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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t Bailout The Big 3 (Guest Voice Interview)</title>
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		<title>By: Bailout or Bankruptcy: What will Congress recommend? &#124; U.S. Common Sense</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-165329</link>
		<dc:creator>Bailout or Bankruptcy: What will Congress recommend? &#124; U.S. Common Sense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Houston Chronicle - &#8220;Letters: Should we bail out Big 3?&#8221; The Moderate Voice - &#8220;Don’t Bailout The Big 3&#8243; CNN Money - &#8220;Detroit bailout: 7 key questions&#8221; Seeking Alpha - &#8220;Should We Really [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Houston Chronicle &#8211; &#8220;Letters: Should we bail out Big 3?&#8221; The Moderate Voice &#8211; &#8220;Don’t Bailout The Big 3&#8243; CNN Money &#8211; &#8220;Detroit bailout: 7 key questions&#8221; Seeking Alpha &#8211; &#8220;Should We Really [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164495</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;whether or not 10 million more Americans will lose their jobs and whether or not this country will maintain any manufacturing capability at all&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I have waited for someone else to say it first, as I&#039;ve done in the past, but nobody has said it or realized it, so very well, here it is --&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The bailout is not only a short-term election payoff to the UAW.  (Gettelfinger and the union are desperate for a bailout, in addition to posturing stupidly against any concessions, when even people like Robert Reich are saying, or admitting, that they are in order, obviously.)  And no, it&#039;s not just the phony claim to want to keep Detroit alive until 2010 when the new union contract takes effect.  (The UAW wants federal bailout money to cover its retirement trust and the new hires are not the only employees whose costs are being paid by the Detroit Three.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;No, if a bailout now and subsequent bailout(s) that will be needed as well to keep Detroit alive another year or two get engineered, it gives Obama and the Dem Congress time to enact the new legislation for &quot;card check&quot; and open the non-union &quot;transplant&quot; sites in the USA (the modern US auto industry which has been healthy, not failing like Detroit) open to aggressive unionization targeting.  This should not be neglected or ignored or missed.  It&#039;s a longer-term thing than just election payoff or typical childish short-term thinking associated so often with bailouts (especially of companies and a union that has not planned any long overdue changes and has no contingency plan in case there is no bailout; how stupid as well as arrogant!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;whether or not 10 million more Americans will lose their jobs and whether or not this country will maintain any manufacturing capability at all&#8221;</p>
<p>I have waited for someone else to say it first, as I&#39;ve done in the past, but nobody has said it or realized it, so very well, here it is &#8211;</p>
<p>The bailout is not only a short-term election payoff to the UAW.  (Gettelfinger and the union are desperate for a bailout, in addition to posturing stupidly against any concessions, when even people like Robert Reich are saying, or admitting, that they are in order, obviously.)  And no, it&#39;s not just the phony claim to want to keep Detroit alive until 2010 when the new union contract takes effect.  (The UAW wants federal bailout money to cover its retirement trust and the new hires are not the only employees whose costs are being paid by the Detroit Three.)</p>
<p>No, if a bailout now and subsequent bailout(s) that will be needed as well to keep Detroit alive another year or two get engineered, it gives Obama and the Dem Congress time to enact the new legislation for &#8220;card check&#8221; and open the non-union &#8220;transplant&#8221; sites in the USA (the modern US auto industry which has been healthy, not failing like Detroit) open to aggressive unionization targeting.  This should not be neglected or ignored or missed.  It&#39;s a longer-term thing than just election payoff or typical childish short-term thinking associated so often with bailouts (especially of companies and a union that has not planned any long overdue changes and has no contingency plan in case there is no bailout; how stupid as well as arrogant!).</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164473</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/business/auto-industry/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/#comment-164473</guid>
