of contractual agreements by the government.

Here is the ultimate issue: If government can change private contracts, what about the contract the people have with their government? John Locke, during the English Civil War, laid out a contractual form of government that informs us that government is created by the will of the people to protect their “life, liberty and estate.” With their actions toward A.I.G., and their soon to be necessary action with General Motors, the Obama Administration will have to void the current contract between GM and the United Auto Workers. This action will allow government to impede on the “life, liberty and estate” (property and wages) of thousands of workers in the automotive industry.

More importantly, what does this shift in power mean to the delivery of services that are provided to the people by their government? The next logical step for the Obama Administration would be to change the funding formulas for both Social Security (going broke) and under-performing public schools. If the government changes these agreements, will the people have any recourse?

Over the past 5 years, civil liberties advocates were correctly concerned by the abuses of governmental power regarding the detainment at Guantanamo Bay. The Bush Administration detained several hundred foreign nationals and there was an uproar by dozens of interest groups. The Obama Administration is being empowered to change the very nature of contractual agreements between corporations and their employees that will have an impact on millions of people… and no one is raising any significant objections to this policy.

At the end of the day, the Constitution of the United States is a contract between “We, the People” and the government that we formed to protect our natural rights. Seventy six years ago, the Supreme Court stood up to a popular new President and forced him to come up with policy that would remain constitutional and get people back to work… perhaps the current incarnation of the Supreme Court will begin to demonstrate some backbone and take action that will ensure the sanctity of contracts made in good faith.

  • HemmD
    Tony

    Obama has to date dictated no action by GM, AIG, or anyone else. He merely offers the incentive of bailout financing in exchange for a set of actions that these companies must agree to. If they have other options or financing, take them. If Obama required Ford, who has not yet taken bailout funds, to "break contracts," that would be unconstitutional.

    "If government can change private contracts, what about the contract the people have with their government?"

    Again, if GM does go under, it will be bankruptcy courts that will call the tune; and that too is constitutional. You are falling down the slippery slope of Right wing paranoia. By lending bailout funds to mis-managed and failing business, Obama is protecting the American people's interests by requiring changes to how the failing business operates.

    It's a shame that someone under Bush hadn't done something similar with KBR; maybe some soldiers wouldn't have been electrocuted while taking a shower.
  • AustinRoth
    Some of us HAVE been raising concerns, only to be told 'Bush was bad, this is all Bush's fault, you didn't hate Bush, so shut up'. Or words to that effect.
  • CStanley
    Obama has to date dictated no action by GM, AIG, or anyone else. He merely offers the incentive of bailout financing in exchange for a set of actions that these companies must agree to.
    Actually that's not true at all, and that's the problem as I see it. Had these conditions been set before the companies accepted the bailout funds, it wouldn't have been so problematic.

    It's one thing to negotiate conditions of a loan beforehand, but that's not what has happened.

    And there's also the question of the power of the executive here in making these decisions, when Congress as the keeper of the purse should be providing oversight. Yet as a link I posted yesterday showed, the person appointed by Congress to oversee these funds can't even get her phone calls returned by Treasury.
  • HemmD
    AR

    Don't get side tracked. Of course you didn't hate Bush. but DON'T shut up.

    Tell me how economic persuasion by Obama is unconstitutional. How bankruptcy courts deciding the fate of contracts is unconstitutional.
    Come on, bury your bitterness like I did for Florida in the 2000 election.
  • HemmD
    CS
    "Had these conditions been set before the companies accepted the bailout funds, it wouldn't have been so problematic."

    Obama has made these requests based upon the additional funds needed by the subject companies. Besides, if no pre existing conditions were defined by the previous administration, are you seriously advocating zero transparency and no oversight? What important principle is upheld by doing that?

    It's exactly like your credit card (mine anyway.) I buy a $1000 worth of stuff at a certain interest rate. If I fail to pay on time, even if it's on a different card, my interest rate goes up across the board. If you don't like the new rules, give the money back.
  • Obama has made these requests based upon the additional funds needed by the subject companies.

    That's exactly right.

    Certainly Obama is engaging in dreaded socialism if he asks for CEOs of bankrupt companies to step down. Certainly Bush and Obama engaged in socialism when they handed over billions to failing banks.

