Please Excommunicate Me

Pete,

The following (with the rainbow triangle on its sign at Forsyth & Big Bend),

http://www.bethel-ucity.org/asp/default.asp

has a Religious Left affiliation (see below) You might find this to be an antidote.

http://www.lcna.org/

There was a massive study of religion in America last year, I think. Perhaps from Pew Charitable Trusts? Apparently some 1/3 of Catholics in the U.S. are lapsed Catholics (if that makes sense). Numbers are similarly high among various Protestant churches. The denominational fluidity in contemporary America is enormous and largely unprecedented in Europe and the U.S. It's not clear how unusual this is on a world scale where many religions don't have the same institutional nature as much of Christianity does. Traditional Chinese religious traditions were a mix of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism for centuries. Much Japanese tradition was a mix of Shinto and different Buddhist notions. Even Islam which one thinks of as very doctrinaire doesn't have the same institutional hierarchy as Christianity at all.

Every since the pedophile crisis and their forbidding birth control, the majority of Catholics just consider the Catholic bishops as silly old men. Most Catholics realize that these guys live a fairly well-to-do existence, and don't really understand the problems of modern America. Most Catholics figure that the bishops just babble away like crazy uncles.

Pacatrue makes an interesting point, in situating your dilemma in a larger ecumenical frame.

Asian Buddhists of my acquaintance look down on American Buddhism, which is a largely a la carte affair. In terms of most religions, I think Americans like to pick-and-choose this or that element from a larger spiritual system.

While heresy and apostasy is widespread in most religions, these are often communal rejections. In America, it seems this is more atomistic, with individuals deciding to pick and choose what they follow.

Islam is non-hierarchical, but probably the most resistant to secularism of all religions in the world I suspect. We have seen in the Middle East how it has deep antibodies to modernity, in a way Hinduism or even Buddhism in India and East Asia do not possess.

Pete, why not just accept that you are a sinner and you are going to Hell? It can be liberating. I suspect you will find many folks from TMV sharing your fiery pit with you. . . for ALL ETERNITY!!! :)

A funny thing seems to be happening. Perhaps we as a nation are finally reaching middle ground on this issue. A lifelong Unitarian and now in my seventh decade of life, it feels as if I have been pro-choice forever, but my views concerning the scope of allowable abortions have been evolving for several years.

I still believe that the mother must always be offered the right to terminate her pregnancy during the first trimester, but have come to the conclusion that there should be "good cause" in justification of a third trimester termination. I'm still working on my personal definition of "good cause", and haven't yet firmed up my position on abortions during the second trimester (or, to be more accurate, abortions after the point at which out-of-womb viability is possible).

What's most interesting and hopeful is to find myself, at 67 years, still evolving on this issue. And if I - a diehard feminist democrat (mother and grandmother) - am changing my position, then who else?

If there was ever an opportunity in the history of the US to rid us all of the abortion issue, it would have been the last six-plus years of Republican Rule. Both houses of congress, the executive branch, and a very inventive legal team (I mean we've been able to justify a war, torture, the wiretapping things, etc etc) with a majority of Catholic Christian supreme court justices--yet it didn't happen. Maybe it's true, that the majority of Americans want this issue left alone, but that it is continually used as a wedge issue during political seasons to rally the base and nothing more.

Andrew Sullivan yesterday referenced a site that encouraged him that I thought was worth a read on a variety of issues, including these "wedge" issues:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10...

"Now that my son is out of the parochial hold and off to a (very) secular college, I don’t feel compelled to continue the dodging dance."

Regarding religious choices, Pete: lots to think about. It does now fascinate me that we modify our behaviors and beliefs in such ways that we think our kids will benefit by, and when they are "safely out of earshot" so to speak we can let down our guard and really live our convictions. How do you think they might benefit if we were honestly living out our convictions in their presence? This is not a personal criticism, it's just a reflection of human nature and I'd be curious to know your thoughts, since this was a religious post.