		<description>The situation is more complicated than in 1979-1981.  The market share of Detroit&#039;s Three is now much smaller than it used to be.  In addition, plenty of other people are worried about their economic prospects these days and don&#039;t consider the Detroit Three to be any different; in addition, the problems at the Detroit Three are principally of their own making (they didn&#039;t learn much since the early 1980s) and they have been in apparent denial of reality.  Furthermore, while almost all of us blame the management first and foremost (and the boards of &quot;directors&quot; at those companies), we don&#039;t have that much sympathy for the UAW membership, who have enjoyed a relatively lavish &quot;aristocrats of labor&quot; lifestyle, paid much more than others in thriving similar industries.  (In fact, anyone smart in the UAW would have been living on a normal-standard lifestyle and would be in a position now to retire on a mountain of money from investing the difference in pay, in addition to enjoying unsustainably lavish retirement benefits.)  There isn&#039;t much sympathy for the UAW people (and none for the stubborn leadership) other than that for which they are _not_ responsible.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Obviously the companies (and the UAW) cannot continue as is.  Before coming for a bailout the huge spending of cash by the companies should have been greatly reduced or ended, other reforms made, and a believeable plan prepared for approval prior to getting any bailout.  But there is none.  The Detroit Three people simply assume (arrogantly, even) that they naturally deserve a bailout.  They do not.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And what may probably the clincher as an insult to Americans, a statement by a top GM person, exemplifies the idiocy and the non-deserving nature of the Detroit set:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;There is no Plan B being discussed beyond a government bailout.&quot; -- management&#039;s position</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The situation is more complicated than in 1979-1981.  The market share of Detroit&#39;s Three is now much smaller than it used to be.  In addition, plenty of other people are worried about their economic prospects these days and don&#39;t consider the Detroit Three to be any different; in addition, the problems at the Detroit Three are principally of their own making (they didn&#39;t learn much since the early 1980s) and they have been in apparent denial of reality.  Furthermore, while almost all of us blame the management first and foremost (and the boards of &#8220;directors&#8221; at those companies), we don&#39;t have that much sympathy for the UAW membership, who have enjoyed a relatively lavish &#8220;aristocrats of labor&#8221; lifestyle, paid much more than others in thriving similar industries.  (In fact, anyone smart in the UAW would have been living on a normal-standard lifestyle and would be in a position now to retire on a mountain of money from investing the difference in pay, in addition to enjoying unsustainably lavish retirement benefits.)  There isn&#39;t much sympathy for the UAW people (and none for the stubborn leadership) other than that for which they are _not_ responsible.</p>
<p>Obviously the companies (and the UAW) cannot continue as is.  Before coming for a bailout the huge spending of cash by the companies should have been greatly reduced or ended, other reforms made, and a believeable plan prepared for approval prior to getting any bailout.  But there is none.  The Detroit Three people simply assume (arrogantly, even) that they naturally deserve a bailout.  They do not.</p>
<p>And what may probably the clincher as an insult to Americans, a statement by a top GM person, exemplifies the idiocy and the non-deserving nature of the Detroit set:</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no Plan B being discussed beyond a government bailout.&#8221; &#8212; management&#39;s position</p>
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		<title>By: websmith</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164468</link>
		<dc:creator>websmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What Congress, the Senate, and the President are arguing about is whether or not 10 million more Americans will lose their jobs and whether or not this country will maintain any manufacturing capability at all. If we lose 10 million jobs the loss of commerce will cost us 10 million more jobs and affect foreign companies and the ability of people to eat in 3rd world countries.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The unemployment costs to the taxpayers, should they fail to provide our automakers loans, will exceed $200 billion per year. Aside from all of the other issues that these armchair automakers are trying to cloud the issue with, it definitely is a no-brainer so, even these people should not be having this much trouble making a decision.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://ewebsmith.com/gov/autobailout.html&quot;&gt;http://ewebsmith.com/gov/autobailout.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Congress, the Senate, and the President are arguing about is whether or not 10 million more Americans will lose their jobs and whether or not this country will maintain any manufacturing capability at all. If we lose 10 million jobs the loss of commerce will cost us 10 million more jobs and affect foreign companies and the ability of people to eat in 3rd world countries.</p>
<p>The unemployment costs to the taxpayers, should they fail to provide our automakers loans, will exceed $200 billion per year. Aside from all of the other issues that these armchair automakers are trying to cloud the issue with, it definitely is a no-brainer so, even these people should not be having this much trouble making a decision.</p>
<p><a href="http://ewebsmith.com/gov/autobailout.html">http://ewebsmith.com/gov/autobailout.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164467</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/business/auto-industry/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/#comment-164467</guid>