    But this isn't the first step toward the state taking over private enterprise in the US Soviet style. It's the first step in responding to the failure of economic powerhouses. I highly doubt it's something that Bush or Obama wanted to do. Hell, it may not be the right thing to do either, but that still doesn't mean we're on the path to Marxism/Leninism/Stalinism. If that started happening, I'd join you guys in the protests.
  • HemmD
    CS

    "And there's also the question of the power of the executive here in making these decisions, when Congress as the keeper of the purse should be providing oversight."

    Tarp fund management was deeded to the executive branch when they were established. The Sec of Treasury specifically, and as his boss, to Obama's administration. Saying that Obama should not take part makes as much sense as saying Geithner's assistant shouldn't talk to these companies either.

    Sorry for all the posts. I'm trying to quit.
  • CStanley
    Besides, if no pre existing conditions were defined by the previous administration, are you seriously advocating zero transparency and no oversight?

    Uh, no, I'm just pointing out that transparency and oversight do not make it acceptable to change the rules as you go along.

    In your credit card analogy, you would have been told that this condition existed before you ran up the $1000 tab.

    I will concede that in the specific case of the pressure on GM CEO to resign, this may have been set as a precondition for getting additional loan funds, and thus fits my model of 'acceptability' more closely. However, there have been a lot of other proposals and requests for authority that definitely cross the line IMO. Some of what has been proposed even extends to companies that aren't getting federal loans or bailout money, but just are deemed 'dangerous' or 'unstable' as conditions for the feds to step in and abrogate contracts.
  • CStanley
    Tarp fund management was deeded to the executive branch when they were established.

    Which was wrong, and the decision should be subjected to judicial review.
  • DaGoat
    I'm just going by memory here, but weren't judges to be instructed to change the terms of mortgage contracts? And wasn't that to be applied to mortgage companies not receiving bailout money? To me that would be a more glaring example of unconstitutionality than the GM issue.

    I agree with other posters that when GM accepted government funds they left themselves open to abiding by the government's terms.
  • Some of what has been proposed even extends to companies that aren't getting federal loans or bailout money, but just are deemed 'dangerous' or 'unstable' as conditions for the feds to step in and abrogate contracts.

    Like what? I'm curious.

    Tarp fund management was deeded to the executive branch when they were established.

    Which was wrong, and the decision should be subjected to judicial review.

    Like I said before, the courts didn't particularly care that the Congress gave most of their war and treaty making powers to the Executive Branch. I don't like it either, but who is really going to fight this?

    And to be perfectly honest, aside from the Constitutional questions, I don't want Congress dealing with this sort of thing anyways. Let's not forget how they went nuts over the bonus scandal. Or how they've consistently rushed to *avoid* responsibility for anything. So your choice is between the technocrats in the Executive Branch or the over-reactors in Congress that want to defer to technocrats in the Executive Branch.
  • Anna
    "transparency and oversight do not make it acceptable to change the rules as you go along"

    ?????

    You are kidding, right? A chance to fix the lack of transparency & oversight from the previous loan and it shouldn't be done?! Having transparency and oversight should preclude other "rules changing as you go along".

    It seems that, for some people, Obama is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He tries to fix problems he inherited and he's "biting off more than he can chew" or "being too radical"; if he didn't try to fix those problems then the same people would be crowing "He's just like Bush". After being royally screwed for the last 8 years, I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt.

    /rant
  • jackie2
    What Anna said.
  • AustinRoth
    HemmD -

    OK, it is a simple argument. The power of Government in general, and the individual branches in particular, are bounded by the powers directly enumerated to them in the Constitution.

    There is no clause anywhere that allows the Executive Branch to dictate to private enterprise, whether they are receiving government funds or not, how to strategize and run their business operations.

    To the proposition that that is NOT happening, I say BS. He forced out the CEO of GM (no other way to characterize it). Here are some actual statements made by Obama and other officials:

    "(H)ave they consolidated enough unprofitable brands? Have they cleaned up their balance sheets or are they still saddled with so much debt that they can't make future investments? And above all, have they created a credible model for how to not only survive, but succeed in this competitive global market?" - so Obama and his team are now experts on auto brand consolidation and the auto industries required strategies?

