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Bailouts, Class And Social Acrimony

This is making its way around the Internets today.

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A couple of comments. First, I can’t exactly disagree with anything he says. Well I mean I disagree with the gross generalizations as most people facing foreclosure don’t exactly live in mansions, but his overall indictment of establishment logic is something I can get behind. That said, I find the video completely surreal. It’s a populist uprising on the floor of a commodity exchange.

And then compare it with this “shrillness”:

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Not to get all Marxist or anything, but the class resentment is obvious.

The first video he talks about letting things fall apart so the “responsible” people can come in and pick up the pieces and prosper, and traders around him cheer (it should be noted this is CME, not Wall Street…it does have a bit more of a down to earth culture but still). The implication is that the country is going down the tubes because of misguided bailouts that support the “losers.” Well guess what? The vast majority of the “losers” are hard working Americans that have seen incomes stagnate for the last three decades in the best of times, and get laid off at the first sight of bad times. Much of the increased wealth — that the workers were pivotal in creating — went to the financial class.

The second video of course is railing on about that. But it’s also undeniable that a lot of the very poor decisions that led to our current crisis were made by the middle class as they overextended themselves, and that a downward shift in standard of living is inevitable. You can even make a very good argument that a lot of the middle class people that did make good decisions and anticipated the downturn (cough…) will be punished if everyone gets bailed out. It’s hard not to feel like a sucker by trying to do the right thing. So I can kind of understand the first video’s sentiment, until I sit back and realize that most of their “success” was only because an inordinate amount of the pie has been flowing upwards.

Then of course everyone is mad because the ultra-rich have on average seen the most gains and been the most irresponsible…and they are the ones that are getting made whole first. Heck they haven’t even really cut bonuses. So a lot of real complaints against that reckless behavior (i.e. the first video acting like most people getting mortgage relief had mansions, and the Lansing mayor ripping into Wall Street types in a way where the CME traders could be seen as part of that even though they’re not) inaccurately gets assigned to people that did have different roles.

It’s just a mess and is part of the reason why I think that things will get far worse than most people anticipate. Since I don’t like anyone I propose programs like I mentioned on the recent foreclosure thread by Jerry:

First, calculate the projected price declines based on historical averages and median income. Things always revert to a historical mean and things are still too expensive on average and in some areas still way too expensive.

I am for three steps in increasing order.

Owner declares Chapter 13, and there is an offer to lower principal by whatever amount to get to the projected bottom price + 15-20% or thereabouts. The owner covers one half of the difference (either as a lump sum or increased monthly payments with interest [edit: high interest here like 7-8%] until that extra amount has been covered…of course that’d mean that the monthly mortgage payment would decrease from current levels) and the banks cover the other half. Owner would maintain full control.

If the owner cannot meet those increased payments, then go ahead with foreclosure.

While in foreclosure don’t kick out the owners but instead rent out to them at a monthly rate commensurate with the expected foreclosure recovery amount. If someone buys the foreclosed property then obviously they get to decide whether to kick the owners out or keep them as renters.

The last step is the most radical, which is if they STILL can’t afford the rent at those prices, then the owners have to move out*. If the house doesn’t sell after say 6-9 months, then open up a fraud inquiry into both the buyer and originator and have the government buy the property at a 10% discount and give it to a local trust that can look for renters, have a rent to own program, whatever. *The former occupants could apply to stay in the home with government assistance like Section 8 if no other renters came forward.

Those steps would make sure that the owners, bankers and investors each bear some of the burden, that the banks have it in their best interest to have a workout agreement (with the legal backing of the bankruptcy to shove it down to investors) and that the government eventually will step in at a cutthroat rate and attempt to preserve the neighborhood. Of course everyone will be angry with my plan because it makes pretty much everyone bear some of the responsibility but also there is still a safety net.

The banks will still lose a lot of money, but the government can recapitalize them at a set rate based on the amount that they reduce their exposure through the program (say 30-50%). The government would get preferred shares for the recapitalization. If they need more of a bailout than that, then they should just be declared a failed bank and taken over by the FDIC.

