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Let’s Talk About Bill Ayers for a Moment

Over a number of years in the blogging game, my favorite Chicago columnist has been John Kass. We exchanged some e-mails in 2005 about earthworms, (I won’t go into it now) but he’s always struck me as one of the truly genuine observers of politics in Chi-Town. Some may consider him “one of those conservatives” and might assume that he has an ax to grind with Obama, but I’ve always found him to just be somebody willing to point out the bloody oil in the Windy City political machine, which is almost entirely controlled by Democrats. (At times I still wonder how he’s managed not to contract a sudden case of lead poisoning over the years for his various investigations and revelations.) Today, my friend Ed Morrissey took a look at a column by Kass regarding the perceived normalcy or “main stream” status of Ayers in Chicago society.

John Kass tries to explain how unrepentant domestic terrorists like William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn could be considered “mainstream”. It takes a healthy dose of The Chicago Way, but also a healthy dose of infiltration by some of Ayers’ old radical compatriots into the Daley Machine. One of Ayers’ staunch defenders in Chicago, Marilyn Katz, was part of the same SDS that launched the Weather Underground — and who now works on Team Obama

Let me share with you a small portion of the Kass interview with Katz which set my mind to churning.

“What Bill Ayers and [former Black Panther, now U.S. Rep.] Bobby Rush . . . did 40 years ago has nothing to do with [the presidential campaign],” Katz was quoted as saying in the Chicago Sun-Times in April. “[Ayers] has a national reputation. He lectures at Harvard [University] and Vassar [College].”

First of all, allow me to share my internal response when the subject of Ayers and Obama is brought up by McCain supporters such as Ed. It’s a muddle of confusion, guilt and long pauses. The initial response is to say, “Oh… well… of course! I can’t condone a relationship with an unrepentant terrorist! That’s un-American!” And it is a very uncomfortable subject, isn’t it? Ayers escaped punishment through (valid) legal technicalities for very violent actions. He came out as recently as this decade saying that he not only didn’t regret it, but wished they had done more! How could I not condemn anyone who would have any sort of relationship with this man and fail to bolt from the room, grabbing some pitchforks and torches as they went?

(Sorry if this is rather long, but there’s plenty more here.)

Then there’s a part of my ancient self that that thinks back to the bad old days. I can still vividly remember my sister being arrested for blocking traffic and obstructing public affairs while protesting the Vietnam War. She didn’t blow anything up or kill anyone. She just carried some signs and wouldn’t get out of the way when the police told her to.

How many of us got really angry back then? How many of us screamed ourselves hoarse along with Neil Young, chanting “FOUR DEAD IN O-HI-O?” Then again, most of us didn’t blow anything up or kill anyone. But many of us kind of understood what the perpetrators were thinking, didn’t we?

This brings us back to the quote regarding Bobby Rush. For those not familiar, here’s a wiki bio of the man, and here is a conservative, Right wing analysis of his various sins. Rush has been a member of Congress since 1993 serving the Illinois First Congressional District. In the bad old days, he was a member of the Black Panthers and did six months in the Crowbar Hotel on an illegal weapons conviction and was a deserter from the Army. While perhaps not convicted of tossing any bombs, he certainly seems to be a radical cut from the same cloth, no?

How could any person of good conscience sit in the same room with Rush? How could they work together on some board or such? How could somebody such as … oh, just for an example, let’s say John McCain… serve in the same branch of our Federal Government with such a person and not storm out, refusing to be associated with them for the last fifteen years? How could Sarah Palin agree to serve on the same ticket with a man who served alongside Mr. Rush for all these years without protest? As Kass points out, he was commonly referred to as the Minister of Defense for the Black Panthers. How many crimes was he not convicted of beyond the illegal weapons charges? I don’t know. Maybe it was just so far in the past. Maybe they don’t currently have any outstanding warrants for their arrest. Perhaps we just understand that people did things back then which may have been beyond the pale for most of us, but we just sort of understand what was driving them.