    "I am announcing that my administration will offer GM and Chrysler a limited period of time to work with creditors, unions, and other stakeholders to fundamentally restructure"

    "It is with deep reluctance but also a clear-eyed recognition of the facts that we have determined, after a careful review, that Chrysler needs a partner to remain viable"

    From the LA Times:

    "Some participants in the (Obama administration) deliberations, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of White House restrictions on allowing people to speak freely, said the task force operated from an underlying belief that consumers would ultimately be attracted to more fuel-efficient cars despite current data showing many such cars languishing on dealer lots.

    "Philosophically they blame these companies for not having produced enough responsible small vehicles," said Dan Luria, research director at the Michigan Manufacturing Technology Center, a consulting firm for automaker suppliers. "But they don't deal with the fact that the companies would have been insolvent years earlier if they had done that." "

    So, when exactly did the President become an expert in strategic corporate management?

    Additionally, they have now offered $5B to support the auto parts supply chain, which of course will bring them under government control now, for the same reasons being used to justify the financial and auto maker takeovers.

    Add to that the fact that Obama somehow found the authority to make the U.S. government the guarantor of auto warranties (where does that money come from, as Congress has authorized any such expenditure?)

    And do not kid yourself - Healthcare is next.

    Finally, meanwhile from the House we get this new nugget: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Beyo...
  • AustinRoth
    HemmD -

    I forgot to add, I have NO issue with your bankruptcy court question. I have said all along that if there is going to be forced reorganization, that is where it HAD to happen, and that I was seeing Obama stepping into the role of the Judiciary. It is the actual potential Constitutional issue I am concerned about.
  • AustinRoth
    Chris -

    "but that still doesn't mean we're on the path to Marxism/Leninism/Stalinism. If that started happening, I'd join you guys in the protests."

    Out of interest, what in your opinion would constitute that we are heading down that path?
  • AR,
    If the government starts taking over successful/stable/viable businesses.
  • Don Quijote
    Out of interest, what in your opinion would constitute that we are heading down that path?


    If the government started arresting people on the street, threw them in jail, tortured them and then left them in there to rot.
  • AustinRoth
    DQ - you are confusing Dictatorship/Facism with Marxism/Leninism. But not with Stalinism, I will give you that.
  • HemmD
    AR

    "There is no clause anywhere that allows the Executive Branch to dictate to private enterprise, whether they are receiving government funds or not, how to strategize and run their business operations."

    There is no clause for the government to regulate air quality, highway speeds, or National holidays either. What's your point, no powers exist outside those specifically stated in the Constitution? That doesn't work. If we go by your interpretation, corporations have no standing before the constitution either.


    "He forced out the CEO of GM (no other way to characterize it)."
    You could characterize it like I did, "Obama gave stipulations for further financial support for companies accepting bailout funds. You don't like the rules, don't take the money.

    You then go on to quote Peter Wallsten of the LA Times to show Obama is trying to dictate bad economic models. Wallsten is the guy who accused Obama of being pro-Palestinian because Obama said nice things about scholar Rashid Khalidi at a going away party in Chicago. Clear, unbiased reporting here. I'm sure his interpretation of Obama and the auto industry is no less skewed.

    What Obama did say:

    "I am announcing that my administration will offer GM and Chrysler a limited period of time to work with creditors, unions, and other stakeholders to fundamentally restructure"
    As compared to immediate, destructive bankruptcy, I'd say he's doing his job to "preserve, protect and defend" the constitution. And here's how.

    Unlike the other two branches, the Pres is elected directly by the people. They are who he is responsible to and answers to. The Constitution is the contract with those people. If by saving 5 million from losing their jobs and retirement, he defends their wealth and protects their well being; he's doing his job. And he's doing it by persuasion, not dictatorial caveat.

    The re-organization he proposes is not the same as a court's forced reorganization. In that we agree, proposals hold no force of law. Bankruptcies do.
  • AustinRoth
    "There is no clause for the government to regulate air quality, highway speeds, or National holidays either."

    Actually, at least for the first two, I DO think they are violations of the Constitution's 10th Amendment via misuse of the Commerce Clause.
  • HemmD
    Ah Yes the 10th Amendment.

    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

    "or the people" - Obama is responding to the crisis on the part of the people who he serves and has promised to protect and defend.

    So Obama is fulfilling his sworn duty.

    The socialist. :)
  • AustinRoth
    Oh come on. Not even a 1L would buy THAT logic. Heck, not even Dershowitz would try it!