My suggestion is one that I feel more evenly puts the burden on all classes, which is why no one would ever consider it and would be a template for most of the bailouts. The people that did make bad decisions (or even just had bad luck) would lose a lot, but still be able to keep their houses in their name or at the very least have housing. It would allow people that did save their money to come in and get bargains, but prevent complete fire sales. It would make the banks and investors take huge hits — maybe even causing some to fail — but wouldn’t be a complete free-fall. It wouldn’t try to save everyone, but wouldn’t mind spending a lot of resources in order to make sure that people didn’t go hungry or homeless needlessly. In short, it’d make everyone mad and see their standard of living decline, with the people that have saved the most (actual cash, not leveraged assets) and those that are lucky enough not to lose their jobs seeing the most modest declines.

  • greenschemes
    Talk about class warfare?

    Late Update: HuffPo spotted a Conyers appearance on the Bill Press show, in which the lawmaker suggests that the best forum for investigating Bush administration crimes may be the World Court or another international body. - it would be deliciously ironic to see Bush finally face the music on an international level. Still, wouldn't a domestically convened panel be the best, and most cathartic, venue for an inquiry like this?

    Ive actually begin to hear talk on campus about the republican states should leave the nation much as the south did and let the democrats figure out how to tax their own people to death instead of Republicans.

    Pelosi is talking about she cant wait to try those criminals that used to inhabit the Whtie House.

    The Democrats are fear mongering us to death. This country is a mess.
  • mikkel
    Um do the people from the Republican states not realize that they take in far more federal tax dollars than they pay out?
  • greenschemes
    Actually its their own tax mikkel. They sure arent taking in tax dollars from the slums of LA or the Bronx are they?

    Tax on the middle and upper class is moving up close to 70 percent again. Dont the democrats realize where this tax comes from? It sure doesnt come from the slums of LA or the Bronx or the projects.

    But that aside Im not advocating they leave the union. Thats sedition. I am simply pointing out that Ive actually heard discussions on this and that is the state of this nation right now.
  • DaGoat
    The guy in the first video is spot on. I was one of the stupid ones who bought a house I could afford and even accelerated payments to pay it off early because I don't like being in debt. Now my taxes are used to support irresponsible people - when I say irresponsible I am talking about the homeowners, the banks and the politicians from both sides who propagated this mess.
  • mikkel
    Sedition isn't illegal for civilians, and I don't have a problem with it (making me perhaps one of the few people comfortable with the general Federal powers at the moment that also thinks states can leave if they want).

    My point though was that Democratic states pay more to the Federal government than they get allocated in the budget and Republican states pay less. That means that the "slums of LA or the Bronx" are more than covered by California and NY from a federal perspective (now if you want to talk about state irresponsibility that's another separate issue) while the "Red" states need more federal money than they pay out. The moral of the story is that money isn't being stolen from Republican states through taxes and that is a red herring.
  • greenschemes
    Do you suppose the 12 democratic states that remained in the government of the USA could then prosper if they were not paying out to say Nebraska?
  • Tax on the middle and upper class is moving up close to 70 percent again.

    And I'm the King of Jupiter.

    But don't worry greenschemes, you're only off by a factor of two.
  • mikkel
    No, I think that the United States as a whole is the best country in the world when it comes to its resources and amalgamation of culture and that (almost) all the pieces are necessary to be as prosperous. I think taxes are just a good whipping boy...the primary reason they are increasing is because of a fundamental imbalance in the country's priorities. By that I mean monetary policy, foreign policy, corporate policy; and then the taxes are to help buy off people and stave collapse of those misguided policies. Fixating on taxes and welfare as the source of the problem instead of a symptom is misguided and people would be greatly disappointed if we started having "fiscal responsibility" all of a sudden.

    That's why I agree with some very conservative thinkers like Andrew Bacevich who have identified the root causes as needing to change regardless of political implementation.
  • greenschemes
    yeah chriss? what world do you live in?

    Tax 38.9 percent. State income tax 1-9 percent..........sales tax 7-9 percent depending upon where you live. Most Middle and upper class people own homes. Tax is roughly 5 percent of your income on your home.

    so lets add all that up.

    38+9+8+5 equals? 60 percent. Hum.

