But perhaps I can just say that I think that viewpoint is so perverted and wrong I wonder if he had a party celebrating 9/11.

No, I didn't have a party, but I did observe that the Chickens had come home to roost.

. BTW, you have not shown one bit of evidence besides your opinions that in fact U.S. policy opposes a two state solution. As I said before, prove it.

Roughly $3 Billion in Military Aid, no strings attached!!!

Imagine what would happen if we attached condition to the aid or just took it away. How long do you think it would take for the Israelis to start cutting deals with the Palestinians if they lost US support? 3 years? 5 years? less?

I don't judge policies by what their supposed goals are, but by what they accomplish and from what I can see at the present time Israeli policy is to take over all of Palestine and US policy is to back them to the hilt.

Thanks for setting me straight,
Palestinian: Bad
Fatah: Double Bad
Hamas: Double Double plus Bad
Israel : Good
Jews: Double Good
Israeli Jews: Double Double plus Good

I think I got it!

You went way past snark and into your inner bigotry on that one. And if Joe or anyone wants to say I shouldn't say that about you they should have you offer up something resembling a rational argument.

None the less that is US policy.

So as I understand your position, the state of Israel must be wiped from the map and if they don't like it there is no limit to what can and should be done to them. Is that the basic tenet you hold to? It seems to be. Is that accurate? A yes or no instead of refusing to answer directly by throwing up new accusations against the evil Israelis/Jews would be appreciated.

No, You do not understand my position.

let me use a few concise statements to describe my position:
a) Israel wants all of Palestine and will do whatever it takes to get it.
b) Palestinians are entitled to defend themselves.
c) The Demographics are not going Israel's way and in the long run Israel will stop being a viable state, no matter what Hamas or Fatah does.

But you also missed that the goal of your heroes of Israel isn't a two state solution but the complete take over of all of Palestine. So far as I can tell from your rants you seem to think that's a good idea.

Show me where I said or even implied that. Oh, you can't. Because I didn't. Ever.

Jews: Double Good
Israeli Jews: Double Double plus Good

And when I go to that site you link to to prove your argument about the inherent evil of Israel I find this:

1948: LEST WE FORGET aim:

1. To expose the lies which have, for too long, been presented and accepted as the true scenario of how Israel came to be in 1948. Consequently, to raise awareness of world public opinion of the tragic events that befell and continue to engulf the Palestinian people as a result of the Zionist lies. We aim to salvage a piece of history which has been erased and forgotten.

2. To call for the Right of Return of all Palestinian refugees to their homes in all of historic Palestine to be re-affirmed and asserted under International Law and in accordance with all relevant United Nations Resolutions. This Right is non-negotiable and must also apply to Palestinians who are not UNRWA registered refugees, should they choose to return.

So as I understand your position, the state of Israel must be wiped from the map and if they don't like it there is no limit to what can and should be done to them. Is that the basic tenet you hold to? It seems to be. So IMO, your posts seem to be the ragings of a dedicated anti-semite who has absolutely no interest in peace in the region if it involves Israel continuing to exist. Is that accurate? A yes or no instead of refusing to answer directly by throwing up new accusations against the evil Jews would be appreciated.

Once again, prove it. Show us some positive proof that the Israelis could stand up to international pressure and not become a pariah state if the Palestinians actually turned away from terrorism and stayed on the path of peaceful resistance and kept some resolve on the issue.

PBS – Road to the Road Map

Since the 1993 Declaration of Principles, which resulted from the Oslo peace process, there have been several handovers of land to differing degrees of Palestinian civil and security control. The Oslo Peace Accords anticipated the halting of settlement building and the growing removal of settlements. Instead, during the intervening years the number settlers on the West Bank has doubled from about 100,000 to 200,000.

While you are sitting in good faith at the negotiating table, you don't double the number of Settlements on Occupied Territories. I am still waiting to hear the outrage from Americans or to see any negative consequences for the Israelis for behaving with such bad faith.