		<description>Pacatrue -- the two best known EV projects in addition to the volt are by the Tesla and Fisker.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Chevy Volt has been hyped but to date it looks like it&#039;ll be largely a stunt like EV-1 was.  It&#039;s fun to drive (silent and swift) but the range is pathetic and it costs far, far too much to make sense.  It may become like the EV-1, little more than a PR stunt, making sense most for people to use in a test driver program to show off the car while having some of the costs reduced or subsidized.  Sales of a $40,000 vehicle with limited range and a long recharging time will never be large.  Volt is not a miracle and it probably will not save GM.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;(I saw the EV-1 when it was in Phoenix during a demonstration test-drive public-participation program, and I was lucky and got to drive one in Atlanta at an electric vehicle show there.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Tesla, one of the other examples, is a high-end ultra-niche undertaking, and Fisker is not really that much different right now.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://gm-volt.com/about/&quot;&gt;http://gm-volt.com/about/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/resyourcar.php&quot;&gt;http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/resyourcar.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/news/&quot;&gt;http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/news/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;* * *&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Big suppliers like TRW serve ALL of the Big Three, and the loss of GM would be a huge immediate hit on them.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Sad, but true, and in addition, the buildup of failure at the Detroit Three will especially hurt here in the Detroit metro area, because that&#039;s where so much of the Big Three&#039;s facilities are located.  Just here where I am, a colleague&#039;s husband just lost his job -- the industry is downsizing or &quot;rightsizing&quot; not necessarily due to panic about the current conditions, or a rational result of the recent economic downturn, but also due to recognition that the Detroit complex is simply too large for its market share, even in good times.  And it&#039;s going hurt the Detroit area especially hard as this kind of job-loss scenario unfolds, make no mistake about it.  Not all people are like, say, GM management, and have chosen to ignore reality for decades.  Many are aware that things must change, and even that change is overdue, but the major decisions were in others&#039; hands (lying ultimately on the Detroit Three&#039;s top management, who continue to pay themselves millions of dollars, for what?).  Many have ties here that strike others as odd -- they have deep roots.  (So many people who have left Michigan already never wanted to, and they want to return if things were much better, much different.)  There&#039;s no avoiding the consequences here.  (Note also that here in Detroit there is growth in military design and production, but it involves at least some activity that is ripe for reduction or cancellation as has been long known and which the Defense Business Board has bleakly reported recently.  That is, more industrial and engineering activity is likely to be &quot;struck&quot; as early as next year.  What job losses we&#039;ve been hearing of already, are nothing compared to what may happen.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;With the Detroit automakers, and for Detroit (more than Michigan as a whole), it&#039;s a huge price to pay for apparently not having learned or acted well since Chrysler&#039;s problems and bailout long ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pacatrue &#8212; the two best known EV projects in addition to the volt are by the Tesla and Fisker.</p>
<p>The Chevy Volt has been hyped but to date it looks like it&#39;ll be largely a stunt like EV-1 was.  It&#39;s fun to drive (silent and swift) but the range is pathetic and it costs far, far too much to make sense.  It may become like the EV-1, little more than a PR stunt, making sense most for people to use in a test driver program to show off the car while having some of the costs reduced or subsidized.  Sales of a $40,000 vehicle with limited range and a long recharging time will never be large.  Volt is not a miracle and it probably will not save GM.</p>
<p>(I saw the EV-1 when it was in Phoenix during a demonstration test-drive public-participation program, and I was lucky and got to drive one in Atlanta at an electric vehicle show there.)</p>
<p>Tesla, one of the other examples, is a high-end ultra-niche undertaking, and Fisker is not really that much different right now.</p>
<p><a href="http://gm-volt.com/about/">http://gm-volt.com/about/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/resyourcar.php">http://www.teslamotors.com/buy/resyourcar.php</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/news/">http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/news/</a></p>
<p>* * *</p>
