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	<title>Comments on: The 2nd Amendment and the Revenge of the Incorporation Doctrine</title>
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		<title>By: Gun Control - Page 6 - My Les Paul Forums</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-186814</link>
		<dc:creator>Gun Control - Page 6 - My Les Paul Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] 9th circuit says the 2A is incorporated and applied to the states.    Yes and, unfortunately, no.  The 2nd Amendment and the Revenge of the Incorporation Doctrine &#124; The Moderate Voice     __________________ We like to assert this: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 9th circuit says the 2A is incorporated and applied to the states.    Yes and, unfortunately, no.  The 2nd Amendment and the Revenge of the Incorporation Doctrine | The Moderate Voice     __________________ We like to assert this: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend [...]</p>
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		<title>By: robscottw</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172542</link>
		<dc:creator>robscottw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The problem with this analysis is that the SC has not re-visited the incorporation question as regards the 2A.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Virtually all the other RIGHTS in the BofR have been incorporated subsequent to the 1878 decision in Cruishank which noted that neither the 1st or 2nd Amendments &quot;created&quot; those rights, but &quot;protected&quot; previously existing rights, and that the effect of the BofR was to restrain the Federal gov&#039;t from infringing those rights.   The SC said individuals must look to their own states for protection of those rights.  Cruishank of course involved the prosecution of WHITE klan &quot;night-riders&quot; who dis-armed and killed free blacks in the post Civil-war South.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Judge Thomas in a previous decision, and  Scalia in Heller, both signaled that such a review would meet a receptive audience on the court.  And there would be no reason NOT to over-turn &quot;precedent&quot;.  The court over-turned &quot;seperate but equal&quot;, and the SC has stated that over-ruling previous &quot;bad&quot; precedent is the right thing to do.  Please note that in Griswold (a post ROE case involving abortion) the court implicity included the right to keep and bear arms in their list of rights guaranteed to the &quot;people&quot;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is no way an anti-incorpation decision can pass the LAUGH test.  If this or another case gets to the SC and they attempt to wriggle out of incorporting the 2A it wil generate a REAL firestorm.  ALL the evidence points to the FUNDAMENTAL nature of the individual right to arms protected by the 2A, even before the 14A.  And the 14th was enacted in order to make possible for blacks to defend themselves in the now free South.    &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Gun rights are on the march.  People in opposition better think about getting out of the way unless they want to reap some un-intended consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with this analysis is that the SC has not re-visited the incorporation question as regards the 2A.</p>
<p>Virtually all the other RIGHTS in the BofR have been incorporated subsequent to the 1878 decision in Cruishank which noted that neither the 1st or 2nd Amendments &#8220;created&#8221; those rights, but &#8220;protected&#8221; previously existing rights, and that the effect of the BofR was to restrain the Federal gov&#39;t from infringing those rights.   The SC said individuals must look to their own states for protection of those rights.  Cruishank of course involved the prosecution of WHITE klan &#8220;night-riders&#8221; who dis-armed and killed free blacks in the post Civil-war South.</p>
<p>Judge Thomas in a previous decision, and  Scalia in Heller, both signaled that such a review would meet a receptive audience on the court.  And there would be no reason NOT to over-turn &#8220;precedent&#8221;.  The court over-turned &#8220;seperate but equal&#8221;, and the SC has stated that over-ruling previous &#8220;bad&#8221; precedent is the right thing to do.  Please note that in Griswold (a post ROE case involving abortion) the court implicity included the right to keep and bear arms in their list of rights guaranteed to the &#8220;people&#8221;.</p>
<p>There is no way an anti-incorpation decision can pass the LAUGH test.  If this or another case gets to the SC and they attempt to wriggle out of incorporting the 2A it wil generate a REAL firestorm.  ALL the evidence points to the FUNDAMENTAL nature of the individual right to arms protected by the 2A, even before the 14A.  And the 14th was enacted in order to make possible for blacks to defend themselves in the now free South.    </p>
<p>Gun rights are on the march.  People in opposition better think about getting out of the way unless they want to reap some un-intended consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: PJBFan</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172480</link>
		<dc:creator>PJBFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>After reading your comments, Jazz, and Tim, the incorporation doctrine has expanded several times in the not too distant past, the last case being &lt;i&gt;Boy Scouts of America v. Dale&lt;/i&gt; which incorporated, though not explicitly, the right to expressive association.  It is possible that the Second Amendment could be incorporated, although it would take what is required to overcome Stare Decisis.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Tim, as to your comments about some rights in the Constitution applying &quot;to some states and not to others.&quot;  That is a mischaracterisation of the issue.  The rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights are guaranteed at the federal level only, unless incorporated pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment.  Unless a constitutional amendment is specifically directed at the states, it does not apply to them, unless it is incorporated.  Thus, prior to the incorporation of the respective parts of the First Amendment did not apply when state governments restricted speech, only the federal government could be stopped from restricting speech.  The rights guaranteed in the Federal Constitution are federal in nature, only, unless they are made applicable to the states.  As to the comparison with the Nineteenth Amendment, it is inapt.  Because the federal constitution regulates the qualifications to vote, in regards to voting age, and gender, the Nineteent Amendment, without needing to so state, applied to the states because of the nature of the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading your comments, Jazz, and Tim, the incorporation doctrine has expanded several times in the not too distant past, the last case being <i>Boy Scouts of America v. Dale</i> which incorporated, though not explicitly, the right to expressive association.  It is possible that the Second Amendment could be incorporated, although it would take what is required to overcome Stare Decisis.  </p>