A very well written, moderate article. I think the last paragraph is something more people should think about. Just statistically, the places that give the easiest access to safe and legal abortions also have the lowest rates of abortion, the reason being that these same communities also give easy access to affordable birth control, educate the teenage populations on how and why to use it, and generally don't play into the major memes concerning sex that our society seems to believe as true. (For example: sex before marriage is always bad, teenage boys can't control their hormones, sex is commodity given by women to men, etc, etc).

The extremists on the Left exploit abortion more than those on the Right, and that is shameful as well as disgusting. The rest of us don't care much at all about it, even if we have had experiences related to it, and those of us who know our (real) system of government know it shouldn't even be a federal issue at all, but reserved to the state and local governments to legislate according to how they see fit to do so. I'm not even inclined to treat what the Bush administration has done once or twice as a serious social-conservative policy agenda item (restricting birth control assistance and information; extending citizenship and with it, rights, to the unborn) but rather as a sop to the Religious Right and specifically as a cynical political ploy to keep those people voting reliably, Republican.

To follow up a bit more on Marlowe's comments, Pete's post is indeed rather "typical" of an American approach to religion compared to a European one. In America, people rather commonly can attend a Methodist church at one point in their lives, Episcopal at another, Catholic at another, etc. In some European countries at least, when people find themselves in fundamental conflict with their denomination, it seems they often don't find another church but instead become "secular". Secularism is much higher in, for instance, France, while changing denominations is comparatively rare. You're in or you're out. In the U.S., you're just in somewhere else.

From the bishop's commentary: "....we must chose to mitigate the evil by choosing the candidate who is less permissive of abortion."

If one were to ask a single question and base one's actions on that, then the bishop's logic applies.

But Obama has said our goal should be to have policies in place which encourage women to make pro-life decisions.... So Obama may be more permissive towards abortions, but he also believes in policies which lower abortions. Part of that may be looking at the root causes (and education) and part of that is encouraging programs which make it easier for a woman to take care of her child, whether it's through workplace daycare programs, etc. To me it's clear that a candidate who supports programs that encourage life and the well-being of humans is the better candidate to endorse. The GOP these days would probably consider such programs to be welfare... (and the programs could be run by the gov't, a company or non-profit).

Marlowecan: "Pete, why not just accept that you are a sinner and you are going to Hell? It can be liberating. I suspect you will find many folks from TMV sharing your fiery pit with you. . . for ALL ETERNITY!!! :)"

LOL! Thanks, Marlowecan. No one is perfect and I think the process of striving to live a better life is what is most important. For Christians that means starting with the Ten Commandments. Other religions have other tenets. If we do make mistakes, then we ask for forgiveness. I think being human means being imperfect, but we have the knowledge and ability to lead better lives through choice. It's how and what we choose that is most important.

Dear Pete:
as a Catholic but more so as a mother and grandmother, I understand the desire to shelter a child in a parochial school setting during formative years wherein there is likely to be ongoing conversation about spirit and soul and golden rule and good works; I think of that as a parent's trying to fulfill safe passage for a beloved child on a cultural river 'out there' that is filled with snipers who mean to distort and maim.

I think that was good Pete to send your child there. I appreciate the instinct and the follow through, and in many cases of parents who so choose, the sacrifices financially and otherwise.

I am sorry this man is the last sawblade on the sheaves. I do note what you note: sometimes a decent and warm parish fellow when 'making' bishop or cardinal seems to turn into a different person, far more politicial rather than holy, and perhaps, that is why they are chosen; to defend the Pope; sort of like the VP candidates, only in Catholicism they're called prelates. For certain, there seem to be too many golden-ringed and watered silk kings and princes in the mix. But, I digress.

Knowing you as I do, following your writing heart, I know whatever nourished you even a little from the deeper ideals carried by Catholic social justice teachings or any of the magisterium, you will carry this with you, along with all the other good works in you prior to conversion, as you find your way elsewhere now.

We may go to different temples, Pete, but we're all still walking along together.

I feel sad, but I understand.

this comes with peace,
dr.e,

As soon as a priest is elevated beyond the parish level, he ceases to be a shepherd, and becomes instead a fox.

Archangel:

"...the desire to shelter a child in a parochial school setting during formative years wherein there is likely to be ongoing conversation about spirit and soul and golden rule and good works..."