Where is your recognition that it was the Arabs who started the wars that led to land being lost? Somehow I missed that.

Plan Dalet and The NAKBA

On 10 March 1948, two months before the so-called Declaration of Independence, the Zionist leadership gathered in Tel Aviv and agreed on Plan Dalet calling for a military campaign against the Palestinians. Over 13 military underground operations were carried out (according to The History of the Palmach archives released in full in 1972) before the Arab forces entered the areas allotted by the UN to the Palestinians in their Partition Plan. Both Menachem Begin and David Ben-Gurion wrote extensively about their underground military campaigns to cleanse Palestinian villages of their indigenous inhabitants.

All this was taking place BEFORE Israel existed! The claim that Arab forces invaded Israel is hog-wash. When the Zionist leaders established Israel on 15 May 1948, they purposefully avoided declaring its boundaries in order to open the doors for future expansion, as has been happening since then.

At the end of the implementation of Plan Dalet, the Haganah set up “The Committee for Abandoned Arab Property” – The CFAAP – which was entrusted with the disposal of all Arab possessions into Yishuv hands. The intention was to obliterate any sign of ‘life’ in the abandoned Palestinian homes and villages.

By June 1948, approximately 370,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes. By the end of that year the number totalled 780,000. Josef Weitz declared, at a cabinet meeting chaired by Ben-Gurion on 18 August 1948, that 286 villages had been cleared or evacuated and about 3 million dunums had been left behind by their Palestinian owners as they fled the Zionist terror. The last of the villages to be cleared was Al-Majdal (later renamed Ashkelon by Israel).

Within 6 months, Zionist terrorist organizations went on a rampage expelling and murdering Palestinians and destroying their homes and villages. They expelled 452,780 Palestinians men, women and children from the areas allocated to the Jews in the Partition Plan, and a further 347,220 were uprooted from areas beyond the allocated boundaries. All in all, a total of 800,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes, 530 of their villages destroyed and 11 of their urban neighbourhoods were emptied. Massacres, like that at Deir Yaseen, spread fear and terror in the hearts of Palestinian families and forced them to take flight.

Yes, the evil Jews of Israel are the only ones at fault and the Palestinians can do no wrong according to what you write. You're just as wrong as any apologists who think that the settlements are a good thing and that the West Bank shouldn't be allowed to become a true home for the Palestinians.

Thanks for setting me straight,
Palestinian: Bad
Fatah: Double Bad
Hamas: Double Double plus Bad
Israel : Good
Jews: Double Good
Israeli Jews: Double Double plus Good

Yes, the settlements should be wiped from the map and the Palestinians given a decent amount of contiguous territory to form a state of their own.

What's to stop the Double Double plus Good people from removing their settlements? Peace Now: West Bank settlement construction nearly doubled this year

More than 2,600 housing units are under construction in West Bank settlements, including units in more than 1,000 new buildings, Peace Now contends in its semi-annual report.

Basing its conclusions on aerial photographs and field visits, the organization says that slightly more than half of the new structures are going up east of the separation fence, and in several places construction is encroaching on the boundaries of Palestinian towns, such as Ramallah and Bethlehem.

National Bureau of Statistics data shows that construction in settlements jumped from 240 housing units between January and May 2007 to 433 housing units during the same period this year. Housing and Construction Ministry projects account for 64 percent of all building starts cataloged.
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Peace Now reports an increase of 550 percent in the number of tenders for construction in the settlements: 417 housing units compared to just 65 in 2007; 125 new buildings at outposts, including 30 permanent structures.

The report also addresses construction over the Green Line within Jerusalem's municipal boundaries, an area in which 200,000 Jews now live. East Jerusalem saw an increase in tenders for construction of housing units to 46 this year, from 38 during January-May 2007.

But you also missed that the goal of your heroes of Hamas isn't a two state solution but continued terrorism as long as Israel exists. So far as I can tell from your rants you seem to think that's a good idea.