    Now your good buddy wants to raise the taxes on the wealthy. 5 percent. Sates are desperate for money. Lets raise taxes. So as you can see its closing in on 70 percent.
  • greenschemes
    Well I like that Mikkel. I for one believe that fiscal restraint and fiscal responsibility does not mean turning on the poor or abandoning social safety nets. However I also believe that our tax is becoming repressive again and these are some of the reasons that our nation is beginning to suffer once again. For example I own a home. My taxes on my home have gone up every year. Every year I get a raise. My taxes go up every year because I am making more. The sales tax in my state have gone up 3 times in the last 8 years.

    As a result in calculating my own situation my tax burden has increased in the last 8 years by about 7 percent. That does not seem like much but throw in 2.4 percent average inflation times 8 years and we can see that I have had an errosion of value by 26 percent. In that same 8 years I have averaged about 24 percent pay raise. So Im now 2 percent in the hole for an 8 year period.

    Yet the answer continues to be we need a new program for this or that. We need more money, tax, tax, tax. There comes a time when the burden is too great. Combined with 4 dollar a gallon gasoline on a nation that is mobile and the back of the camel broke.
  • greenschemes,
    Adding is a very fun way to try to reach 70% taxation, but I assure you that's not a proper way to calculate it.

    For example: Say you make $400k a year, you have a marginal tax rate of 35% (Not 38 which you claim). Since it's marginal tax rate, all of your income except for $30,000 is actually taxed at a lower percentage right down to the first $8,000 which is taxed at 10%.

    Not all of your money (or purchases) is subject to a sales tax, so the government is not going to take another 9% of your $400k right off the bat. You can deduct mortgage payments, but you do have to pay property taxes, so I'm not sure how that comes out, but they certainly aren't taking another 5% out of your $400k.

    It's a little bit complicated, but completely different from how you're just adding it up.
  • StockBoySF
    greenschemes... I don't know where you come up with "12 [D]emocratic states". I think 29 (including DC) voted for Obama...

    mikkel is right about the red/blue state federal tax disparity.

    Of the top 20 states ranked by per capita income all 20 (except for Alaska which is #14) voted Democratic. All the 20 poorest states (except Iowa at #31, Maine at #34 and New Mexico at #45) voted Republican.

    The ten states which receive MORE from the federal government than they pay in taxes are all Republican (except for New Mexico). California gets back 81 cents for every dollar we send to Uncle Sam. New Jersey only receives 62 cents for every dollar it sends to the fed. govt. and Obama's own state of Illinois receives 77 cents for every dollar it sends to the fed. govt.

    On the other hand Alaska, for example receives $1.82 for every dollar it sends to Uncle Sam (and to top it off Alaska also gives its residents thousands of dollars each year and let's not forget that Palin increased taxes on oil and gas companies which increased the size of the payments to AK's citizens... and those taxes on the oil and gas companies were passed along to the rest of us). Another red state, North Dakota receives more than double the amount of money it sends to teh fed. government... it receives $2.03 for every $1 it sends to Uncle Sam. For every $1.00 Alabama sends to Uncle Sam, Alabama receives $1.61 back.

    Another way of looking at it is that the wealthy, Democratic states take care of their own AND help the poor Republican states which do not have enough money (and generally lower state taxes) to make it on their own. So the next time you complain about your federal tax dollars and how they are spent, remember that it is the Democratic states which help pay for roads, schools, and all federally funded projects in Republican states.

    Since I live in California I'd love to be able to keep my federal tax dollars in the state. We'd be a lot better off with more money. But you know, I think it's important that America as a whole prospers and we all benefit from having a well-educated population, a good national transportation system, etc. So I'm not really complaining about my federal tax dollars going to red states. I am complaining about the Republicans who claim they want to decrease taxes and have no alternatives to pay for necessary and essential services and go on to blame the Dems for too high taxes... when it is "Democratic states" which send so much money to "Republican states"....
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Greenschemes--

    ?????????

    For example, sales tax is only paid on money spent, not earned.
  • greenschemes
    Ive actually begin to hear talk on campus about the republican states should leave the nation much as the south did and let the democrats figure out how to tax their own people to death instead of Republicans.

    Was not my idea. I only pointed this out as a part of my post to indicate how messed up this nation is quickly becoming.

    Actually its their own tax mikkel. They sure arent taking in tax dollars from the slums of LA or the Bronx are they?

    Which was actually my point that states are not taking care of themselves but are being pillaged by the federal government to pay for their whims.