Ayers seems to be from the same class. He never did time for his crimes, but the legal system took a shot at it and he got off scot free. As he aged, apparently he took to less violent courses of action. And yet our own Shaun Mullen recently revealed that he used his own home to give shelter to some of Ayers’ associates in the Weather Underground back in the bad old days. Shall we all shun him and refuse to write here at TMV with this unrepentant terrorist sympathizer? Shall I refuse to talk to Shaun or have him on my radio show again? Somehow I’m just not feeling the outrage.

I don’t agree with the violent course of action Bill Ayers and his associates chose back then. But I also have to go back to the question of whether or not I should shun anyone who associated with Ayers many years later. Sorry. No sale here.

  • kritt11
    Well, I have brought this up on other threads -- but it bears repeating. Ayers proposal was chosen by a foundation set up by a prominent conservative- Walter Annenberg. Maybe he didn't really pick him personally, but he at least knew or should have known that Ayers' proposal had been chosen. He gave about 50 million dollars so that this radical's education proposal could be implemented. I'm guessing that he was mainstream enough to be accepted by the Board-- because none of them walked out. I'm guessing that his ideas couldn't have been too radical-- or why would his proposal have been chosen in the first place???

    I also made some points that McCain had some unsavory relationships himself- first with Frank Keating and that later he appeared on Gordon Liddy's radio show. Now I didn't hear anyone saying that there was something wrong with doing so---and Liddy also was unrepentant. He described once how he was prepared to carry out an order to kill journalist Jack Anderson- who at the time was embarassing Nixon.
    Should we question McCains' judgment? After all he was an adult when both of these men committed their crimes- whereas Obama was in 2cnd grade and not even in the mainland US.
  • whatfreshhell
    By the time Obama met Bill Ayers, it's clear Ayers was regarded as a respectable citizen, even by conservatives.

    In 1995, Bill Ayers (with two others) won the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and was awarded $49.5 million dollars by the conservative Annenberg Foundation. The Foundation had been set up by Walter Hubert Annenberg - who had been appointed as the US Ambassador to the United Kingdom by President Nixon and awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Reagan. The cheque for $49.5M was presented at a ceremony in Chicago by Wallis Annenberg, daughter of the late Ambassador Annenberg and his wife Leonore and the current VP of the Annenberg Foundation.

    In 1997, the City of Chicago awarded Ayers its Citizen of the Year Award for his work on the Annenberg Challenge Project.

    Obama served on the founding Board of Directors of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge project, set up 1995. The project dealt with the reform of public schooling, as required by the Annenberg Foundation.

    If Obama was "palling around" with the unrepentant terrorist Bill Ayers, so were the directors of the Annenberg Foundation and the following other people who, like Obama, served on the same CAC board with Ayers:

    Patricia Albjerg Graham, currently on the Board of Directors of Apache Corporation - the Texas oil and gas corporation and a professor of education history at Harvard University.

    Stanley O Ikenberry, former President of the University of illinois.

    Arnold R Weber, former President of Northwestern University and the University of Colorado. Weber has served on the boards of many corporations including Tribune Co., Burlington Northern Santa Fe Inc., PepsiCo Inc., John Deere & Company, Aon Corp. and Inland Steel.

    Ray Romero, vice-president and general counsel of Ameritech.

    Susan Crown, daughter of Lester Crown, "perennial member of the Forbes 400 list".

    Scott C. Smith, president, CEO and publisher of the Chicago Tribune; former chairman of the South Florida Annenberg Challenge.

    Susan Blankenbaker Noyes, daughter of Republican former Indiana state senator Virginia Murphy Blankenbaker; goddaughter of Patricia Albjerg Graham.

    The current president, chairman and sole director of the Annenberg Foundation is Ambassador Annenberg's widow, Leonore Annenberg. Leonore Annenberg was made Chief of Protocol of the United States by President Reagan. She is a McCain supporter.