But you also missed that the goal of your heroes of Israel isn't a two state solution but the complete take over of all of Palestine. So far as I can tell from your rants you seem to think that's a good idea.

Blowing up buses, restaurants, hotels and markets full of civilians and tourists in attacks targeted specifically at civilians is terrorism, plain and simple.

As opposed to dropping 500lbs bombs from aircrafts on the head of defenseless civilians.

I'm sorry but I couldn't let this one pass.

Is it any surprise that they do whatever they can (what we call terrorism) to fight back?

Sorry, but it is terrorism. Don't give me that “what we call terrorism” crap. Blowing up buses, restaurants, hotels and markets full of civilians and tourists in attacks targeted specifically at civilians is terrorism, plain and simple. There is no equivocation that is acceptable on this. There is no “Oh, it's just what we call it because we don't understand.”. That kind of excuse is just pure crap. It's wrong no matter who does it for what cause.

OTOH if the the Palestinians are good little boys and girls and don't fight back, the little land they have will be stolen from them, they will live under occupation and be non-persons in the land in which their ancestors have lived for hundred of years, if they fight back with whatever weapons they can get their hands on the little land they have will be stolen from them, they will live under occupation and be non-persons in the land in which their ancestors have lived for hundred of years. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Once again, prove it. Show us some positive proof that the Israelis could stand up to international pressure and not become a pariah state if the Palestinians actually turned away from terrorism and stayed on the path of peaceful resistance and kept some resolve on the issue. Where is your recognition that it was the Arabs who started the wars that led to land being lost? Somehow I missed that. Yes, the evil Jews of Israel are the only ones at fault and the Palestinians can do no wrong according to what you write. You're just as wrong as any apologists who think that the settlements are a good thing and that the West Bank shouldn't be allowed to become a true home for the Palestinians.

Under those conditions is it any great surprise that Palestinians have become radicalized? Is it any surprise that they do whatever they can (what we call terrorism) to fight back? It may be counterproductive, it may be immoral, but it's not difficult to understand why it's happening.

Michael is right that intentions matter, but so do capabilities. The Palestinians are incapable of fighting a war with the Israelis on their terms, with soldiers, tanks and guided missiles. They don't have military bases (living in them would be suicide). What they do have is highly ineffective rockets, and people willing to strap bombs to themselves, and children throwing rocks.

Again, what they're doing is violent, and it's wrong, but what do you expect when both their own past leaders and Israeli leaders have done nothing but exacerbate a 60 year occupation? The peace process has given them nothing, and so they lash out rather than simply dying with a whimper. Don't pretend like you would do anything different if you were in their situation.

The way forward is clear, neither Israeli bombs or Hamas's rockets will create peace. But America and Israel can. They can immediately end the blockade of Gaza, they can begin dismantling the illegal outposts across the 1967 green line, and they can let the Palestinians govern themselves and become a country.

you forgot to mention that the cluster bomb were fired into areas near Israel were civilian populations are thin (compared to other areas in Lebanon with much greater population densities were if they just wanted civilian casualties they could do better) but raiding parties often travel to enter Israel.

You forgot to mention the reason why the population is thinner in that part of Lebanon than in others. Might the 1982 invasion and occupation of Lebanon have anything to do with it?

<shrugs shoulders>
As far as Israeli supporters in the US goes, Israel can do no wrong, despite 40 years of illegal occupation, land theft, massacres, and various violation of human rights and it's the fault of those dirty filthy disgusting Palestinians.

OTOH if the the Palestinians are good little boys and girls and don't fight back, the little land they have will be stolen from them, they will live under occupation and be non-persons in the land in which their ancestors have lived for hundred of years, if they fight back with whatever weapons they can get their hands on the little land they have will be stolen from them, they will live under occupation and be non-persons in the land in which their ancestors have lived for hundred of years. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The irony here is that short of the Israeli going out and committing genocide and killing the four to five million Palestinians living in Greater Israel (Israel, West Bank & Gaza) Israel will not exist as a Jewish 50 years from now. Demographics are a bitch.

