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Riding the “Redistribution” Railroad into the Gutter

KarlMarx.jpgIn a more attractive world I would have preferred to ignore the ongoing clatter and chatter regarding Sen. Barack Obama’s supposed predilections towards redistribution, Marxism and Socialism. Audio tapes and old clippings have been produced where Obama comments on the shortcomings of the Warren Court and invokes the dreaded “R word.” Unfortunately, Sen. McCain is still clucking about it out on the trail and his supporter in both the media and the blogosphere continue the chant. It makes for some good sound bites, but I’m afraid that it’s high time to remind some of my conservative, McCain-supporting friends of some uncomfortable facts.

John McCain’s issues platform calls for a plan to fix Social Security which still involves collecting money from people, including the wealthy, and redistributing it to poor people, many of whom will pay no taxes at all. McCain has a health-care plan which will collect money from people, including the wealthy who can afford their own health insurance, and redistribute it in the form of $5,000 checks to poor people without such coverage, many of whom will pay no taxes. (In fact, he’s made a point of criticizing Obama’s health care plan over just this point.) McCain continues to tolerate and support a progressive tax system – and I’m just taking him directly on his word about how he would structure proposed tax rates and cuts here – which will collect a larger amount of money from people who earn more and deposit those funds into a Federal system which will, in some cases, redistribute some of those funds to Americans who earn less money, some of whom will pay no taxes at all.

And while we’re on the subject, both McCain and Obama recently gave their support (if reluctantly) to a bailout plan which will take taxpayer money and buy into the banking system. McCain goes one step further and proposes to take your taxpayer dollars and buy out the mortgages of distressed homeowners, replacing them with new deals. Ladies and gentlemen, you need to face up to a bit of “straight talk” on this subject. You are already living in an America with a fully-functional socialist government, and it has been so for the entire living memory of virtually every person reading this column. And let us not forget that John McCain has had his hand on the wheel of that ship for decades. The only real question for voters here is exactly how much socialism you can tolerate with your morning coffee.

And yet McCain supporters – including some who I personally know are much better and smarter than this – continue chattering on about “the R word” as if it’s some sort of holy talisman which will sink Obama like a stone and lift McCain up on the wings of an energized electorate. John McCain is a great man, an honest to God American hero and an experienced leader. All through this campaign, while doing my series of “contrast and compare” pieces, I have noted that his domestic policy proposals were superior to Obama’s in my eyes. I rather wish he had continued campaigning on exactly those points. This frantic thrashing about in trying to paint Obama as some sort of Marxist smells of the desperate flailing of a drowning man going down for the third time with no lifeboat in sight. We may never know for sure what brought the campaign to this point, but perhaps Big Mac should have reached for a life preserver instead of an anchor.

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  • DLS
    GO AND SIN NO MORE.

    There's nothing wrong with the criticism, and just because we have redistribution now, even some that is accepted as fact and even conceded, obviously(!) that doesn't justify more of the same.

    I feel disappointed when fewer and fewer can understand and logically interpret the admonition.
  • JMattM
    The democrats, instead of brushing it off, could respond with six words: Graduated. Income. Tax. Credit. Ronald. Reagan.
  • DLS
    Palin is not part of this campaign tactic -- why the picture? Also, it's not desperation and flailing by McCain; it is truthful and effective among those who know, and who care. Rather than tangential, it's central, but as with so much else in the McCain campaign we've seen, it's again too little, too late.
  • DLS
    The Democrats are handling this well -- they are quiet (they don't want to address this intelligently, given the nature of so much of their electorate). They know that there are many desperate people (and many not so desperate but who can convince themselves otherwise) who simply want to be given something, and get relief from their current state of affairs (they don't care about propriety or the finer points of our system). Obama's federal income tax scheme alone promises to "reward" vast numbers of people, who will come to enjoy and even expect this in the future -- which is more likely if they choose or continue to vote Democratic. Add to that the envy-driven class warfare inherent in what has been said about tax policy by Democrats, and the fake non-salvation of Social Security proposed in the form of a payroll tax on incomes above $250,000 annually and you have plenty of people who stand to benefit financially and psychologically. Add to that the media's tilt for Obama (predictable) and exaggeration of big-business villany and it's easy to see why there will be a vast army of voters who would accept and even desire redistribution -- rob relatively few Peters to pay many, many Pauls means many many new votes from the Pauls. It's far above and beyond any utilitiarian arguments in favor of redistribution and its relative, tax progressivity (something I as a critic in practice demonstrate better competence and understanding of than their often-misbehaving advocates and proponents).
  • Loviatar
    DLS,

    I'll qualify this at the beginning, I am not being snarky, but I really want to know how you guys can totally disconnect yourselves from reality.