    [All of the above is on the public record and easily accessible via Google and Wikipedia.]
  • As I said many times before, I come from a family of radicals. Both parents, Black Panthers in the "bad old days". A grandfather and great uncle, members of the Deacon for Defense in the "bad old days". And two current uncles, members of the Nation of Islam currently. Not to mention a gaggle of long time family friends who were former Black Panthers also.

    Now I was born into the mix. Nevertheless, some of my parents' friends are mine also. I appreciate them in their various capacities. And I will never EVER shun them because they have helped shaped me. Now I'm much, much closer to my associations than Obama. So like you Jazz, no sale here.

    These associations may have carried more weight if Obama was 62 years old and ran with Bill Ayers back in the "bad old days".
  • StockBoySF
    I am always troubled whenever someone has "'terrorist" associations.... I wonder if that person, too is a terrorist. So when the stuff about Ayers came out I wanted to know if Obama might be harboring any anti-American and/or terrorist sympathies.

    I pretty much came to the same conclusion that Jazz, "whatfreshhell", and others have come to. Obama is not a terrorist, does not have terrorist sympathies and is not anti-American.

    To use the logic to in making the Ayers and Obama connection, one would have to also unequivocally conclude that Annenberg funded a terrorist (making Annenberg a terrorist) and that all Annenberg's associates, including Reagan are terrorist sympathizers. As whatfreshhell pointed out, many leaderrs in education and business are associated with Ayers the same way Obama is... through the Annenberg Challenge.

    It is in this current life of Ayers that Obama has worked with him. McCain insists that Obama come clean on his relationship with Ayers. I don't know what else Obama can say. I don't think McCain will be happy with anything Obama says about his relationship with Ayers until Obama says that he (Obama) is a terrorist and he and Ayers have secretly been plotting to blow up the federal government for the past ten years....

    Unbelievable.
  • pacatrue
    Just FYI, FactCheck has posted a rather lengthy article on the whole topic. Hope it hasn't already been linked too often.
  • JSpencer
    Great post Jazz. Having lived through those turbulent times I realize how difficult is must be for many younger folks to understand just what they were really like. Many of us were in involved in various protests at the time and rightly so, but bombing is something that everyone I knew felt was over the line. When I think of bombing though, I think of all the bombing that took place in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos not the very rare occurrances here in the US. Ayers was wrong in what he did, but so were many people in the govt. and private industry at the time, people who were responsible (unlike Ayers) for the deaths of a great many innocent people and who were never so much as slapped on the wrist. I think about Robert McNamara for example. Think of all the blood on his hands. The point with regard to Ayers is that now, today, after all this time, he is a distraction, not a player, not an influence on Obama, only a tool to be used in politics. Time to move on.
  • RememberNovember
    That's the problem with attributing todays value sets to ones that were in existence 30, 40 years ago.

    There were people back then doing things that made Ayers look like a cub scout by comparison, and some of them worked for the Government. Not just hearbut abroad.


    What about the Conservative connections to Unrepentant Ex-Felon G. Gordon Liddy?
  • RememberNovember
    Again, Ex Post Facto associations are thin ice.

    I can only imagine what mob informants would crawl out of the woodwork had Giuliani been the top of the ticket.
    There is the Chicago way, and then there is the NY way....
  • rfyork
    More than anything, one needs to keep an historical perspective. It should not bear mentioning, but in our own history several rather prominent men would be terrorists by today's government:

    John Adams
    Samuel Adams
    John Hancock
    Patrick Henry
    Frances Marion
    Henry Ward Beecher
    Samuel Chase
    Need I go on?

    In addition, what Ayers and Rush did and believed 40 years ago has clearly changed. The very fact of their participation in mainstream culture and politics bespeaks this change.

    I'm 64. I'm as progressive now as I was at 24. But, I was taught early and often to examine myself and my beliefs. That entailed listening to others; their religious beliefs, their political convictions and their cultural prejudices. I have changed dramatically in 40 years. I am more engaged politically, do more volunteer work (I have more time, which helps) and have become more outspoken.