    :)
  • CStanley
    Anna wrote:You are kidding, right?
    No, I'm certainly not kidding.

    First of all, I see little indication that there's any real oversight going on. You may want to read up on how that process is supposed to happen, as designated in the legislation enacted by Congress (excerpt is from Kashkari's testimony before Congressional committee on Dec. 8, 2008)

    The first topic I will address is oversight of the TARP. In addition to the normal oversight provided by Congressional committees of jurisdiction, the Congress established four important avenues of oversight: one, the Financial Stability Oversight Board; two, the Special Inspector General; three, the Government Accountability Office; and four, the Congressional Oversight Panel. I will review Treasury's interaction with each body in detail.


    As Ed Morrissey has been pointing out, the conditions of the first provision listed there, the FSOB, stipulate that this board by law has to meet at least once a month. They did convene, I believe 6 times, during the fall and through early January. The board has met ZERO times since the Obama administration took over.

    And now we find out that the chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel, Elizabeth Warren, is unable to communicate with anyone in the Treasury department, therefore rendering that panel impotent.

    Taking bold public action like the pressuring of a CEO to resign strikes me as a way to put window dressing on oversight, while none of the legally proscribed oversight methods are actually functioning.

    And even if this was all going through the proper channels, you still can't justify putting conditions on the deal after the fact. I've already stated that this technically isn't the case with the GM CEO firing, because apparently Obama called for this to happen as a precondition for further funds. But you can't retroactively put conditions on a loan that's already been given.
  • CStanley
    Some of what has been proposed even extends to companies that aren't getting federal loans or bailout money, but just are deemed 'dangerous' or 'unstable' as conditions for the feds to step in and abrogate contracts.


    Like what? I'm curious.


    http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...

    Frank's committee is recommending that Treasury have the authority to 'monitor systemic risk' in the economy and intervene accordingly; this article also states that Geithner has expressed support for extending some of the exec compensation caps to companies not covered by TARP bailout funds.

    This is mostly coming from Barney Frank, which gets back to your other point about the buffoons currently in Congress. I have to agree with you there, but I also think we have to require that power be appropriately limited by putting the responsibility on the legislative branch instead of the Executive for this type of thing if it's going to be done at all. From that point, we the people have to utilize our own power of checks and balances at the voting booth.

    I'll also note that the idiocy of the bonus tax eventually withered out- it worked pretty much the way the founders intended with the House being the voice of populist anger and then the Senate acting in a more deliberate manner to put a stop to the foolishness.
  • HemmD
    Then please, demonstrate the fallacy.

    Lincoln's actions hung on such a thread, why not Obama?
  • AustinRoth
    You were serious???

    Well, first, the President does NOT promise to defend and protect 'the people'. He swears to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States". And that is actually very different. And that is what Lincoln used - that the South, by attempting to succeed, was threatening the Constitution. Please don't try and claim the current economic mess fits that description - I would hate to lose that much respect for you! ;)

    Now, you are taking me further down a path than I believe is warranted in this case, but I stand by my contention that the President, and by extension the Executive Branch, does not have the authority under the Constitution to use the power of the office to force business to comply with his idea of proper business plans, directly intervene in the absence of illegal wrong-doing to remove a CEO of a company, etc.

    Or to set national speed limit laws, but that is Congress' misdeed, not the Executive.
  • CStanley
    It's no wonder that you had a hard time getting over the 2000 election, Hemm- your last comment makes it apparent that you suffer from the delusion that the US is a democracy instead of a constitutional republic.
  • kathyedits
    The U.S. is both a constitutional republic and a democracy. It's a constitutional republic when Republicans need it to be, so that they can argue against policies that go directly to protecting the political and economic rights of the people -- as opposed to those of big business or powerful political interests . It's a democracy when Republicans need it to be, so that they can argue in favor of invading other countries to give them the same form of government that the U.S. has.
  • HemmD
    CS

    If you are looking for someone to defend Congress, good luck.

    But this is also where you and I diverge when it comes to Obama.

    You are frustrated that Congress of both stripes have failed in their duty of oversight over the past 8 and a half years. I also agree, but I'm afraid that you read Obama's intention is to institute his version of a unitary presidency by swooping in to grab power illegally. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

    I believe Obama's intention is to bring change to Washington. Congress has part and parcel been much the cause of the current economic problem. Their consistent lack of responsibility for good legislation and coddling of special interests has given us an unregulated banking system and an ill-justified war in Iraq. If they are not going to do their jobs, somebody needs to.