“The attack targeted a leading member of the militant group Hamas, Sheikh Salah Shahada, who was among those killed when an F-16 jet dropped a one-tonne guided bomb on the apartment block where he was staying. “

Good example. If they would that bomb in an isolated structure then it is legal and well within international norm to use it if he is hiding in civilian areas. If not them everyone would of course just hide in civilian areas. It's inconceivable that you can give anyone that kind of get out of everything free card. That Israel has a responsibility to care more about civilians in Palestine than Hamas, the govt of Palestine, is absurd. I understand why, I even have sympathy for the Palestinian situation, but get real.

I notice that none of those defending Hamas so vociferously care to address the fact that Hamas uses civilians as a shield on purpose. They also will probably not admit that Hamas had to know that continuing those missile launches would result in the Israeli government having to strike back. They purposefully provoked an attack that had to kill civilians. Are you really seriously suggesting that the Israeli government do absolutely nothing while missiles are fired on their citizens? And before you bother saying it…it doesn't matter how inaccurate the Kassam missiles are. Consider this article with some more recent information. The Kassam rocket is not the only weapon Hamas has. They also have missiles made in Iran and China. Since Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005 there have been 6300 rockets and mortar rounds fired from there into Israel. How would you like to live under that threat.

The attack targeted a leading member of the militant group Hamas, Sheikh Salah Shahada, who was among those killed when an F-16 jet dropped a one-tonne guided bomb on the apartment block where he was staying.

Obviously the action of a country that is really going out of it's way not to kill innocent bystanders.

Israelis do not want to kill innocent yet may do so accidentally, Hamas purposefully and willfully kills and gets civilians willfully and purposefully killed.

Horse Shit!!!

The Israelis don't give a f*ck, if they did they wouldn't use Cluster Bombs after they know they have lost the battle.

Haaretz – IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

“What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs,” the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

MLRS is a track or tire carried mobile rocket launching platform, capable of firing a very high volume of mostly unguided munitions. The basic rocket fired by the platform is unguided and imprecise, with a range of about 32 kilometers. The rockets are designed to burst into sub-munitions at a planned altitude in order to blanket enemy army and personnel on the ground with smaller explosive rounds.

The use of such weaponry is controversial mainly due to its inaccuracy and ability to wreak great havoc against indeterminate targets over large areas of territory, with a margin of error of as much as 1,200 meters from the intended target to the area hit.

The cluster rounds which don't detonate on impact, believed by the United Nations to be around 40% of those fired by the IDF in Lebanon, remain on the ground as unexploded munitions, effectively littering the landscape with thousands of land mines which will continue to claim victims long after the war has ended.

Because of their high level of failure to detonate, it is believed that there are around 500,000 unexploded munitions on the ground in Lebanon. To date 12 Lebanese civilians have been killed by these mines since the end of the war.

Cluster bombs: a war's perilous aftermath

The Zayoun family alone accounts for three of a postwar Lebanese toll that today stands at 184 wounded and 30 dead.

Father Mohammed blames himself for picking up the small metal cylinder and putting it in his bag while cutting thyme in a field that had been marked with red and white warning tape.

Just after nightfall, with the house lit only by a few candles, his 4-year-old daughter Aya Zayoun found the cluster bomb in her father's bag outside. She took it inside to the living room and handed it to her older sister, Rasha, who thought it was a toy bell.

…
Still, the UN says that nearly all the Israeli cluster bombs were fired in the last three days of the conflict, after a UN ceasefire deal had been reached, but before it came into effect – thereby yielding little military advantage. The timing of the Israeli strikes is “definitely questionable,” says Clark.

A nice litlle F**k You present to the Lebanese, because we can and the Americans will cover our asses at the UN and excuse anything we do.

Schools and mosques are attacked, or may be attacked, because Hamas hides weapons, fighters and ammunition in those buildings. If these buildings are not destroyed, Israelis believe that any action would be rendered useless simply because Hamas would recover from Israeli attacks in a few days time.