    Is it so difficult for conservatives to understand that people change? Weren't many of them liberals? I would be willing to bet a lot that a careful examination of John McCain's past would identify some rather unsavory associations.

    Rick York
  • Rudi
    What has failed mention is that Ayers and Dorhn were charged as "terrorists", went underground, and the US DOF dropped most charges because of government misconduct. If Ayers was so EVIL, why wasn't some trumped up charge found to convict this "Hitler or Stalin". Neither Dorhn or Ayers ever faced a court or a jury of "JOe Six Pack". I wonder what the legal record of radical Black Panthers is on comparison?

    Why is G.G. Liddy forgiven after his prison time ended, but Ayers is still labelled as a terrorist for stupid crimes from the 1960's and early 1970's? If Liddy has reformed himself, why can;t Ayers?
  • kritt11
    Well, I was a teenager during those days- so a little young but I do remember the atmosphere-- and most college campuses had SDS members on them it was pretty common. I also remember a lot of talk about bringing down the "establishment" when Nixon was president-- the kids thought he was just as square as you could get- and seemed to really believe it was the only way to end the war. It was in vogue to have Mao Tse Tung's little red book and posters of Mao in your room. So, the times were very, very different. But, I would never condone bombings of any kind.
  • kritt11
    Rudi- exactly the point I was trying to make in my earlier comment.

    I was talked down by some of our more conservative commenters the other day-- because Liddy served his time. But by that standard what should we think of Karl Rove who never was held accountable for helping to out Plame or Scooter Libby who was judged guilty but will never have to serve?

    I thought we were supposed to be a country that believed in second chances--and that what Ayers transitioned to was a successful rehabilitation to a mainstream lifestyle. CS was complaining the other day that his educational ideas were far-left-fringe - but does anyone know what they actually were???
  • pacatrue
    Kritt, I have not researched Ayers' educational philosophy nor am I qualified to say what is left and what is right in that domain, but the FactCheck article I linked has a fair amount to say about the Annenberg Challenge itself, who backed it, and a few paragraphs about whether it is radical or not.
  • Pacatrue, the factcheck.org article was interesting, thanks. However, it seems to only address the questions of how close of an associate was Ayers to Obama, how accurate were various terms and phrases used by the McCain team, etc. (Which is the purpose of that site, so that.s fine.) My whole point in writing this, though, was to ask a slightly different question. The key aspect of GOP accusations regarding Obama and Ayers is that Ayers was a domestic terrorist who is "not repentant" for his acts and, as such, anyone who learns of his past and doesn't immediately flee the room any time Ayers enters, flatly refusing any association with such a horrible person, should be disqualified for consideration as president.

    Is this a fair bar for candidates to pass? I find the question difficult, but even if Obama were, in fact, "palling around" with Ayers, I'm having a hard time condemning him that harshly.
  • pacatrue
    I understand, Jazz. You happened to be the person to write on Ayers today, so I just wanted to provide the link for people as a roughly nonpartisan source. You were a victim of my inability to post my own entries and yet having a desire to share items periodically.

    :)
  • Gichin13
    This entire thing is a nonsequitor. The mere fact it was the Annenberg Foundation at the heart of this should end the topic given its founder's history, politics, gravitas and the like.

    In the midst of a potentially catastrophic economic meltdown, to see McCain get stuck on such a non-issue is almost unbelievable but sadly predictable as well.
  • kritt11
    The reality is, a rising politician meets all kinds of people in the course of his political life. I guess that the reason I'm interested in Ayers' educational philosophy is --- to see if it is in fact a radical one, and also to see if Obama's stated policies or voting pattern was influenced by it in any way.

    In all fairness, I do not see that McCain was affected by brushes with Keating or Liddy-- (after the initial offense with Keating of course). In fact, he seemed galvanized enough by the experience to sponsor a comprehensive bill which attempted to rein in that kind of activity. It would be nice if those on the right who are evaluating Ayers-Obama would go beyond "palling with terrorists" and look at actual influence.
  • SteveK
    Jazz said: "My whole point in writing this, though, was to ask a slightly different question. The key aspect of GOP accusations regarding Obama and Ayers is that Ayers was a domestic terrorist who is "not repentant" for his acts..."

