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Where I Take On a Nobel Prize Winner

Preparing for Krugman/Fishman Cage Match

I want to talk about the proposed auto bailout again in a macro context. As I concluded in my previous post, I am very hesitant to support the bailout because of the huge decrease in demand for cars, something that was started before the last few months and that initial evidence suggests will continue regardless of credit conditions. I believe that the credit crunch is merely the first symptom of underlying economic woes, not the driving force, and at some point will get around to putting together a bunch of charts that support this view. If demand does not increase and the car companies continue to bleed money then most of the arguments for the bailout don’t apply as the government will have to give them more and more money. At that point it would have been better off to let them fail and directly support the laid off workers.

However, this post isn’t about demand for cars per se, but the idea that we are just at the beginning of massive demand destruction across all industries; except perhaps entertainment and booze, which as the Great Depression showed are somewhat immune. This demand drop off will create an environment where government intervention beyond generalized bailouts will be called for. Indeed, some prominent economists are calling for this already. I’m going to talk about why I think they are wrong. Then I’m going to point out that letting things fall apart could actually be beneficial to long term goals.

The general idea is that there is a “natural” potential level for demand and employment, and that the business cycle overshoots this level both to the upside and downside. When the economy is doing very well then people make more and more goods until there is a glut, and then a recession starts, people are fired and demand drops. Theoretically, the government should let the supply glut work its way out of the system, but if demand falls too much and too many people lose their jobs, then we get into a positive feedback loop that makes things worse and worse and pulls us far away from the “natural equilibrium” point.

This is precisely the point that Paul Krugman has recently brought up time and again. Here he talks about how much direct stimulus would be required in order to close the current “output gap.” Many economists were against the tax rebate stimulus because they pointed out that people were in so much debt that it was unlikely to work. Those economists have been proven largely correct (I’ve read between 60-75% of it was saved either directly or paying down existing debt, in either case keeping consumption trends the same) and why the new ideas for stimulus are increasing unemployment or increasing direct government demand. Here Krugman explicitly addresses this viewpoint by saying that the government should attempt to stimulate the economy even if it has to do it by force and “recklessly.”

People that recognize macroeconomic policy even rudimentarily will know that this is the Keynesian approach to dealing with downturns. I do not believe that this approach will work, and in fact will make things much worse. I don’t want to argue that Keynes was wrong in general (as I don’t think he was) but at this particular moment in time his policies would fail. It seems that few economists are even thinking about macroeconomic and environmental changes that would make their equations invalid, and merely do what Krugman did where he suggested policy based on simple arithmetic and faith in a model.

In a more philosophical post I compared modern liberal economic thought (both Keynesian and monetarism) with the blind men and the elephant, who supposedly master their description of an individual piece without accounting for the whole. I’m not the only one that feels this way, a lot of scientists feel that economics should not consider itself a scientific discipline because there are too many confounding variables and it is not repeatable under observation.

I believe that the prominent economists and many liberals are forgetting some very important and obvious differences between today and the past. The first one is that we are already immensely in debt. I talked about this at length in my long series about why we are in trouble. The whole concept of Keynes is that done properly, we should save for rainy days by running surpluses in good times, and then spend those surpluses in the bad times. Obviously we forgot the “saving” part.

Because we are already in so much debt, adding to it will merely make interest yields rise enormously. I will demonstrate this through a very conservative calculation. Currently our foreign national debt is around 5.5-6 trillion dollars (the 10.5 trillion number is including domestic promises). This is about 40% of our GDP, and if you include private debt to foreign entities it would be significantly larger. Assuming an interest rate of around 4%, this means that about 1.6% of our growth every year is spent just paying back interest to foreign entities. If we add another $1-$2 trillion, which has been called for under stimulus plans, then it will rise to about 60% of GDP. Now 2.4% of our growth would be spent just paying back interest, and that number for an economy our large is very hard to maintain (advanced economies have a median rate of around 2%).

This means that unless something was done, we would get progressively poorer. The actual numbers are far worse as I didn’t include private debt, underfunded domestic commitments, increases in wealth disparity or foreign outflows, but I don’t want to exaggerate and those rates are beyond a simple calculation. The outcome is clear, we would either have to have a miraculous expansion of productivity, accept continuous and dramatic decreases in lifestyle, default on our promise to pay or inflate the monetary base. The credit market naturally assumes the latter two (for large nations inflation is most likely) and so demand for credit falls and interest rates rise. As this post points out, even natural laws of supply and demand will make interest rates rise tremendously aside from default or inflation concerns. This is one reason why Japan is floating the idea of bonds denominated in yen; then a devaluing of our currency would not affect their returns.

