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	<title>Comments on: Abortion, Politics, and the Grace of an Informed Reply</title>
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		<title>By: OURANOS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-163460</link>
		<dc:creator>OURANOS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As someone who is very much pro-life it pains me to admit this, but the idea that electing a particular president has significant effect on the regulation of abortion is simply incorrect. Just as electing George W. Bush demonstrated, a pro-life president and a Republican-majority legislature regulation do not equate to a widespread push for a ban on abortion. In fact with the notable exception of the ban on partial birth abortion, little has changed during Bush&#039;s two terms. Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned it just goes back to the states to decide, and as the ballot measure in South Dakota(a &quot;Red&quot; State) just proved even the more conservative areas of the country are not willing to enact strong anti-abortion legislation. If one of the country&#039;s more conservative states is unwilling to, it is unlikely that other states would do so. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also the idea that liberal judges are the only ones capable of judicial activism is unfair and misleading,  judges of all political affiliations are perfectly capable of making decisions that can be considered &quot;activism&quot; . I am not a liberal and disagree with much of their ideology, but I still find it offensive that anyone would believe only judges of the opposite end of the political spectrum can make mistakes. There have been many poor decisions made by conservative, moderate, and liberal justices, everyone makes mistakes. The truth is that the supreme court is essentially a sitting constitutional convention and the majority of Americans simply expect the justices to write the opinions they agree with into law. When the court rules one way those with opposing views almost always cry judicial activism regardless of the decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who is very much pro-life it pains me to admit this, but the idea that electing a particular president has significant effect on the regulation of abortion is simply incorrect. Just as electing George W. Bush demonstrated, a pro-life president and a Republican-majority legislature regulation do not equate to a widespread push for a ban on abortion. In fact with the notable exception of the ban on partial birth abortion, little has changed during Bush&#39;s two terms. Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned it just goes back to the states to decide, and as the ballot measure in South Dakota(a &#8220;Red&#8221; State) just proved even the more conservative areas of the country are not willing to enact strong anti-abortion legislation. If one of the country&#39;s more conservative states is unwilling to, it is unlikely that other states would do so. </p>
<p>Also the idea that liberal judges are the only ones capable of judicial activism is unfair and misleading,  judges of all political affiliations are perfectly capable of making decisions that can be considered &#8220;activism&#8221; . I am not a liberal and disagree with much of their ideology, but I still find it offensive that anyone would believe only judges of the opposite end of the political spectrum can make mistakes. There have been many poor decisions made by conservative, moderate, and liberal justices, everyone makes mistakes. The truth is that the supreme court is essentially a sitting constitutional convention and the majority of Americans simply expect the justices to write the opinions they agree with into law. When the court rules one way those with opposing views almost always cry judicial activism regardless of the decision.</p>
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		<title>By: DLS</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-162122</link>
		<dc:creator>DLS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Wait until Medicare is provided to girls and women able to get pregnant.  Abortion will be impossible to escape then.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I roll my eyes when I hear some say that abortion is an important issue in this or any federal election (more noted these days among conservatives than liberals, other than the lunatic militant far-left fringe obscessed with Roe v. Wade and their fellows defending judicial activism).  Abortion properly has never been and shouldn&#039;t ever become a federal issue, but left correctly to states and localities to legislate as they see fit.  Sadly, with activist rulings, what the Left has sown, not only must it now reap, but the rest of us, unfortunately.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait until Medicare is provided to girls and women able to get pregnant.  Abortion will be impossible to escape then.</p>
<p>I roll my eyes when I hear some say that abortion is an important issue in this or any federal election (more noted these days among conservatives than liberals, other than the lunatic militant far-left fringe obscessed with Roe v. Wade and their fellows defending judicial activism).  Abortion properly has never been and shouldn&#39;t ever become a federal issue, but left correctly to states and localities to legislate as they see fit.  Sadly, with activist rulings, what the Left has sown, not only must it now reap, but the rest of us, unfortunately.</p>
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		<title>By: jdave</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-162098</link>