    The statement, "Ayers was a domestic terrorist who is "not repentant" for his acts" is patently FALSE... The 'quote' (sic) the right keeps using is a snippet taken totally out of context. The ONLY thing Ayers said he wasn't repentant for was his opposition to the war in Vietnam... PERIOD.

    To quote DLS... "[sigh]"
  • Ricorun
    The Annenberg Foundation web site has a whole section on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. I've sifted through some of it, and nothing I've found suggests the project was "radical" in the bomb-throwing dirty stinkin commie hippie sort of way. Perhaps one could call it "radical" in the sense that it was an ambitious attempt to deconstruct a centrally controlled, top-down bureaucracy, and make it more responsive to the community. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I would think it is an approach conservatives would favor.

    Anyway, this Newsweek article (which I came across on the Annenberg site) I think does a pretty good job examining the issue.
  • CStanley
    I was out yesterday and missed this thread, so I'm not sure that most of the commenters are still reading. Kim brought up some previous comments I'd made, so I thought I would respond.

    Let's look at the factcheck piece...which boils down to dismissing any concerns about Ayers because he'd been accepted as mainstream.

    OK, so Mayor Daley says he's no longer a radical leftist and that is supposed to convince me?

    And an education journal describes the Annenberg project as mainstream and that dismisses any possibility that the project had a liberal agenda (Baltimore based education journals are hardly expected to have a centrist or conservative perspective, and what educators would be crazy enough to look a 50 million dollar gifthorse in the mouth??)

    Then there's mention of two Republicans involved- one of whom was the GOP governor at the time the grant was announced (yeah, I'm sure he was reading all of the proposal and Ayers writings on education, rather than responding to his state getting a huge grant that he could claim as a positive for education reform in his state- I'm sure it would have been politically quite popular for him to have said, "No thanks, we can't accept that grant because the project has an agenda other than improving academics for our kids." That would have gone over well, I'm sure.

    And one other board member is mentioned who is Republican and is supporting McCain. So we aren't to believe that someone can be moderate or conservative on some issues but OK with a liberal education project?

    I've already rebutted the stupid assertion about Annenberg himself- a foundation like that makes a grant offer on a broad goal, and that person then is not going to be the one who reads the proposals that are submitted so it's HIGHLY unlikely that Annenberg actually selected Ayers to be the leader of the Chicago branch of this project.

    As for Ayers himself, anyone who questions his radicalism should read some of his work, including recent writings and his speech praising Hugo Chavez. This is not someone who espouses mainstream politics, believe me.

    Obama was the leader of the CAC- the chair of the board. Ask yourself this- if this was a project that was a) successful and b) had goals that mainstream Americans would support, then why did Obama NEVER talk about his long involvement at the head of the project? It was never even mentioned in his two books, and he never brought it up as part of his resume.

    Ricorun- perhaps you might look at some sources that are a LITTLE bit more critical of CAC, rather than their own reporting of it and Newsweek (which has been completely in the tank for Obama?) As Joe G. says, it will not give you brain cancer to read other points of view instead of just trying to reinforce your own beliefs.

    As I've said repeatedly, for me it's not just the terrorist thing (although I can see why John McCain himself may be personally offended that Obama won't completely disown Ayers, as McCain was um, somewhat adversely affected by the actions of militant war protestors in the 70s. Would Obama not find it offensive if McCain really did have ties to George Wallace or someone of his ilk?)

    But aside from that, to me this is about Ayers' radicalism and what it says about Obama that he feels this person is mainstream- and the fact that Obama has been completely opaque about that by deflecting any attention given to this part of his past and other things that suggest a similar far left leaning on several issues (education being one of them.)
  • CStanley
    SteveK, nice try invoking context without providing any yourself (and then misstating it in your summary.)

    When asked point blank if he would again take part in bombing the Pentagon, he said "I would not want to rule it out."