    How do you do it?

    Jazz just spent 4 paragraphs and approximately 600 words explaining the fallacy of the right-wing's "Redistribution" talk track, he did it with facts and verifiable references. He did it by pointing to John McCain's own words and actions, you immediately (within 30 minutes) responded by claiming everything Jazz said was untrue and immaterial anyway, in your world John McCain's "Redistribution" strategy is truthful and effective among those who know, and who care. Rather than tangential, it's central. You did this without any facts or backup, but with a certainty that would be admired if it wasn't a little scary.

    I saw total disconnect from the right-wing at the start of the Clinton presidency, where they went over the top on every imaginable subject (some we couldn't even imagine at the time) and just made up their own facts and reality. Obviously its gotten much worse in the past 16+years, but I have to ask, How do you do it?
  • Lit3Bolt
    DLS,

    I admire your message discipline and how quickly you have memorized the script for the new Republican play, "The Redistribution." With some coaching from your director, Matt Drudge, I'm sure it will be a hit on Broadway for (four) years to come.
  • There comes a point where the comity and polite discourse of writing a column must give way to aggravation and antipathy in the comments community. Having ignored everything that I wrote and chosen to drop a big turn in the chat bowl without defending it, I will put you to the test, DLS. Name me one... (no, wait... this calls for the all caps rule to be invoked) ... ONE example of a program or piece of legislation which we can fairly define as redistributionist, socialist, Marxist, etc. which Obama has supported and McCain has opposed. Just ONE.

    I put it to you that they have BOTH spent their careers supporting a redistributionist system, and by your definitions I'm sure, are BOTH Marxists and socialists. In fact the only difference I see is that McCain has been doing it for over twenty years longer than Obama, who is still comparatively wet behind the ears in his redistribution career. McCain, by your standards, is a life long socialist, Marxist bastard.

    How about state level programs? True, they are not under the care of the Fed directly, but national leaders should demonstrate their leadership in influencing the state. Has he actively fought to eliminate welfare in his state? (No fair saying he wants to "reform" it. They both do.) Has he fought to eliminate unemployment insurance? (It's mandatory and some people pay into it their entire careers without ever drawing on it, while others collect their money regularly.) Has McCain called for the elimination of any and all social safety nets our nation decided to put in place? Or are all of his Arizona constituents too much of a bunch of greedy, commie red, socialist Marxist bastards to give up their gravy train privileges?

    He hasn't done any of that? Then guess what? He's a redistributionist, just like Obama, just like George W. Bush, just like Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnel and all the rest of those socialist Marxist bastards on Capitol Hill. So while you continue hyperventilating about how Obama is a redistributionist, the rest of us will get on with evaluating the actual issues involved in this election.
  • GeorgeSorwell
    Unfortunately, Sen. McCain is still clucking about it out on the trail and his supporter in both the media and the blogosphere continue the chant. It makes for some good sound bites, but I’m afraid that it’s high time to remind some of my conservative, McCain-supporting friends of some uncomfortable facts.


    When this is all over, you will retain your credibility.
  • I resent your implication that I had any credibility to begin with.
  • JMattM
    I find this interesting:

    “We’re set up, unlike other states in the union, where it’s collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs.”
    - Sarah Palin in the New Yorker
  • DLS
    Have you seen Obama's _tax_plan_, and the details, and who benefits, how, therefrom?

    Is McCain perfect? Of course not. The GOP is often Dems Lite when it comes to spending (yes, including pork-barrel spending).

    Are the states perfect? Of course not. Look at California, _already_ squawking to Washington about coming for assistance "if needed."

    Is the issue that McCain is as bad as Obama? No, for McCain is not as bad as Obama, just as the GOP have not been as bad as the Dems (in this regard; "bad" has several meanings), when it comes to redistribution of income and vote-buying through entitlements of many kinds, yes, which have been supported for ages by many in the GOP...

    *** WHICH IS NOT THE KEY POINT ***. It's obvious that the Dems are more ambitious in this regard and that McCain may appear weak, but he nevertheless has a legitimate gripe, whether you like it or not. It is as I accurately have described it, nonsense-free (which the "creative" can restate in any misleading way they choose): It's a case of McCain doing too little, too late, in this campaign once more.