		<dc:creator>jdave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 19:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Machester2 - I&#039;m not nearly as optimistic as you are that voters are ready to limit access to abortion, but I hope you are right.  South Dakota has a referendum on it Tuesday.  We&#039;ll see.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Let me clarify briefly.  Yes, voting on abortion alone is too narrow.  But it is certainly justifiable to conclude that abortion outweighs all other considerations.  My argument was more specifically: RvW won&#039;t do anything if voters do not want restrictions on abortion, and if that&#039;s the case, then it is not at all justifiable to ignore everything else for the sake of a futile attempt at stopping abortions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Machester2 &#8211; I&#39;m not nearly as optimistic as you are that voters are ready to limit access to abortion, but I hope you are right.  South Dakota has a referendum on it Tuesday.  We&#39;ll see.</p>
<p>Let me clarify briefly.  Yes, voting on abortion alone is too narrow.  But it is certainly justifiable to conclude that abortion outweighs all other considerations.  My argument was more specifically: RvW won&#39;t do anything if voters do not want restrictions on abortion, and if that&#39;s the case, then it is not at all justifiable to ignore everything else for the sake of a futile attempt at stopping abortions.</p>
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		<title>By: Manchester2</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-162053</link>
		<dc:creator>Manchester2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/abortion/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/#comment-162053</guid>
		<description>JDave -&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If the desired outcome is a &lt;i&gt;decrease&lt;/i&gt; in the number of abortions, then overturning &lt;i&gt;Roe v. Wade&lt;/i&gt; will move us closer to that outcome. How so? Look at Sabato&#039;s electoral map. Wherever you see Red, you&#039;re likely post-Roe to have very limited access to abortion, or no access. In many of the blue states, you&#039;d have some restrictions on abortion, and in some blue states, no restrictions. This assumes:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;1) McCain wins;&lt;br&gt;2) he appoints conservative judges to the Supreme Court;&lt;br&gt;3) those judges actually vote as expected, and eventually overturn Roe;&lt;br&gt;4) things revert to more-or-less how they were pre-1973, which may be assuming too much.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Under a President Obama, the Freedom of Choice Act will likely (though not inevitably) pass, an act that would roll back current restrictions states have put on abortion. What would that outcome be? Almost certainly, that would mean more abortions annually than we now have.&lt;br&gt;We also should think globally on this, and a President Obama would overturn the Mexico City policy, which currently forbids U.S.-AID non-governmental organizations receiving U.S. tax dollars from promoting abortions oversees.  So, the number of abortions overseas would also increase.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;You may think that voting one&#039;s view on abortion is too narrow. Many cultural conservatives do not. Generally speaking, I follow this rule, but have made exceptions where checks on abortion were already in-place, and there was a fiscally conservative candidate on the ballot who (unfortunately) was also pro-abortion. Sometimes, it&#039;s difficult to balance out social and fiscal conservatism in one vote!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JDave -</p>
<p>If the desired outcome is a <i>decrease</i> in the number of abortions, then overturning <i>Roe v. Wade</i> will move us closer to that outcome. How so? Look at Sabato&#39;s electoral map. Wherever you see Red, you&#39;re likely post-Roe to have very limited access to abortion, or no access. In many of the blue states, you&#39;d have some restrictions on abortion, and in some blue states, no restrictions. This assumes:</p>
<p>1) McCain wins;<br />2) he appoints conservative judges to the Supreme Court;<br />3) those judges actually vote as expected, and eventually overturn Roe;<br />4) things revert to more-or-less how they were pre-1973, which may be assuming too much.</p>
<p>Under a President Obama, the Freedom of Choice Act will likely (though not inevitably) pass, an act that would roll back current restrictions states have put on abortion. What would that outcome be? Almost certainly, that would mean more abortions annually than we now have.<br />We also should think globally on this, and a President Obama would overturn the Mexico City policy, which currently forbids U.S.-AID non-governmental organizations receiving U.S. tax dollars from promoting abortions oversees.  So, the number of abortions overseas would also increase.</p>
<p>You may think that voting one&#39;s view on abortion is too narrow. Many cultural conservatives do not. Generally speaking, I follow this rule, but have made exceptions where checks on abortion were already in-place, and there was a fiscally conservative candidate on the ballot who (unfortunately) was also pro-abortion. Sometimes, it&#39;s difficult to balance out social and fiscal conservatism in one vote!</p>
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		<title>By: Manchester2</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-162052</link>
		<dc:creator>Manchester2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The response assumes that greater education = fewer unwanted pregnancies. Has a study been done that &lt;i&gt;establishes&lt;/i&gt; this assumption?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The response assumes that greater education = fewer unwanted pregnancies. Has a study been done that <i>establishes</i> this assumption?</p>
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		<title>By: im4america2</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-162043</link>
		<dc:creator>im4america2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Religion as we&#039;ve known it is dead.  Reverend Obama has led his flock toward secular liberalism and away from the living God and the fact of sin.  Sin has been redefined to meet political convenience.  Reverend Obama&#039;s referendum for Change shall not be circumvented and such archaic Christian beliefs will no longer be tolerated in Church of Obama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion as we&#39;ve known it is dead.  Reverend Obama has led his flock toward secular liberalism and away from the living God and the fact of sin.  Sin has been redefined to meet political convenience.  Reverend Obama&#39;s referendum for Change shall not be circumvented and such archaic Christian beliefs will no longer be tolerated in Church of Obama.</p>