    Even the quote that you claim is being misused says that he does not regret setting bombs- not as you claim, that he doesn't regret protesting the war.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=...
  • SteveK
    CStanley, Your link to a September 11, 2001 NYT article while ignoring Bill Ayers response to the NYT "Clarifying the Facts— a letter to the New York Times, 9-15-2001" seems at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest.

    Over the last few weeks you've tried to put words into the mouths of other TCV posters; intentionally ignored links to reputable sites that disprove your wing-nut conspiracy theories; and, when called on for your condescending smart ass posts you just melt into another thread without the courtesy of an explanation or reply.

    I don't mind debating issues but you seem to be going out of your way to shut down any reasonable discussion.
  • CStanley
    Gee, Steve, maybe if you had actually linked to that instead of misstating your point (which initially was that the quote itself that is taken from the 9/11 piece was being twisted by lack of context), then I could have commented about what you NOW claim your 'context' was instead of commenting about what you actually wrote?

    Now that you've presented this letter of rebuttal, all I can say is there's a discrepency between his initial statement (which specifically said he didn't regret the bombings) and his later ones presented here. It's not my place to judge how or why someone would contradict himself in that way, though I imagine the dates of the two statements might explain it (despite the fact that Obama didn't seem to notice the 9/11 article, a lot of other people did and you can bet that Ayers wasn't popular even among his friends for having been quoted on the day of the worst terrorist attack on US soil in our history as saying that he personally didn't regret his own history of terrorist acts.)

    If you're going to accuse me of twisting other people's arguments and 'melting away' (WTF? I'm one of the people who attempts to always come back to these discussions to answer questions that people have raised to my points- if I miss a few now and then, excuse me for not being at my computer 24-7), can you at least provide an example of when you feel that I've discussed in bad faith?

    What right wing-nut conspiracy theories do you feel that I adhere to?
  • CStanley
    Although some heads are probably going to explode, and some cootie desanitizing will need to take place among some readers here who decide to click through my link, I am going to point you to something that I believe indicates just how 'mainstream' Bill Ayers now is.

    http://sweetness-light.com/archive/communist-pa...

    Note that although I'm linking to a rightwing blog, the source of the material is easily verified as being a (very) leftwing source, and you can click through to see that nothing's been taken out of context or distorted (I'm actually only providing the link to the rightwing blog's post because it has highlighting which points directly to the point I'm trying to make.) Here you see Ayers' own words when he's speaking to members of the Communist party, and the way he characterizes his education goals is quite a bit different than what you'll read in the Chicago media, or in MSM sources.I don't know how else to reconcile all of his words and actions other than to assume that he does hold far left wing views, including a desire to indoctrinate schoolchildren with those views, but he speaks blatantly about it to far left people and uses much different language when talking about his goals to more mainstream people.

    Note that the main focus of this interview also disputes the theme that's been touted where Ayers is considered completely acceptable by the community in which he works. The main questions in the interview focuses on Ayers being disinvited from an important education summit because he was too radical even for the progressives who were organizing the meeting.

    Oh, and an extreme conflict of interest just crossed my radar screen when I realized that the Factcheck article that's being quoted in the main post here is from an organization that's full title is "Annenberg Political Fact Check." I don't know how I'd forgotten that before, but just realized that that organization *might* not be the most impartial in judging whether or not the goals and outcome of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge were mainstream and positive on balance (yes, it is the same Annenberg.)
  • SteveK
    CStanley says: "Gee, Steve, maybe if you had actually linked to that instead of misstating your point (which initially was that the quote itself that is taken from the 9/11 piece was being twisted by lack of context), then I could have commented about what you NOW claim your 'context' was instead of commenting about what you actually wrote?"

    CStanley, That's what I mean about you coming across as a condescending ass. Bill Ayers wrote his 'rebuttal' because IT WAS the author of the interview NOT Bill Ayers and NOT me who 'twisted' words. AND now... you are trying to twist mine.

    To quote GeorgeSorwell , "Stop putting your words into my mouth."