    The change Obama is looking for is ironic. Legislatures doing their jobs without the bias of lobbyists and government re-instigating regulations to remove fraud from the marketplace; you know, the way we were taught that government was meant to operate. Congress passes or attempts to pass bad laws all the time. Remember that Obama inferred he would veto the bonus tax.

    Obama tried to persuade GM, not dictate to it. There's nothing illegal with persuasion, and it's a darn sight better than myopic political "oversight."
  • CStanley
    I believe Obama's intention is to bring change to Washington.
    I have no idea if he's worthy of that kind of power or not, but it doesn't matter. If you'll recall, some of the founders wanted to make George Washington king because he was such a good and honorable man, but wiser minds prevailed and saw the need to limit the powers of the office and put in checks and balances.

    If he really wants to 'change the way things are done', the appropriate manner would be for him to use his considerable political capital to lean on the goons in his own party (that's not to say that the GOP isn't just as bad- I'm just saying that the Democratic majority is where Obama could have influence, and they're the ones in power right now anyway.)

    Congress has part and parcel been much the cause of the current economic problem.
    Right, but only because we allowed it to happen. It's time for people to wake up.

    If they are not going to do their jobs, somebody needs to.
    NO, NO, NO. If they are not going to do their jobs properly, they need to be tossed out.
  • HemmD
    AR

    here we go:

    The Constitution is a contract.

    The party of the first part, is We the people. Obama has sworn to protect that agreement.
    I'm not sure how the protection of the party of the first part of that agreement is different from the protection they have within the contract. If he protects the contract of people's rights, is he not protecting those people rights? 'splain it to me lucy'

    As to Lincoln, didn't he change property rights without employing Congress? That Emancipation Proclamation certainly bent the way laws are supposed to be written, didn't it?

    Lastly, tell me exactly why persuasion is the same as forcing. We have two words for a reason. They mean different things.
    If he compels through law or force, I'm with you. But until he does, I'm with Obama.
  • HemmD
    CS

    "I have no idea if he's worthy of that kind of power or not" Change is not a matter of force, it's a matter of consensus based leadership. He has to try because he sees the problem. It's his "moral imperative."

    Agreed in principle about congress, but who's got two years to wait? or four?
  • As a side note, I wished you conservative folks would have kept such a keen eye on the legality of Executive action back when we had a president spying and torturing on anyone they pleased.

    But don't worry, there is still time for you to pledge your support for prosecuting Bush and Cheney for their criminal conduct :-)
  • CStanley
    Chris: Obviously I differ with you on whether or not prosecution is the answer, and on the severity of that "spying and torturing".

    But since you mentioned the past eight years, did you do what I'm now suggesting (vote out your incumbent rep/senators if they didn't properly exercise their oversight role?)

    If not, why not?
  • AustinRoth
    HemmD -

    The Preamble states:

    “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ”

    The Preamble does not grant any particular authority to the federal government and it does not prohibit any particular authority. It establishes the fact that the federal government has no authority outside of what follows the preamble, as amended." - Wikipedia
  • HemmD
    AR

    Ok. Doesn't it also specify exactly the oath a President is to take. Doesn't that kind of show they knew exactly what they wanted the President to do in terms of the "part of the first part?" Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution

    how bout Lincoln?
  • HemmD
    AR

    The preamble demonstrates from where the authority for the following constitution comes. The People, aka, the party of the first part.
  • AustinRoth
    Um, you are losing me.

    The Preamble does not specify the Oath of Office for the Presidency, or that a President must take it, but indeed Article II, Section I, Clause 8 does. And it states, as i pointed out, that the President:

    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

    Not the People. The Constitution. So, as the South was trying to Succeed, Lincoln claimed he was defending the Constitution, because there is no provision for succession in it. There are still a lot of Constitutional scholars, though, that believe his actions exceeded his authority even under these terms. I think some did, but you cannot change the past.

    You can only worry about today. Which is what I am indeed worrying about.

    So, what was the point you were trying to make in your last reply? I have to admit it was lost on me, if I didn't address it with this reply.
  • AustinRoth
    "The preamble demonstrates from where the authority for the following constitution comes. The People, aka, the party of the first part."

    You posted this while I was making my last post.