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		<title>By: jdave</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-161958</link>
		<dc:creator>jdave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Nov 2008 01:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/abortion/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/#comment-161958</guid>
		<description>Quite right pacatrue!  For example, I don&#039;t know any serious person, theologian, or church that would not abort the unborn child when the mother would otherwise die.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite right pacatrue!  For example, I don&#39;t know any serious person, theologian, or church that would not abort the unborn child when the mother would otherwise die.</p>
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		<title>By: pacatrue</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-161933</link>
		<dc:creator>pacatrue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 22:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Of course, the morality of abortion cannot be decided based simply upon the personhood status of the unborn child (notice I didn&#039;t call it a fetus for rhetorical reasons). If one&#039;s view of abortion depended only on how one views the infant, then one has reduced the person bearing the infant to nothing. Sort of a box or biological incubator. In my view, pregnancy is one life inside of another life, and I cannot only consider one of them in figuring out the way to act.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, the morality of abortion cannot be decided based simply upon the personhood status of the unborn child (notice I didn&#39;t call it a fetus for rhetorical reasons). If one&#39;s view of abortion depended only on how one views the infant, then one has reduced the person bearing the infant to nothing. Sort of a box or biological incubator. In my view, pregnancy is one life inside of another life, and I cannot only consider one of them in figuring out the way to act.</p>
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		<title>By: jdave</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-161919</link>
		<dc:creator>jdave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/abortion/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/#comment-161919</guid>
		<description>Pete,&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I respect your decision, especially since I&#039;ve made the same one, and I am both a devout Catholic and staunchly pro-life.  I&#039;d like you to consider though, how your reasoning skirts some important considerations.  At the same time I think it points out serious flaws in the logic of so many bishops.  First the bishops....&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I suggest meeting the challenge of the bishops head-on. Recognize that abortion is taking an innocent life, BUT voting for Mccain will absolutely NOT stop the 1.4 million abortions we have every year.  That is the false premise of their reasoning: 1.4million murders trumps everything else.  They also fail to recognize two very important matters about the role of the president: 1) he has very little direct effect on abortion - which they want to be the ONLY consideration, and 2) they have very direct effect on many other matters - which they want us to ignore.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Even if vile Roe v Wade were overturned, the vast majority of Americans will vote to keep abortion legal.  I think that is horrible, but it is what it is.  The president is not king.  The president must enforce the will of the people.  Too many pro-lifers blame the courts and the president for abortion, when it is the people who are to blame.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now on to your reasoning.....&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s all well and good to say that you are considering a panoply of moral issues, but a truly honest approach must recognize that not every moral issue is equal in weight.  Do you believe that abortion is the taking of an innocent life? Or is it merely an ugly reality?  You make no claim either way in your reasoning, and it would have a great effect on how you weigh the moral question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,</p>
<p>I respect your decision, especially since I&#39;ve made the same one, and I am both a devout Catholic and staunchly pro-life.  I&#39;d like you to consider though, how your reasoning skirts some important considerations.  At the same time I think it points out serious flaws in the logic of so many bishops.  First the bishops&#8230;.</p>
<p>I suggest meeting the challenge of the bishops head-on. Recognize that abortion is taking an innocent life, BUT voting for Mccain will absolutely NOT stop the 1.4 million abortions we have every year.  That is the false premise of their reasoning: 1.4million murders trumps everything else.  They also fail to recognize two very important matters about the role of the president: 1) he has very little direct effect on abortion &#8211; which they want to be the ONLY consideration, and 2) they have very direct effect on many other matters &#8211; which they want us to ignore.</p>
<p>Even if vile Roe v Wade were overturned, the vast majority of Americans will vote to keep abortion legal.  I think that is horrible, but it is what it is.  The president is not king.  The president must enforce the will of the people.  Too many pro-lifers blame the courts and the president for abortion, when it is the people who are to blame.</p>
<p>Now on to your reasoning&#8230;..</p>