<p>&#8220;Big suppliers like TRW serve ALL of the Big Three, and the loss of GM would be a huge immediate hit on them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sad, but true, and in addition, the buildup of failure at the Detroit Three will especially hurt here in the Detroit metro area, because that&#39;s where so much of the Big Three&#39;s facilities are located.  Just here where I am, a colleague&#39;s husband just lost his job &#8212; the industry is downsizing or &#8220;rightsizing&#8221; not necessarily due to panic about the current conditions, or a rational result of the recent economic downturn, but also due to recognition that the Detroit complex is simply too large for its market share, even in good times.  And it&#39;s going hurt the Detroit area especially hard as this kind of job-loss scenario unfolds, make no mistake about it.  Not all people are like, say, GM management, and have chosen to ignore reality for decades.  Many are aware that things must change, and even that change is overdue, but the major decisions were in others&#39; hands (lying ultimately on the Detroit Three&#39;s top management, who continue to pay themselves millions of dollars, for what?).  Many have ties here that strike others as odd &#8212; they have deep roots.  (So many people who have left Michigan already never wanted to, and they want to return if things were much better, much different.)  There&#39;s no avoiding the consequences here.  (Note also that here in Detroit there is growth in military design and production, but it involves at least some activity that is ripe for reduction or cancellation as has been long known and which the Defense Business Board has bleakly reported recently.  That is, more industrial and engineering activity is likely to be &#8220;struck&#8221; as early as next year.  What job losses we&#39;ve been hearing of already, are nothing compared to what may happen.</p>
<p>With the Detroit automakers, and for Detroit (more than Michigan as a whole), it&#39;s a huge price to pay for apparently not having learned or acted well since Chrysler&#39;s problems and bailout long ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Slamfu</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164460</link>
		<dc:creator>Slamfu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The bailout is the death of capitalism.  Or rather, Capitalism has failed us.  The system in general does not compensate for the idiots whose greed undermines the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bailout is the death of capitalism.  Or rather, Capitalism has failed us.  The system in general does not compensate for the idiots whose greed undermines the system.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryL</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164457</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/business/auto-industry/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/#comment-164457</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I don’t agree that that’s going to happen. It’s counter-intuitive. If one of them goes down, yes, some of the parts suppliers that supply one of them exclusively, GM for example, will be in trouble if GM goes down. But the parts suppliers that supply Ford and Chrysler will suddenly see their orders increase. So I don’t buy the linkage that lands us in this situation where we lose 3 million jobs.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Name a parts supplier that supplies GM exclusively. I bet you can&#039;t. Big suppliers like TRW serve ALL of the Big Three, and the loss of GM would be a huge immediate hit on them. The loss of GM does not magically mean that suddenly orders come rushing in from Ford and Chrysler. Do you really think that somehow the tanking of GM would give consumers greater confidence that they must now go out and buy a car from someone else? Things aren&#039;t going to work like that. 0% financing is still available from Toyota, because they&#039;re still decently capitalized, but even they are seeing their sales drop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don’t agree that that’s going to happen. It’s counter-intuitive. If one of them goes down, yes, some of the parts suppliers that supply one of them exclusively, GM for example, will be in trouble if GM goes down. But the parts suppliers that supply Ford and Chrysler will suddenly see their orders increase. So I don’t buy the linkage that lands us in this situation where we lose 3 million jobs.</i></p>
<p>Name a parts supplier that supplies GM exclusively. I bet you can&#39;t. Big suppliers like TRW serve ALL of the Big Three, and the loss of GM would be a huge immediate hit on them. The loss of GM does not magically mean that suddenly orders come rushing in from Ford and Chrysler. Do you really think that somehow the tanking of GM would give consumers greater confidence that they must now go out and buy a car from someone else? Things aren&#39;t going to work like that. 0% financing is still available from Toyota, because they&#39;re still decently capitalized, but even they are seeing their sales drop.</p>
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		<title>By: pacatrue</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/24415/dont-bailout-the-big-3-guest-voice-interview/comment-page-1/#comment-164456</link>
		<dc:creator>pacatrue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This is a bit of an aside, but does anyone know the prospects of new (or existing but small) American car companies growing now? Even without the crisis, the cost structures of the Big Three that the sector seems ripe for a &quot;Southwest&quot; of automotive manufacturing. Are any of the tiny electric car companies burgeoning power houses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a bit of an aside, but does anyone know the prospects of new (or existing but small) American car companies growing now? Even without the crisis, the cost structures of the Big Three that the sector seems ripe for a &#8220;Southwest&#8221; of automotive manufacturing. Are any of the tiny electric car companies burgeoning power houses?</p>
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