    Chris how much do you think the taxes are on a 1 million dollar home? I rather suspect they are close to 20k per year which is 5 percent of a 400k salary. Additonally your right. Rich people do not pay a lot of sales tax but rather they invest their money then pay capital gains on that.......but I tried to keep it simple so that most could follow along. But your right they pay 15 percent on their investments along with their sales tax that they pay.
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Oh, by the way, the CME is full of financial professionals.

    And it is financial professionals who got us into this mess.

    When my own class resentment drives me down to my basement to sharpen the spikes on my pitchfork, I'm daydreaming about financial professionals, not people being foreclosed out of their houses. Because if they weren't going to be able to pay, a financial professional was supposed to figure that out.

    My response to the financial professional in that first video who's whining about moral hazard is to shout due diligence.
  • Slamfu
    ChrisWWW totally beat me to it. Frankly, thats how conservatives add when it comes to taxes.
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Greenschemes--

    Here is a chart showing Federal Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received by State, 1981-2005 .

    You'll be surprised at who the socialists really are.
  • casualobserver
    until I sit back and realize that most of their “success” was only because an inordinate amount of the pie has been flowing upwards.

    Nice sweeping, if somewhat obtuse, generalization there. What, more precisely, are you getting at?.......the middle class exists out of some undeserved fortuity? And let's leave out the whole ultra-rich canard........focusing on actions or results for .0000001% is a basis for national legislation?

    I agree with you that we will take a hard hit to the general standard of living to get out of this and in doing so we will have "class acrimony" of previously unseen magnitude. It will not cut though by income level....rather it will cut by reasonably capable vs. not reasonably capable.
  • mikkel
    I don't consider those CME traders to be middle class. I don't think they the types of "financial professionals" that got us in this mess either unlike George. I don't see what commodity traders have had to do with the mess. However my point was that yes those traders work hard and have a necessary role, but they have seen outsized gains over the last 30 years. If they had lifestyle as stagnant as the blue collar workers then they would probably have a different perspective.

    And the second point about the ultra rich (meaning top 0.1%) was that both the CME traders and the union workers are complaining a lot about things that they've done either directly or indirectly (i.e. create and enable situations that allowed fraud and ridiculous compensation for many worthless people, just so they could make more as well) but instead of having targeted blame. It comes across more as George's statement about financial professionals as a whole vs. "workers that need help" as a whole, which isn't accurate. Pretty much the whole class aspect is bogus because a lot of people messed up across the board.
  • pacatrue
    Thanks very much for the link in the comments, George. Very interesting in many ways. I seem to live in places that live off the public dole. Hawaii, Mississippi, Louisiana.... As always, you can imagine useful ways to break things down. I noticed Hawaii takes in far more than it pays in federal money. However, this must be in large part because this is the home of the Pacific Fleet, and indeed the military is the number one industry in the state. This is a very different sort of largesse than many other federal programs.
  • elrod
    I think both are wrong. Mayor Bernero believes that protectionism will somehow save autoworkers and bring back prosperity for blue collar workers. It won't. There is simply no way you can expect non-college educated people to make the wages today that auto workers made in the 1960s. That ship has sailed.

    As for Rick Santelli, he is completely full of it. I say this having listened to a follow-up interview tonight with Mike Barnicle where he claimed that he didn't care if neighboring house foreclosures brought down the values of his house "because his house is a home and not an investment." He is BSing in the extreme. Anybody that owns a home understands he or she has an investment on their hands. Santelli can't have it both ways and say that we are the pure free market, but there are no real consequences to foreclosures because somehow his house is not an investment.

    I also wonder if Santelli was just as outraged at the banks getting re-capitalized for their criminally outrageous decision to securitize subprime loans and build trililons of dollars in faux-wealth.

    Oh, and the CME is not the real America.

    Look, I don't have much sympathy at all for people who bought McMansions for $1,000,000 on a $70,000/year salary. Nothing infuriated me more than watching tiny townhouses in Old Town Alexandria sell for $600,000. Or watching thousands of monstrously ugly houses sprout up in exurbia just because a bunch of people with little money thought it was just fine and dandy to take out a subprime loan and drive 100 miles a day in a financed SUV to work.

    That that bubble popped is their own damn problem.