I guess what I'd add, now that I've evolved from my prior "belief" system, is that those virtues of wholesomeness, charity and love can be taught wherever one is in life, in light of, or despite the reigning societal religion.

"...I think of that as a parent's trying to fulfill safe passage for a beloved child on a cultural river 'out there' that is filled with snipers who mean to distort and maim."

This is at least what I was taught the whole of my religious life, that "the out-there world" was antagonistic, even hostile to our better spiritual selves.

However, I no longer regard those who have different worldviews, or those from different cultures (those members of that "cultural river") as "snipers" or as necessarily intent on distortion or maiming. [As a matter of fact, I'd hesitate to use a "parochial-school setting" as a particularly good example of a safe-haven for many children.]

The culture is what we choose to make of it. Politically free secular cultures are presently doing quite nicely in terms of happiness, longevity, safety, health and security.

I understand the intent of the post from archangel, and admire and respect it--I just wanted to clarify some of the content from a different perspective.

As a non-Catholic (from a mostly non-religious family) who went to a Catholic HS I am glad of my experiences and exposure to Catholicism. My favorite classes were theology classes where we debated morality, religion, etc. I think more people should go to Catholic (or other religious schools) because the education is solid and the religious debates are good exercise for considering others' viewpoints.

I understand the desire to shelter a child in a parochial school setting during formative years wherein there is likely to be ongoing conversation about spirit and soul and golden rule and good works; I think of that as a parent's trying to fulfill safe passage for a beloved child on a cultural river 'out there' that is filled with snipers who mean to distort and maim.

Allow me an anecdote from my personal experience. I attended parochial schools for the first six years (also college, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of this story). In my fifth year (grade 5) my teacher, one Sister Nicholas Mary, was quite frankly a sociopath with a strong authoritarian streak and an even stronger distaste for boys. That's my interpretation, at least. Anyway, I readily admit I wasn't exactly a saint. But I wasn't exactly a criminal, either. For whatever reason, though, we mixed like oil and water. Over time it got to the point where she was blaming me for the most ridiculous things. I'd go home with swollen, sometimes purple knuckles. Okay fine. That I could take. But then she started on my friends. One day she made one kid sit in a trash can all afternoon because, she said, he was talking to me while we were in line. He wasn't even close to me. And she didn't punish me (remarkably enough, though I wish she had), just him. He was devastated with embarrassment, and I was livid. Many times I went to my parents, but for whatever reason I could never convince them about what was going on. By the end of the year I had essentially no friends left (at least none that would admit it), and I started harboring very bad thoughts about her. It made me very angry.

It was small school in a small town, and just starting up at that -- every grade consisted of one classroom. 6th grade went okay. The nun teaching it was strict, but generally fair. I became an altar boy and got to know and respect the parish priests (there were two). Then I found out that the 7th grade teacher was going to be... Sister Nicholas Mary. I pleaded with my parents not to make me go back there. I pleaded with the priests to look into that Nicholas Mary bitch (although I didn't phrase it in quite that way, that's what I was thinking). Also, I had grown a lot between 5th and 7th grades, so by that time I was bigger than her. I told my parents, seriously and in no uncertain terms, that I feared for the inevitable -- I was convinced that I was going to hurt her if she tried to hurt me again.

Something worked. My parents decided to send me to public school. I felt like I had been reprieved. But I was still angry. Maybe it was hormones, or maybe it was Sr. Nicholas Mary. I suspect it was a combination. But either way, it took me years to really calm down. And one incident early on I blame very much on her and the rage she fostered in me. Some kid who fashioned himself a "greaser" (we alternately referred to them as hoods or ditties, I don' t know what other terms to use -- proto-biker maybe? lol!) apparently decided to test the Catholic kid. He was a grade older, and took it upon himself to tease me relentlessly. I put up with it for a while, but then he made the mistake of doing something, stealing a pen as I recall. Anyway, he touched me, then started making a big show of it -- just like Sr. Nicholas. I went nuts. I dropped him with the first punch, then just started kicking him and jumping on him until someone had the sense to pull me off. Fortunately I didn't do him any serious harm. And fortunately there wasn't a teacher around at the time. By the time one showed up no one knew anything, and he was too embarrassed to say anything either. He just slipped and hit his head on a desk or something. It was both a very cathartic and an enlightening experience.