    -----------------

    CStanley said: "I don't know how I'd forgotten that before, but just realized that that organization *might* not be the most impartial in judging whether or not the goals and outcome of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge were mainstream and positive on balance (yes, it is the same Annenberg.)"

    Your argument that FactCheck.org is not to be trusted is ridiculous but... o.k. let's leave FactCheck out of the equation:

    FOXNEWS - Fact Check: Camps highlight foes' old associates

    "William Ayers: Forty years ago, Ayers was a founder of the Weather Underground, a radical group that claimed responsibility for a series of bombings, including nonfatal explosions at the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol. He was a fugitive for years with his wife, fellow radical Bernadine Dohrn. But after Ayers surrendered in 1980, the charges against him were dropped because of prosecutorial misconduct.

    Eventually, Ayers became a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago, specializing in education reform and even advising Chicago Mayor Richard Daley.

    In 1995, Ayers hosted a meet-the-candidate session at his home for Obama as he prepared to run for the state Senate. Later, the two worked with the same charity and social-service organizations in Chicago.

    Obama has tried to minimize his link to Ayers, at one point saying he was just a guy who lived in the same neighborhood. But while there was more to the relationship than that, there is no evidence they were ever close friends or that Ayers advised Obama on policy. Obama has denounced Ayers' violent activities, which occurred when Obama was a child."


    AND...

    CNN Factcheck
    "There is no indication that Ayers and Obama are now "palling around," or that they have had an ongoing relationship in the past three years. Also, there is nothing to suggest that Ayers is now involved in terrorist activity or that other Obama associates are."


    -----------------

    CStanley says: "I am going to point you to something that I believe indicates just how 'mainstream' Bill Ayers now is."

    After reading your link it appears that you believe that someone who believes in "Progressive Education is out of the mainstream.

    It seems that you don't have a clue to what the term "Progressive Education" means:

    Progressive Education is a pedagogical movement that began in the late nineteenth century and has persisted in various forms to the present. More recently, it has been viewed as an alternative to the test-oriented instruction legislated by the No Child Left Behind educational funding act.

    The term "progressive" was engaged to distinguish this education from the traditional curriculum of the 19th century, which was rooted in classical preparation for the university and strongly differentiated by socioeconomic level. By contrast, progressive education finds its roots in present experience, is more democratic in outlook, and looks forward.

    Most progressive education programs have these qualities in common:

    * Emphasis on learning by doing – hands-on projects, experiential learning
    * Integrated curriculum focused on thematic units
    * Strong emphasis on problem solving and critical thinking
    * Group work and development of social skills
    * Understanding and action as the goals of learning as opposed to rote knowledge
    * Collaborative and cooperative learning projects
    * Education for social responsibility and democracy
    * Integration of community service and service learning projects into the daily curriculum
    * Selection of subject content by looking forward to ask what skills will be needed in future society
    * De-emphasis on textbooks in favor of varied learning resources
    * Emphasis on life-long learning and social skills
    * Assessment by evaluation of child’s projects and productions
  • bvfsrw
    First of all, it is most refreshing to read comments that are not laced with profanity, ignorance, intolerance or bigotry. The comments I have read are truly filled with thought and reflection. I to, am in my 60's and remember the trying times of the 60's. These are not the same times and to make assertions about people based upon facts and circumstances that were vastly different is a disservice to both candidates.

    This presidential campaign truly has taken on a life of its own. At many levels, it appears that political parties and many politicians have a win at any cost mentality by trying to blame the other side for all of our troubles and misfortunes.
    The reality is that there is more than enough "blame" to go around and pointing the finger of blame at some one else does not solve any of our fundamental problems.

    To know a person is certainly not the same as adopting their beliefs or core values. In my lifetime, I certainly have met and associated with people who do not share my core beliefs but that does not make a proponent of their attitudes or beliefs. If anything, it has accomplished the opposite by making my own beliefs stronger. I would venture a guess that this true for many people.