<p>Tim, as to your comments about some rights in the Constitution applying &#8220;to some states and not to others.&#8221;  That is a mischaracterisation of the issue.  The rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights are guaranteed at the federal level only, unless incorporated pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment.  Unless a constitutional amendment is specifically directed at the states, it does not apply to them, unless it is incorporated.  Thus, prior to the incorporation of the respective parts of the First Amendment did not apply when state governments restricted speech, only the federal government could be stopped from restricting speech.  The rights guaranteed in the Federal Constitution are federal in nature, only, unless they are made applicable to the states.  As to the comparison with the Nineteenth Amendment, it is inapt.  Because the federal constitution regulates the qualifications to vote, in regards to voting age, and gender, the Nineteent Amendment, without needing to so state, applied to the states because of the nature of the text.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazz</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172394</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tim, you&#039;re preaching to the choir. Note that noplace in the article did I say I agree with. I&#039;m just giving you the background. How Justice Black&#039;s court settled on their list of rights which are &quot;fundamental&quot; and which are not is a bit of a mystery to me, though they did publish separate writings later on the subject.  But for the time being, should this case go to SCOTUS, the opposition will cite more then 3 dozen cases dating back to the late 1800&#039;s up through the end of the 20th century where the justices have agreed on this matter.  Why? Again, I have no idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, you&#39;re preaching to the choir. Note that noplace in the article did I say I agree with. I&#39;m just giving you the background. How Justice Black&#39;s court settled on their list of rights which are &#8220;fundamental&#8221; and which are not is a bit of a mystery to me, though they did publish separate writings later on the subject.  But for the time being, should this case go to SCOTUS, the opposition will cite more then 3 dozen cases dating back to the late 1800&#39;s up through the end of the 20th century where the justices have agreed on this matter.  Why? Again, I have no idea.</p>
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		<title>By: timr</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172391</link>
		<dc:creator>timr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jazz, if this is the case, then how could the the amendment that allowed women the vote apply to every one? how could the SCOTUS ruling way back in the 50s about movie censorship and how movies came under the freedom of the press apply to all states? How could the congress rule on restricting guns apply to all the states, yet the opposite not apply? How can you apply some ammendments to everyone yet exclude others? The NRA is sheparding several cases thru several different states, it will be interesting to see how this SCOTUS decides these cases. What other amendments do not apply to everyone? Freedom of the press? How about freedom to assemble? Women voting? Do any others fall uner this? Howcome the SCOTUS can force the freedom of religion-over state sponsorship-on the states? How about Brown v BoE? If gun laws in the states trump the federal system then how could congress impose the gun laws that they did which were effective over all the states? I&lt;br&gt; really can not wrap my mind around this concept that some amendments can be enforced on states no matter what they think, while others-esp portions the Bill of Rights(taught in all schools that these rights apply to everyone)do not.&lt;br&gt;                                                                                      Timr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jazz, if this is the case, then how could the the amendment that allowed women the vote apply to every one? how could the SCOTUS ruling way back in the 50s about movie censorship and how movies came under the freedom of the press apply to all states? How could the congress rule on restricting guns apply to all the states, yet the opposite not apply? How can you apply some ammendments to everyone yet exclude others? The NRA is sheparding several cases thru several different states, it will be interesting to see how this SCOTUS decides these cases. What other amendments do not apply to everyone? Freedom of the press? How about freedom to assemble? Women voting? Do any others fall uner this? Howcome the SCOTUS can force the freedom of religion-over state sponsorship-on the states? How about Brown v BoE? If gun laws in the states trump the federal system then how could congress impose the gun laws that they did which were effective over all the states? I<br /> really can not wrap my mind around this concept that some amendments can be enforced on states no matter what they think, while others-esp portions the Bill of Rights(taught in all schools that these rights apply to everyone)do not.<br />                                                                                      Timr</p>
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		<title>By: timr</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172382</link>