As interest rates rise, it just makes the problem even worse. If our interest rate rose to an average of 5%, then even our current amount of debt would barely be serviceable. What would happen is that increased interest rates would drive demand down even further and erode investment opportunities for people that had made wise decisions (by forcing them to invent their cash immediately and cash performance as opposed to safe and targeted investments), while we’d still be stuck where we are now. In essence, the stimulus would actually have a good chance of depressing demand even further.

On a more abstract level I challenge the validity of most of the models that economists use. It’s not that I think they are constructed improperly, it is that I don’t believe they are really universal. Too often it seems like economists use their equations like physicists use theirs, as though economics touched on fundamental truths – as if the equations were Laws, not Models! I think it is obvious that the environment that the models are constructed in matters greatly. For instance, a lot of modern economic thought has been derived during a period where we transferred to and then prospered under a petroleum based and mechanized economy. The period has also seen a huge population boom, quadrupling in the past 100 years. It is undeniable that any economic model implicitly relies on availability of resources, labor and efficiency. If any of those factors is drastically different then the relationship between variables may also be altered. I would argue that ALL of those fundamental principles have changed significantly and not in our favor.

Indeed, the economists that preceded neoclassical economics were much more focused on resource constraints and asset bubbles than our modern economics. Asset bubbles are not very well explained by modern economics and for a long time thought not worthy of study (Greenspan famously believed that it was worse to try to held off bubbles erroneously than let them form because we couldn’t tell what a “real” bubble was) and that has gotten us into the mess we’re in. Historically it was thought that mercantilism was the primary cause for economic problems and we are now more enlightened. But what if it was really environmental factors that aren’t properly accounted for? Is it any wonder that neo-classical economics arose right as the Industrial Revolution was taking hold? Perhaps mercantilism is a highly rational system in low growth capacity environments?

Of course economists recognize the importance of infrastructure, population and resource efficiency, but it doesn’t seem that they try to monitor it to determine whether their current models are still valid. Unfortunately the variables I am discussing are extremely hard (if not impossible) to observe and measure. Greenspan noted that we haven’t gotten any better at forecasting because it’s too difficult to pull apart the variables and I am not optimistic that we will ever be able to do better, although I will discuss some alternative models in the coming month.

The one thing that nearly everyone agrees with is that we have lived beyond our means the past three decades or more. Liberals focus more on the environment, population and consumerism, while Conservatives tended to focus more on budgets, entitlements and debt…well until “deficits didn’t matter” and Liberals started caring more. What both the pro and anti-government interventionists seem to be missing is that both sides were absolutely right that our lifestyle was unsustainable and now we are beginning to reap the consequences – yet both seem to argue that if only their ideology is chosen that we will get back on track. Basically it seems like people believe we can get a free lunch, but if you look at both economic and natural constraints, it is clear that we cannot.

Interestingly enough, Krugman himself had a follow up post that admits these problems indirectly. He points out that consumer spending is still above historical norms and that it is unclear how the government temporarily increasing demand will lead to a sustainable economy without global changes. All in all it seems that he is arguing that we have to try to do something, even if there is no long term plan, because if we do nothing things will be bad.

If the government is going to intervene, they should do it in a way that directly targets the basics of our economic environment. This involves researching/deploying sustainable and cheap energy, revamping infrastructure to be more efficient, cutting down on resource waste and reevaluating the role of labor. Obama has hinted that any bailout of the auto industry would have to account for those goals, but color me skeptical that it will. So far none of the bailout talk has truly grasped the enormity of the challenges we face. Moreover, we are in a weak position to try and accomplish those goals because we still have far too much excess in the system. Only when much of our current debt has been destroyed and we let demand destruction determine what is truly “necessary” will we be able to put our resources and labor to better use.

The Keynesian argument says that if deflation takes hold then businesses will cut back on investment and consumption because real interest rates will be high. Even if interest rates are only around 5-6% — historically average, but realistic because there will be many defaults – prices falling 4% would make a real interest rate of 9-10%. While this is true and will stifle small businesses and private innovation, the decreased interest rates on government debt (2-3%) and lower prices for standard of living will make it easier for the government to accomplish massive infrastructure projects and greatly improve our long term budget projections. In a perverted way, refraining from government intervention now will enable us to have better and more widespread government later, while also moving power away from private companies that have been irresponsible and to companies that were not.

People are still talking about whether to bailout or not and thinking about the consequences over the next few years; in reality we need to evaluate the consequences over the next few decades.

  • SteveK
    The gall of Detroit (and 3,000,000+ American workers)... How dare they think they should be able deprive OUR treasury of TWO AND A HALF MONTHS of the funds needed to sustain the War in Iraqi.

    They must be from the anti-America part of the country... A bunch of ungrateful bastards.

    /snark
  • mikkel
    Yeah that's why I'm conflicted. I mean seriously the amount that they are asking for is such a pittance compared to other stuff. But that's why I focused primarily on the larger argument about stimulus.