    Is either side perfect? No, of course not. (The GOP is often hypocritical, something a number of us have long criticized -- they have avoided being a true alternative to the Dems.) But the real question, of course, is, is Obama's tax plan and redistributionist mentality deserving of criticism? Of course. There _is_ and remains a matter of degree -- at least if one takes the time and can understand this.
  • Nice try, DLS, but no sale. You don't get to drop that turd in the chat bowl and walk away without answering the question. I didn't bring up the "redistributionist" thing, your candidate did and he seems to be hanging his entire election hopes on it now. I will FREELY ADMIT that Obama, as a member of both the Illinois State government and a US Senator is a redistributionist. And since you seem to be defining the terms, then fine... he's a "Marxist / Socialist." There you go. Now you're up to bat.

    Give us ONE, DLS. Just ONE. Give us ONE government program which can fairly be defined as redistributionist which Obama has supported and McCain has actively fought to eliminate and provide us with a link. If you do, I won't just admit you are right here. I will make a brand new column with the title "Obama is more of a Marxist than McCain." You have my word. Just give us one and Ill give you the "matter of degrees" argument fair and square.

    If you can't do it, please let go and stop trying to use the broad brush strokes to repeat GOP talking points and claim that somehow Obama is MORE of a redistributionist than McCain.
  • DLS
    Will you calm down? For Christ's sake...

    Obama's income tax reform plan is redistributionist (because of the rebates), and it's you, not I, who have been using the term "Marxist" and "socialist" whereas I have used the correct word as well and addressed the correct concept here (free of emotional excess), namely, redistributionism.

    McCain is opposed to Obama's tax plan and its redistributionist elements (late in the campaign, _because_ of these elements, in large part, which is the key issue here).

    He is not _my_ candidate (another mistake by others, rather than by me, in this case a wildly mistaken assumption). I am addressing Obama's plan and redistribution (which we see not only in the examples others have provided already, but in the case of highway funds, with innumerable strings attached; with revenue sharing for schools within states; with revenue sharing by pro sports leagues, which also feature other market-interventionist elements).

    It is _others_ who (illogically) leap to the misuse of "Marxist" and "socialist" here; I do not do this.

    I also have noted some other problems here, which perhaps are behind the emotional excess (such as the misuse of the Palin-anchor depiction when describing something McCain is doing on his own)...

    [sigh] Touchy, touchy. [scowl]
  • I'll agree that rebates are yet another redistributionist element, no doubt. McCain's plan is still a progressive tax system which taxes some individuals more than others and does give multiple tax credits to people (per child, for only one example) which redistributes the wealth of the higher income people to lower income people.

    Try again? They are both redistributionists on taxes.
  • StockBoySF
    Is McCain really as much a redistributionist as appearances suggest? After all McCain is for reducing taxes, but believes in government bailouts. McCain plans on funding his increases through increased deficits- so McCain is really trying to reign in redistribution. So it's up to future generations to decide how to pay for McCain's spending, which may end up being an increase in taxes, but that's someone else's plan at that point. :)

    And if it sounds ass backwards, there is a simple explanation: it is.
  • StockBoySF
    Jazz, I love the title of your post! It's perfect on several different levels.
  • SteveK
    DLS asks: "Have you seen Obama's _tax_plan_, and the details, and who benefits, how, therefrom?"

    Yes DLS I think most regular TMV readers have. I've even posted a link to a very easy to read graph of it here a couple of times but I'll do it again for your benefit:

    Obama and McCain Tax Proposals
  • StockBoySF
    SteveK, thanks for the link. I hadn't seen it before- it's great to have the graph!
  • DLS
    Wow -- this is already relegated to the second "page."

    Steve K. -- thanks.

    * * *

    "Try again? They are both redistributionists on taxes."

    Oh, and the GOP as well as the Dems have enjoyed the tax _rebate_ game in the past, it seems. The point is, Obama's plan is worse than McCain's in this regard. I can't refute that McCain is not spotless. (In fact, McCain has a poor reputation among conservatives as well as partisan Republicans and the tension held in check since the convention will be released after next week, when McCain and the GOP likely lose big, and it won't be pretty, even though the problems don't lie only with McCain but with the GOP and with conservatism, too.)

    Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to raise fine points and detract from your own position here; I just wanted to make it clear that there are distinctions to be made, and they encompass the two candidates' desires and their parties' plans as well as the details of the tax plans themselves. Note to others: it's not repeating GOP talking points to note what is obvious fact, much less to criticise the GOP candidate and the GOP, as I have done numerous times.
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