    I understand that anger and resentment and I feel it too. I earn less than $50,000 a year (total household income), own a house worth $200,000 that I financed with a fixed mortgage and a down payment of 40%. I even took a pay cut recently, as did many other people around here in East Tennessee.

    But, as much as this ticks me off, I also understand that the consequences of these poor decisions affect all of us. One day I will want to sell this home - or finance a major improvement to it. As long as national housing values plummet, that will be impossible.

    Everybody has to take a haircut here. The banks - Citi and BofA in particular - need to be nationalized so the toxic assets can be removed from the books at their real value - zero. Then they should be re-privatized as small banks. The foreclosure cycle needs to stop - especially for people who played by the rules and found themselves underwater and losing their job in this recession (something Rick Santelli can't understand). And taxpayers will have to pay for it over the long haul. I don't see any other alternative.
  • pacatrue
    I've heard the phrase "played by the rules" from tons of people over the crisis, but I have a feeling people mean completely different things by it. Elrod, did you have something in mind when you said "played by the rules"? I assume that technically everyone who had a legal mortgage played by the rules. Do people have in mind essentially fixed rate mortgages (which is what I had when I actually had a mortgage)?
  • elrod
    By "played by the rules" I mean that I bought a house that I could reasonable afford under traditional mortgage guidelines. Obviously, I don't mean this in a legal sense because the non-existent regulatory regime in the post-Reagan era means every "easy credit rip-off" is legal.
  • StockBoySF
    elrod, all I can say is, "Ditto." Especially to this, "I also wonder if Santelli was just as outraged at the banks getting re-capitalized for their criminally outrageous decision to securitize subprime loans and build trililons of dollars in faux-wealth."

    Santelli seems like an Obama hater. which is fine if you don't like him, but let's not have a double-standard where you think the real people are being ripped off by Obama but didn't see a problem when Bush, Paulson, Bernanke, et. al. wanted Congress to give them a blank check for $750bn to give to the banks as they saw fit, with no oversight. I mean Obama's stimulus is much more comprehensive and not really that much more costly than the bank bailout.

    By the way, I don't know if Santelli is for or against the bank bailout from last fall... But he did rant about government ripping off people and taxpayers paying for it.... and that was directed at Obama's stimulus.. not at the bank bailout.... which was (is) horrible and is much more of a rip off to the taxpayers since it doesn't create jobs or really give anything to anyone..... except banks.
  • greenschemes
    So you guys would rather the banks fold and then (read the fine print)they can take upwards to 15 years to pay back what they owe you?

    Initially I was against the bank bailout till I realized wed still have to pay for it in spadesx100 times over.........Bush consulted with Obama before he did anything and if I remember right Obama could not say no, yes, I dont know or maybe which got him some criticism.
  • Don Quijote
    Do you suppose the 12 democratic states that remained in the government of the USA could then prosper if they were not paying out to say Nebraska?


    The Republic of California(CA,NV), the Cascadian Federation(OR,WA), the New England Federation(ME,MA,CT,RI,VT,NH), the Mid-Atlantic Republic(NY,NJ,PA, MD,DE), would do just fine, the Great Lakes Federation (MN, WI, IL, MI, OH) would probably manage, Texas and Florida would probably turn into a couple of Banana Republics, the rest of the US, JesusLand would turn into what it really wants to be, another third world rat-hole.
  • StockBoySF
    elrod, I agree with this and just wanted to add an observation: "Mayor Bernero believes that protectionism will somehow save autoworkers and bring back prosperity for blue collar workers. It won't."

    IT's that "protectionist" mentality that got the automakers in the mess they're in. The automakers tried to tell Americans what they wanted. Various state governments also tried to regulate the auto-industry by insisting on higher fuel standards, which the auto-makers didn't want to follow. Because the foreign car makers had cars that Americans wanted (and higher fuel standards) Americans bought those cars. If the automakers had followed the states' standards (and had a product that AMerican wanted) then Detroit would be in a better position.

    I know the argument about having to build different cars for different states, but I think you just build one car that can meet all the states' requirements. For instance if one state requires 30 mpg, another state 35 mpg, a third state passive seat belts, another state requires carbon monoxide emissions of no more than 1.5%, and a fifth state that requires carbon monoxide emissions of no more than 1%... then I think you build a car that gets 35 mpg, with passive seat belts and carbon monoxide emissions of 1% or less....