    Of course I am for cutting defense spending in total by a third, cutting agricultural subsidies by $100 billion and ending the war on drugs/legalizing marijuana which would save another $50 billion a year. So in total that'd be like $350-$400 billion a year that could be used for domestic infrastructure and services.

    All in all I have to say that if the car companies had a real 5 year plan for how they were going to reform that it would be hard to be against the bailout...but so far it sounds more like the financial bailout which has not really helped at all due to its schizophrenic nature.
  • Rudi
    Krugman was on the Liberal MSNBC shows and said that the Big Three bailout is needed now because the current economy can't take another negative hit. He said if the current situation happened in 1999 that the Big Three would deserve bankruptcy, the economy could take a hit back then.
  • DLS
    Well, consumer prices went _down_ rather than up at last check, so now everyone's starting to mutter about deflation. We shall see. Once the Detroit Three companies fail it's going to hurt here in Detroit, but the nation-wide economy won't be hit as hard. With the nation-wide economy a drop-off of demand is something to watch for not only "on the street" but indicated by additional price level drops.

    Rudi, that book I told you about describes a lot of what's going on, including how this time banks are involved. (The book neglects Paulson's ties to Wall Street and any crony nature of the bailout.)

    On a Detroit Three bailout or handout:

    Two wrongs don't make a right, even when the second wrong is a "pittance" compared to the first.

    The Detroit 3 and the UAW have formed an obsolete, failed model for thirty or more years. The CEOs and Gettelfinger should have already made changes to stop the cash hemmorhaging (NO EXCUSES) and should already have sent to Congress a plan for fundamental alteration of the companies to make them viable, if not still modern and vital like the thriving US auto industry outside of Detroit. They simply came, arrogantly, expecting a handout. In exchange for what? Now the UAW is screeching more loudly than ever that disaster is imminent. For them and the Detroit Three, yes, for now; for the rest of us, no catastrophe and even the Detroit Three may reorganize into something viable and modern -- even if decades too late. It's their own fault.

    As on past occasions, I've refrained from making a remark in order to let someone else present it first, but when nobody does (perhaps not feeling it's merited, perhaps not conceiving of it at all), I step back in. This time, it's the coup de grace on the already definitive annihilation I've made for any bogus case for a bailout of the Detroit Three (and payoff to the UAW for the vote this November, as well as providing life support until the modern industry can be unionized by "Card Check"). The coup de grace on the bogus bailout appeal? Everyone says, "look at Chrysler." It was bailed out and survived. To that, I reply -- look at Chrysler _now_. It's in the worst shape of the Detroit Three. It's merely kept going because Cerberus wanted eventually to sell it, piecemeal or in whole to one of the other two in Detroit (at which point it would be taken apart, anyway). Coming on private jets to DC to ask for the handout was simply adding to the idiocy.

    It's pretty bad when Democrats, ready to bail out losers of all kinds to ingratiate themselves and buy votes, when _Democrats_ in large numbers are reluctant to waste money on the Detroit Three. Even Barney the Barking Dog Frank during his left-wing blathering on NPR acknowledged that $25B is not enough and won't be the end. (And Frank blathered typical left-wing say-nothing-of-value "talking points".) Farther-left people like Robert Reich have stated that the UAW must face reality and change its ways, and even _Michael_Moore_ is less than enthusiastic about a bailout!

    [Barney the Barking Dog Frank]

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?st...

    Waxman replacing dinosaur Dingell and threatening environmentalist nonsense, including onerous to ridiculous demands on the auto industry (the modern companies as well as Detroit), only make Detroit's long-term prospects worse. Detroit is properly heading for bankruptcy and reorganization, anyway.

    [Good reader remarks]

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nardelli-wins-...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/upl...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/upl...

    OK, back to commentary...

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/bailout-watch-...
  • DLS
    And the latest news? Congress wants a plan from Detroit first.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idU...
  • DLS
    "I am for cutting defense spending in total by a third"

    Barney Frank wants a reduction of 25 per cent (a quarter). I suspect Frank is just arbitrary and wants to spend the money on other things (he likes buy-a-vote bailout schemes, currently).

    But there is room to cut, for real, because there is room for reform, which is likely inevitable:

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15521...

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/11/america/...

    http://www.cfr.org/publication/17793/

    [More]

    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/IEEE-Specia...
  • DLS
    Rudi, the author of that book I told you about had written an article arguing as Krugman argues as recalled at the start of this thread, here. Note not only the varying kinds of remarks it has drawn, but to what extent you may view his remarks (and Krugman's) as good or bad, right or wrong, if we do see demand drop more in a deflationary spiral (as Japan experienced for several years).

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/roge...

    and

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/roge...
  • Rudi
    DLS - Do you have a link to the book or the title. It sounds interesting, at least I'd like to look into the author.
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