		<dc:creator>timr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>After rereading your post for the 4th time I think that this comment might be of interest. When the US congress imposed restrictions on handgun magazine capacity and outlawed long guns based not on what they could do-ie semi or fully automatic-but on whether or not they looked like MBRs-Main Battle Rifles-this law applied to everyone in the US and in fact overrode state laws.-That congress, if I am not mistaken, used the 2nd amendment as a basis for that ruling. So again, why should some amendments to the constitution-like women being able to vote-apply to every state, and override state law, yet others-what other amendments other than the 2nd has this ever been applied to?-do not.-Re the Surpreme Court ruling on movies being included in the &quot;Freedom of the Press&quot; amendment, which overrode all state laws that censored movies-of course battles raged for many years on this subject, but I do not believe that it was ever postulated that Freedom of the Press did not apply in every state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After rereading your post for the 4th time I think that this comment might be of interest. When the US congress imposed restrictions on handgun magazine capacity and outlawed long guns based not on what they could do-ie semi or fully automatic-but on whether or not they looked like MBRs-Main Battle Rifles-this law applied to everyone in the US and in fact overrode state laws.-That congress, if I am not mistaken, used the 2nd amendment as a basis for that ruling. So again, why should some amendments to the constitution-like women being able to vote-apply to every state, and override state law, yet others-what other amendments other than the 2nd has this ever been applied to?-do not.-Re the Surpreme Court ruling on movies being included in the &#8220;Freedom of the Press&#8221; amendment, which overrode all state laws that censored movies-of course battles raged for many years on this subject, but I do not believe that it was ever postulated that Freedom of the Press did not apply in every state.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazz</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172381</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You see, Tim, this isn&#039;t a case of asking SCOTUS to rule on the 2nd amendment or gun / weapons rights in general. If they even agreed to hear the case, they would be asked to overturn more than 100 years of precedent in defining which of our rights are &quot;fundamental&quot; in nature such that the Federal mandate overrides the rights of the individual states. In order to overturn this one, the list of &quot;Incorporated&quot; rights would have to be expanded to include the 2nd amendment.  I&#039;m not saying they wouldn&#039;t or couldn&#039;t, but it would be a remarkable change in direction and very much against the old, states&#039; rights mantra.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You see, Tim, this isn&#39;t a case of asking SCOTUS to rule on the 2nd amendment or gun / weapons rights in general. If they even agreed to hear the case, they would be asked to overturn more than 100 years of precedent in defining which of our rights are &#8220;fundamental&#8221; in nature such that the Federal mandate overrides the rights of the individual states. In order to overturn this one, the list of &#8220;Incorporated&#8221; rights would have to be expanded to include the 2nd amendment.  I&#39;m not saying they wouldn&#39;t or couldn&#39;t, but it would be a remarkable change in direction and very much against the old, states&#39; rights mantra.</p>
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		<title>By: timr</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172380</link>
		<dc:creator>timr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I get the feeling that all these court cases cited were from what one might call &quot;liberal&quot; courts. Also, times change as do attitudes, so the current court might just believe the opposite. Again, why do some of the Bill of Rights apply to everyone, yet others-that might make govt uncomfotable for example-do not. It will be interesting to see if the NRA lawyers who are going with cases from all over the country are right, or if you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get the feeling that all these court cases cited were from what one might call &#8220;liberal&#8221; courts. Also, times change as do attitudes, so the current court might just believe the opposite. Again, why do some of the Bill of Rights apply to everyone, yet others-that might make govt uncomfotable for example-do not. It will be interesting to see if the NRA lawyers who are going with cases from all over the country are right, or if you are.</p>
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		<title>By: timr</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/26382/the-2nd-amendment-and-the-revenge-of-the-incorporation-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-172379</link>
		<dc:creator>timr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why would some of the bill of rights apply to everyone, but not others?This makes no sense to me. This case is going to go to the SCOTUS and since they ruled on the 2nd amendment there are a great many gun rights cases winding thru the courts. The current SCOTUS has already made rulings that have overturned precedent so I would not be so sure that they will rule the way you believe they will. 5 conservatives who believe in the 2nd amendment, plus the NRA spending millions on various court cases in the belief that what has already been ruled also covers their cases says that you are wrong. Also, SCOTUS  never ruled against the govt right to control firearms before the current court did, so how does that ruling effect your premise?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would some of the bill of rights apply to everyone, but not others?This makes no sense to me. This case is going to go to the SCOTUS and since they ruled on the 2nd amendment there are a great many gun rights cases winding thru the courts. The current SCOTUS has already made rulings that have overturned precedent so I would not be so sure that they will rule the way you believe they will. 5 conservatives who believe in the 2nd amendment, plus the NRA spending millions on various court cases in the belief that what has already been ruled also covers their cases says that you are wrong. Also, SCOTUS  never ruled against the govt right to control firearms before the current court did, so how does that ruling effect your premise?</p>
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