    Sorry, it is the Preamble:

    1. an introductory statement; preface; introduction.
    2. the introductory part of a statute, deed, or the like, stating the reasons and intent of what follows.
    3. the introductory statement of the U.S. Constitution, setting forth the general principles of American government and beginning with the words, “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union

    It is not itself part of any Article of the Constitution, which are the definitions of the Authority of the Constitution, and it has no meaning or force under law. You will not find one Supreme Court ruling referencing or citing it as the Authority for a Constitutional interpretation.
  • HemmD
    AR

    I messed up with an incomplete response. No wonder I lost you.

    Contracts must draw their authority from somewhere and declare who the parties are to be considered in the following agreement.

    Consider the preamble to the Magna Carta:
    John, by the grace of God, king of England, ......

    John was king by the grace of God, and also the party of the first part.

    Our preamble describes the party of the first part first, and then from where the authority comes. In our case, authority was purely moral.

    Among other things, our amended constitution enumerates our rights. The oath is a description of the president's job.
    So it goes back to my original statement,

    I'm not sure how the protection of the party of the first part(the people) of that agreement is different from the protection they(the people) have within the contract. If he protects the contract of people's rights, is he not protecting those people rights?

    Hope that helps. It's not like I'm a constitutional lawyer, obviously.

    The Emancipation proclamation was my point about Lincoln. We don't criticize him for this illegal act, we celebrate it.
  • CStanley
    The thirteenth amendment mitigated any constitutional issue with the Emancipation proclamation though, Hemm. And I think if you actually compare the situation then with now it becomes obvious that nothing today is provoking the kind of existential crisis that was present at that time- that's the difference.

    And that's what AR is getting at by pointing out that the president swears to uphold the Constitution. He doesn't take an oath to directly serve the people's wishes. If the people wish to give powers to the president beyond that which is in the Constitution, there's a process for them to do so- amending the Constitution.

    And yeah, I know, like you said before- we don't have time for that. Well, that just means then that we shouldn't be vesting all this power in the federal government to begin with and we need to move back in the proper direction.
  • CStanley
    Wow, little did I know that George Will had written an article that makes all the points I've been attempting here, in a much more coherent fashion.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar...
  • AustinRoth
    HemmD - you can keep using inappropriate legalese-like terms, but 'we the people' in the preamble does not make 'the people' the 'party of the first part' in the sense you are tying to use it.

    Here is a good overview, which admittedly shows I did overstate somewhat the Court's lack of use of the Preamble:

    http://www.answers.com/topic/preamble-to-the-co...

    However, a key takeaway in that article DOES support the main point I have been trying to make:

    "On the other hand, courts will not interpret the Preamble to give the government powers that are not articulated elsewhere in the Constitution. United States v. Kinnebrew Motor Co., 8 F. Supp. 535 (W.D. Okla. 1934) is an example of this. In that case, the defendants were a car manufacturer and dealership indicted for a criminal violation of the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA). The Congress passed the statute in order to cope with the Great Depression, and one of its provisions purported to give to the President authority to fix "the prices at which new cars may be sold."

    Kind of relevant to what is happening now, although not yet identical.

    p.s., enjoying the give and take. But when does the name calling start? Now? HemmD you ignorant slut...

    :)
  • HemmD
    CS

    As for as the thirteenth, that came after the fact, Lincoln freed property, the 13th made them citizens.

    As far as Will is concerned.
    Sorry I don't buy it. Congress passes a budget, they don't go out and spend the money. Congress authorizes expenditures in many ways and through many people.
    "Congress said to the executive branch, in effect: "Here is $700 billion. You say you will use some of it to buy up banks' 'troubled assets.' But if you prefer to do anything else with the money -- even, say, subsidize automobile companies -- well, whatever." "

    Congress passes laws that state that the dept of defense is to spend x dollars. The budget does not specify, "buy 100 belts, three rockets, etc." The money is spent along general lines just like congress did with the Tarp funds.
    There is no difference.
  • AustinRoth
    Um, the defense budget is too specified. The only part that is not is the 'black budget', which is specified in special, closed session.
  • AustinRoth
    Hey Chris -

    On the Socialist path question, how about this little doosy:

    "The House passed the Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education Act on Monday. The bill includes language indicating young people will be forced to participate in mandatory national service programs. The bill also states that "service learning" will be a mandatory part of the youth curriculum.