<p>It&#39;s all well and good to say that you are considering a panoply of moral issues, but a truly honest approach must recognize that not every moral issue is equal in weight.  Do you believe that abortion is the taking of an innocent life? Or is it merely an ugly reality?  You make no claim either way in your reasoning, and it would have a great effect on how you weigh the moral question.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-161898</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I happen to agree with the part about not being a one issue voter- I&#039;m strongly prolife but I do consider the totality of a candidate&#039;s positions. I don&#039;t think there&#039;s anything inconsistent in the Catholic Church&#039;s weighting of the issue of abortion though- but then from there, each voter has to decide if they agree with that.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I do take issue with the argument that an Obama administration will see fewer abortions. Obama promises to sign the FOCA in the early days of his administration- this will have the effect of overturning ALL state laws restricting abortions and requiring parental consent.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And since when would a Catholic theologian find it morally acceptable to substitute contraception for abortion? You may disagree that the former is immoral, but if you disagree than you are not using Catholic moral teaching. Personally I think the legal line should be between the two- artificial contraception is a choice that I would not make, but it&#039;s based on religious reasoning and thus should not be part of our legal code- but abortion involves the killing of a human being and thus is distinctly a legal concern. I&#039;m just trying to point out though that anyone who calls himself a Catholic theologian is actually not acting in good standing with Rome to tout birth control as a remedy for abortions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I happen to agree with the part about not being a one issue voter- I&#39;m strongly prolife but I do consider the totality of a candidate&#39;s positions. I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything inconsistent in the Catholic Church&#39;s weighting of the issue of abortion though- but then from there, each voter has to decide if they agree with that.</p>
<p>I do take issue with the argument that an Obama administration will see fewer abortions. Obama promises to sign the FOCA in the early days of his administration- this will have the effect of overturning ALL state laws restricting abortions and requiring parental consent.</p>
<p>And since when would a Catholic theologian find it morally acceptable to substitute contraception for abortion? You may disagree that the former is immoral, but if you disagree than you are not using Catholic moral teaching. Personally I think the legal line should be between the two- artificial contraception is a choice that I would not make, but it&#39;s based on religious reasoning and thus should not be part of our legal code- but abortion involves the killing of a human being and thus is distinctly a legal concern. I&#39;m just trying to point out though that anyone who calls himself a Catholic theologian is actually not acting in good standing with Rome to tout birth control as a remedy for abortions.</p>
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		<title>By: smmoulder</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-161895</link>
		<dc:creator>smmoulder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 19:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think this response is not only a reasoned response, but captures the essence of the moderate perspective. That is, those of us who have not sworn allegiance to any rigid ideological perspective can (and will) look at the bigger picture. I feel that the most telling arguments are those that point out how there are likely to be &lt;b&gt;fewer &lt;/b&gt; abortions under Obama than McCain. And that from a broader moral/Christian perspective, Obama nets out as the &quot;better&quot; candidate.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I read this response as a reasoned argument that netted out in support for Obama. Not the swooning of someone under the Obama spell, but someone who used their intellect and an open mind to come to a well thought out conclusion. The essence of the moderate perspective.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The fact that this person went to the same school as I did was just icing on the cake. :-)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Stuart</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this response is not only a reasoned response, but captures the essence of the moderate perspective. That is, those of us who have not sworn allegiance to any rigid ideological perspective can (and will) look at the bigger picture. I feel that the most telling arguments are those that point out how there are likely to be <b>fewer </b> abortions under Obama than McCain. And that from a broader moral/Christian perspective, Obama nets out as the &#8220;better&#8221; candidate.</p>
<p>I read this response as a reasoned argument that netted out in support for Obama. Not the swooning of someone under the Obama spell, but someone who used their intellect and an open mind to come to a well thought out conclusion. The essence of the moderate perspective.</p>
<p>The fact that this person went to the same school as I did was just icing on the cake. <img src='http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Stuart</p>
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		<title>By: Abortion, Politics, and the Grace of an Informed Reply &#124; Pelican Project Pro-Life</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/23946/abortion-politics-and-the-grace-of-an-intelligent-reply/comment-page-1/#comment-161894</link>
		<dc:creator>Abortion, Politics, and the Grace of an Informed Reply &#124; Pelican Project Pro-Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] More:  Abortion, Politics, and the Grace of an Informed Reply [...]</description>
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