    At any rate, protectionism will only allow Detroit to continue the bad habits it got itself into.... Detroit definitely needs to change and they're just a bunch of whiners because they don't have any good ideas to compete with the rest of the world.

    Too bad Steve Jobs can't take over GM, and with a lot of government cash (with every taxpayer being a shareholder) invent a clean green car that we can sell to the rest of the world. Yes I know it's a huge task, but it can be done in steps... beginning with a "cleaner" and "greener" car. He can call it the iCar. :)
  • StockBoySF
    Don Quijote: your states' breakdown- that's pretty good, thanks! Though I think you forgot VA in the Mid-Atlantic Republic.. and I'm not sure why TX is in there.... Though as far as I'm concerned both Texas and Florida can join up with Cuba and be one big banana republic.
  • elrod
    Meanwhile, a loud and mysterious boom just went off in the neighborhood. We heard it the other morning too. It might be an earthquake - yes we get seismic activity in East TN, though usually not this intense.

    For y'all living in California earthquake-land, does it ever sound like a big boom, or like somebody dropped something in the attic?
  • pacatrue
    I experienced my first earthquake on Oahu a couple years back, Elrod. For me, it was almost like a huge aircraft that filled the sky had gone overhead and its engines had shaken the whole apartment. I didn't figure out what was going on until it was just about done. Instead, I just ran around the apartment holding my son stupidly. Anyway, as I remember, our sound was long and low, not loud and sudden.
  • elrod
    I figured long and low would make sense. Or a rumble. My neighbor actually opened up his window after the first boom, and then heard the second boom reverberate off Chilhowee Mountain (the closest mountain in the Smokies to us, about 12 miles south). Everybody is out and about trying to figure what the heck it was.
  • StockBoySF
    I think of earthquakes as a rumble.... though there are different types of earthquakes so I would imagine the sounds would be different....

    Perhaps it was a sonic boom like they had in Texas a few days ago... I understand that no one still knows what that was (apparently it was not the pieces of the two satellites that recently collided).

    Maybe the end of days is upon us and we should all head to Alaska! I'll wait until the spring thaw.
  • Don Quijote
    I actually considered Virginia & North Carolina in the Mid-Atlantic Republic. I figured that Northern Virginia could easily join the Mid-Atlantic Republic, but I am not sure as to what would be left of Northern Virginia once it got taken off the Federal Tit. As for southern Virginia, you can keep it, we have enough red-necks of our own in NY & PA. North Carolina has the Research Triangle a nice island of civilization in the midst of a sea of flat-earthers & creationists, unfortunately I seriously doubt that the south could keep it going and it is geographically to far from the core of the Mid-Atlantic Republic.

    As far as Texas goes, I figure that the average Texans has to much sense to listen to the fine people of Louisiana, Mississippi or Alabama, so they will go off on their own and create their very own Banana Republic. Ditto for Florida, other possibility, the Florida Pan-Handle and the northern part of the state could join JesusLand, and the Southern part could become NORTE CUBA, either way good riddance.
  • greenschemes
    we have enough red-necks, the rest of the US, JesusLand, Though as far as I'm concerned both Texas and Florida can join up with Cuba and be
    one big banana republic.

    Reminds me very much of the poison atmosphere that circled the republic in the years leading up to the South's succession from the Union. Blinded by hate on both sides and the great Uniter has managed to continue to divide us. Not because of what he has done or not done but because he cannot control the hate that exudes from both sides towards each other

    And that folks........was the point of my post not a suggestion that the states should split up from each other.

    But go on. Cherry pick my posts.
  • Don Quijote
    Blinded by hate on both sides and the great Uniter has managed to continue to divide us.


    You spent thirty years calling us Left Coast Liberals, Eastern elitist liberals, Taxeshusetts, talking about our San Francisco Values, etc... And those were the nicer things...

    We got the point, you want our money and you want to tell us how to run our lives cause we're just a bunch immoral bastards with no ethics nor values.

    So to all of you red-staters, you can't have our money without our values, and if you don't like it, well don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
  • greenschemes
    Well Don.