    That doesn't sound much like "volunteerism" does it? The mandatory youth plan requires America's youth to participate in mandatory service youth programs.

    But that's not all.

    HR 1388 is called “Generations Invigorating Volunteerism and Education” (GIVE). Here is part of the HR 1388 bill’s wording:

    SEC. 1304. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

    Section 125 (42 U.S.C. 12575) is amended to read as follows:

    SEC. 125. PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES AND INELIGIBLE ORGANIZATIONS.

    (a) Prohibited Activities- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not engage in the following activities:

    (1) Attempting to influence legislation.

    (2) Organizing or engaging in protests, petitions, boycotts, or strikes.


    (7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of religious proselytization.

    Any thoughts on THAT one?
  • catransplant
    I'm impressed that some people read and even study the Constitution. A wonderful debate. I must confess that currently I can see both sides although Austin Roth is more correct in my view. I'll just have to wait for the other shoe to drop.

    I am concerned with the degree of the President's persuasion. Enlighten me as to when this would be an unconstitutional power grab. I am uncomfortable with the president speaking for the people. That seems to take the people's voice away. But I would grant that the president makes a contract to represent the people. I feel much more comfortable with the concept that the president upholds the Constitution. If these roles are in conflict, the sworn duty is to uphold the Constituution.
  • CStanley
    Right, Hemm- that's why I pointed out the difference between the situation then vs. now. It was an existential crisis for the union then, and that's why history has judged Lincoln to have been right in using emergency powers and getting the i's dotted and t's crossed after the fact. The same type of crisis does not exist now- the Constitution and the Union are not at risk from the economic crisis.
  • AustinRoth
    CS - I know this thread has been going on forever, but look up a couple posts to the one I directed at Chris last night. You heard about that, the cute little First Amendment restrictions they are adding to "GIVE"?

    As someone else pointed out elsewhere, there real insidiousness of this revolves around the fact that kids will AHVE to volunteer if they want certain school loans for college now, but over time, history shows that quickly ANY financial assistance to people below a certain age will require it, and the system will end up modified so that almost ALL kids need that financial assitance.

    Also, go do some primary research of your own on HR 1388 if you have not already. See what type of 'training' they must get, and what kind of 'volunteer duties' they will do. I will bet it reminds you things you hav seen described in other countries that use a different political system than we do.
  • HemmD
    If Obama signs that piece of legislation, I'll be beside you on the barricades. Remember, Obama said that the bonus tax bill appeared unconstitutional, and the move died in the Senate. The majority of the bonuses were returned however. The bad bill was snuffed out by his words and bonuses returned. No law was made or broken, but persuasion was applied. The Obama principle in a nutshell.

    I go back to my original proposition, Obama wants to bring change to Washington, both sides of the aisle require it. I've said repeatedly, I may be naive about Obama; however, he's not done much to date to make me disbelieve his stated purpose. The closest he's come so far is the wire tap laws Bush created and Obama has not disavowed. I watch that front very closely.

    AR - A great inter-change! I hoped you benefited as much as I did. A good debate is not about winning, it's about learning. Thanks man

    ps
    Don't forget your helmet.
  • HemmD
    AR
    oops
    that was meant to say "he's NOT done much to disbelieve..."
  • AustinRoth
    HemmD and CS -

    OK, that is what I get for not doing more research last night.

    First, the bill has been passed by both Houses, and now awaits Obama's signature.

    However, I went to www.govtrack.us, and read (skimmed) the final bill as passed. Sec. 1304 (Section 125) (the nasty one in question) was indeed repealed in its entirety.

    Always best to go to a primary source for accurate information.
  • HemmD
    CS and AR

    I admit, we kind of got into the tall grass on this one. :)

    Let's narrow this down to a simple question. Obama is persuading, not ordering. There is no law against persuasion.

    Just to throw a wrench into the bill you mentioned. Don't Armed forces personnel agree to similar stipulations? You can't advocate for a particular candidate while dressed in your uniform, can you? Just thought I'd add to touch of chaos....
  • HemmD
    CS

    If you want to argue if the complete collapse of our economic system is not existential, I'd defer. Not because you're right, mind you :); just because it's a value judgment.