But it probably also didn't help either. All of a sudden I was okay with the greaser crowd. So after that I had lots of influences upon which to rationalize subsequent reprobate behavior which are hard to dissociate from each other. And it's not like I was ever a huge trouble-maker, or ever went looking for trouble. It's just that I had a fairly short fuse. And I certainly blame her not at all as a proximal cause of the parking lot rumbles or the bar fights I participated in. By that time, at least, her face wasn't popping up in my mind every time I threw a punch or swung a bat or a chain. I blame that all on myself. But I do wonder how my experience would have been different had she not been a part of it. Heck, I used to stay after school to help my 4th grade teacher, Sister Veronica Mary, clean the chalk boards and the floors and stuff (I walked to school, so it wasn't a big deal). On a couple of occasions she took my tie, pulled it up over my chin, and used it to bang the back of my head into the concrete wall behind me. But hey, at least I gave her reason. Like I said, I wasn't a saint. But she was fair. Getting punished for doing wrong is one thing. Getting punished for something you didn't do or had no hand in, is another. And getting your friends punished for something you or they had nothing to do with... that's the worst. That's sick.

Now, having said all that, I also want to say that most of my experiences with the Catholic Church have been positive. Most of the priests I've known over the years (and they have been many, in many capacities) I've found to be very thoughtful, and most of those very reasonable. On the other hand, I'm inclined to agree with AustinRoth in the sense that bishops tend to be a different breed altogether. Nuns as well. And what's weird is, the nuns that manage to climb the hierarchy (such as it is -- it's a very sexist set-up) tend to be more thoughtful and tolerant. It's their minions that tend to be goofy. With priests it's the other way around.

dear jeff pickens: just to add to your observations, I can only speak from personal experience and coming from immigrant and refugee family who were reviled by the greater culture close in and 'out there' for our entire lives and daily.

The sodalities of the Catholic church and outreach and protections offered by the church were in no way duplicated by the public school culture. Quite the opposite and in the extreme. I think others from other generations and backgrounds may have had other and kinder experiences with the outer culture than we did.

I also have to agree with ricorun that there were some deadly ill teachers in parochial school, as there were in public school; they were rare in either setting, but harmful and again, it was a time when, at least where we lived, there was no child protection agency in the rural outback, and adults often unthinkingly felt children had done something to deserve being beaten and humiliated.

Those painful harms would seldom fly today, thank all angels and saints and awakened souls for awakening.

One of the things I learned sadly was that what was preached in the provincial outback where I grew up was that we ought submit... but by midage I was attending a city church that was of the middlle class and the preaching was that we ought own the world. That forked tongue preaching is still one of the saddest to my sense of justice.

just my two cents worth.
dr.e

Jeff Pickens -- Thanks for your concluding questions about the merits of our approach to "sheltering" our son. Those questions may very well inspire a new post, somewhere down the line. Until then, while I think we rightly established "calm waters" for our son during his earliest, formative years, later on -- particularly as he reached high school -- we had far more open discussions about what we believed, didn't, where those beliefs varied versus the Church's teachings, etc. We certainly weren't perfect parents -- who is? -- but given that our son has grown up to be a relatively open-minded/free thinker, that suggests to me we struck a respectable balance between what we discussed with him, and when, and how.

Pabel--a "thank you" right back. The post was personally important to me,
as I more recently sort of "de-converted" from a lifelong belief system, and
I'm pondering these same issues as my son begins high-school, with the
additional challenge including the fact that we live in a very southern,
"Bible belt" region in Texas that would frown quite heavily on any
free-thinking being done outside of the fold.

I congratulate you for having a successful, free-thinking son and hope and
aspire to allow my own to have an opportunity for that same free-thought,
inquiry, and hopefully a lifelong passion for learning and a continual
wonder for the things that we can know in this world.

All respect,
Jeff Pickens

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Jeff -- Amen to that. Good luck!