    So it is Kansas or Oklahoma's fault that Liberals have no morals or values? Is that what your saying?
  • DLS
    Make no mistake. The intervention goes far beyond "stimulus" (in fact, there's little bound at all to the scope of what is going to be attempted, and what is conceived as follow-up goals). This is vote-buying and exploiting of suffering, something Rahm Emanuel was not the least bit tardy in noticing. Add to it the "progressive" nature of incrementalism that has taken Washington (personified by Obama and his "American Idol" presence) beyond what was sought and foreseen in the 1930s, and even in the 1960s. Washington is our parent now.
  • DLS
    "The Republic of California(CA,NV), the Cascadian Federation(OR,WA), the New England Federation(ME,MA,CT,RI,VT,NH), the Mid-Atlantic Republic(NY,NJ,PA, MD,DE), would do just fine, the Great Lakes Federation (MN, WI, IL, MI, OH) would probably manage, Texas and Florida would probably turn into a couple of Banana Republics, the rest of the US, JesusLand would turn into what it really wants to be, another third world rat-hole."

    You haven't visited many places, or even understood maps when looking at them, based on what you state above, Don.

    I'll run out for a sandwich and may just illustrate a real partition of the USA into separate nations when I come back to munch on it. I've been interested for ages in reform and rationalizing the states (in practice it is limited to idealism -- it won't ever happen -- but it is intriguing, more so if you, as I, have been all over the USA and other places in North America and not only read maps and literature but see things as they are).
  • DLS
    No need to write a lot, after all. Let others have their say. The Bluer stuff at the edges can secede and join Canada. Misc. comments follow.

    It's most stark in Washington and Oregon, but is also true in California: The western side of the Pacific Crest is wetter and more populous and more liberal, while the eastern side is another state (and state of mind) altogether. The West Coast states should really be divided at the Pacific Crest (including, ideally, the Peninsular Range south of the Transverse Ranges).

    California could be divided into two, three, or four states north to south, plus shearing away the land east of the Sierra crest.

    A true Cascadian zone would include western Washington and Oregon and extend along the Cascade Range into northwesternmost California, on the coast as far as Cape Mendocino. A cruder extension would take the Cascadian territory down the coast beyond Fort Ross to the Golden Gate (a strait), and inland include the Sacramento River watershed.

    Nevada is not an adjunct of California any more than the other neighboring states and even Utah and Salt Lake are. People have left California for locations throughout the West, not limited to Nevada.

    Virginia is in the South[east] culturally, historically, and politically (though the DC zone has changed) but would lie in the Northeastern zone if we wanted a natural boundary (and the VA-NC boundary would be changed so the Chesapeake Bay watershed were entirely in the Northeastern zone). This would also assure the entire Delmarva Peninsula was in the Northeastern zone.

    New England is sclerotic as well as nobably more blue than mainstream and probably couldn't exist on its own. Include it in the Northeast. Besides, this then makes the entire Northeast equivalent approximately to California, so it is viable as an on-going concern (even if it were to join Canada).

    The Great Lakes area you present makes some sense but is not limited to the Great Lakes, but extends all the way to the boundary between the East and the West (Red River Valley, somewhat east of the humid-arid boundary). They might or might not manage, but might do better if they joined Canada and combined with Ontario and Manitoba.

    Both Texas and Florida are fit for partition, while Texas-haters probably view Texas as seeking to regain New Mexico and the "stovepipe."

    [example]

    http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-3...


    A simple, radical thing is just to take the extent of ice-age glaciation and surrogate, suitable substitutes (the Ohio and Missouri rivers on either side of the Mississippi in the east central part of the country, is the best example) and have the north side be Blue and secede from the Red side to the south. On the West Coast, use the Transverse Ranges or the "border" I use that is a river within the Transverse Ranges, the Santa Maria-Cuyama River watercourse.

    http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-162-00/
  • DLS
    "So to all of you red-staters, you can't have our money without our values, and if you don't like it, well don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out."

    Rather than redraw a bunch of map details I backed away, and I'll just say that the thing to do here is for _you_ to secede, and likely to join Canada since you'd be positioned, literally, to do that.

    If you claim there's no explicit provision in the Constitution to address secession, then you have a similar problem with explusion. (Repeal of admission legislation may not be bulletproof.)
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