    I would say that since the US went off the gold standard, America's well being hangs upon the economic confidence that the rest of the World holds in us. If the confidence goes, so goes trade and credit. Two pretty big criteria for judging our survivability.
  • AustinRoth
    HemmD -

    If you want to take the 'volunteerism' bill and turn it into quasi-military service, quite frankly you are getting into Hitler Youth and Brownshirts territory. (Damn, I HATE being the one to invoke Godwin's Law).

    Persuading? Ok, so, you go to your local bank for a loan to handle a credit crunch. The bank says, sorry, you are too high a risk.

    So now you go to your local loan shark, who gladly loans you money in, say, November of last year. It is now March of this year. You need yet more money. You draw up a plan to show him how you plan to replay him, and why you need additional money to get there.

    He says, 'I will draw up a new plan for you, and decide how you will earn and spend your money, what you will do for a job, and I think it is is your best interests that you do what I 'suggest'.

    Persuasion?

    Anyway, time to stop this thread, as we have both (I think) thown our best out there. Let's go find a new one to commandeer! The TMV Thread Pirates. ;)
  • HemmD
    I know that's the fear you have, but my german heritage thinks that makes a lot of sense.


    Seriously, I think the non-participation thing is to stop that very criticism. It would be decidedly at bad thing if all Obama's youth started to march in support of a plan. That, I believe was the point of the bill introduced. It was an attempt to remove volunteerism from political and religious meddling.

    Hitler youth had a political affiliation (Nazism) and a religion (Hitler). Obama's volunteerism is closer to the peace corps, only inside America. That's change I can believe in.
  • AustinRoth
    I, too, come from German heritage.

    This is just one of those that has the feel of 'the road to hell, good intentions, etc.'

    Couple that with my general cynicism towards all politicians, and a firm belief that all government programs grow and expand their power, and in doing so become more corrupt, well...

    You haven't been around this board enough to know, but I have mentioned before I am Jeffersonian in my opinion on how to keep government in check.
  • HemmD
    We're really going to have to work on that cynicism, it's bad for the soul.

    I overcame mine so don't give up hope. Remember, you have to be an optimist or this crappy world will get you down. :)
  • AustinRoth
    I actually am an optimist, very much so. I just distrust government. Those are not mutually exclusive.

    Actually, I distrust authority in general. I am 48, and still don't trust the man. He is trying to put us down!.
  • HemmD
    Funny, I found the less I trusted myself, the more I trusted others- including the man. I'm 58, and may just be experiencing my second childhood.

    Good example, I just about had a heart attack just now when I typed out my age. I know I was just 20 something not too long ago. What the heck happened? What cruel game is this?
  • CStanley
    AR, I was away from my 'puter yesterday so a belated response on the "GIVE" Act.

    I honestly don't know what to make of it at this point, but it certainly bears keeping a watchful eye on.

    The name itself is so Orwellian as to raise eyebrows. And yet, people in both parties have proposed various forms of this throughout the years, and it can be benign. I do think some of the provisions have that feeling of getting the pavers out for that road to hell...but I also think it's too soon to judge that there's any intentional foray into Brownshirt or Hitler Youth territory.

    A side note- isn't it funny how our points are climbing now that people can't ding them when they get ticked off because they're losing an argument? ;)
  • AustinRoth
    58? Thanks, now I feel better. You're old!

    HA HA HA HA!

    Everything is relative, isn't it? 48 or 58, back when we WERE in our early 20's, there was no difference to us. Anything more than, say, 32 was old. No need to cut it finer.

    Oh well, I am older now, but refuse to grow up. :)
  • AustinRoth
    CS -

    "A side note- isn't it funny how our points are climbing now that people can't ding them when they get ticked off because they're losing an argument?"

    Yeah, funny about that. Or knocked down just for having a 'wrong' opinion.
  • HemmD
    My only problem with 58 is every morning when I look in the mirror, I can see the eyes of that 20 year old looking back and saying "What the hell have you done to me?"

    When I was in my early 50s, I always said that the only thing I wanted for my birthday was dyslexia so that I could be 25 or 35 again. :)
  • CStanley
    Hemm...about that pressure thing....
    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/04/03/obama-thr...

    You don't see anything wrong with the president cheering on the angry mobs one day (and then trying to tone it down the next when it was getting out of hand) and then telling these bankers that he's the only one standing between them and the pitchforks? How is that not an abuse of his power?
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