    The fact that Mr. Ayers was a radical in the 60's is irrrelevant. What is relevant is what, if anything, Sen. Obama learned from the history of those turbulent times, how those lessons have made him a better person and presidential timber, as it were.

    The same is true for Sen. McCain. He to, has had some very interesting associations in his past. If "guilt" by association were to be the litmus test in selecting our leaders, then I doubt that there would be anyone qualified for the presidency.

    I don't expect either candidate to be the most brilliant person tha ever walked the face of the earth, but I do expect them to recognize their limitations and recruit the very best talent available to advise them. I also expect them to accept their advice and follow their recommendations and when necessary, to accept their criticism, for to do otherwise is to develop an "arrogance of ignorance."
  • CStanley
    Steve, I could quote you all kinds of things that describe ultraconservative movements in a favorable light too, but that doesn't mean that you'd be convinced that they are good for the country.

    As I've repeated over and over in these threads about Ayers...I REALIZE THAT PROGRESSIVE VOTERS MIGHT AGREE WITH THE AGENDA THAT OBAMA AND WILLIAM AYERS APPEAR TO SHARE REGARDING EDUCATION.

    But why is it that Obama never talks about those kinds of goals and instead the Annenberg project was swept under the rug until conservatives started asking about it, and when it is discussed it's watered down to buzz words like "small schools" which obscures the more political agenda of the proponents of those particular small schools?

    The answer is obvious- because although you and other progressives might agree with that agenda, a plurality of voters in the US probably do not. It would be the same if a GOP candidate had a history of pushing for controversial ultraconservative programs- that candidate might have to obscure the actual agenda that he/she had worked toward and sell it as more middle of the road than it really was.

    As for the brushup over comment tone and style, like nearly everyone else here I use sarcasm to make my points. When you agree with the people who do that, of course, I don't see you complaining about it but when it is used against you it stings apparently.

    And you missed my point about your 'context' comment...which was that you complained that conservatives purposely leave out the context, but you never provided any actual information about what that context was, and then you blasted me for ignoring the context which you didn't provide. I had never seen that rebuttal before (and in fairness, I'll say that probably the more conservative leaning sources that I spend more time at probably ignored it, and although I do read centrist and liberal sites as well I must have missed that.) So now that you showed it to me, I gave you my opinion. You take him at his word that his words are twisted, but unless that one quote was made up I don't see how he could have been misinterpreted because it indicates that he specifically said he didn't regret the bombings, not that he didn't regret the antiwar agitation itself. We'll just have to agree to disagree on how we interpret and reconcile his contradictory statements, as I still feel that the most likely explanation is that even he felt that he had to backtrack a bit after 9/11, and after people around him were probably horrified to see the juxtaposition of his initial interview statement against the bombing of the Pentagon on that day.

    As for Factcheck.org, they're not perfect but they're pretty good, and my statement wasn't an overall judgment of their impartiality in general- just pointing out the obvious conflict of interest. I'd expect that a group supported by a foundation would recuse themselves from giving verdicts on a project funded by the same foundation because of that obvious problem with objectivity.
  • CStanley
    I just clicked back on that comment by George Sorwell that you linked to, and I had not seen it before (again, I do try to keep tracking comment threads with ongoing discussions like this, but good grief, how can anyone possibly continue to do so indefinitely and in every case?) I'd suggest if you or George or anyone else really wants to take me to task for something, then add me to your Disqus tracking list so that I'll be alerted to any criticisms you have of my comments.

    In that particular case, I certainly would have appreciated the chance to 'go round and round' with George, as I don't see why my statement was 'putting words in his mouth'. If his statement about supporting McCain in the past doesn't imply that he feels that McCain is more likely to hold his party accountable, then I'd like to know what he actually meant by it.

    I will concede that I could have phrased that better, and put it in a question form instead of stating that as George's opinion, but I really didn't think it was a stretch.
  • CStanley
    Also, Steve, it's nice that you define the Progressive education movement the way you do, but if you read Ayers comments (in the link I provided as well as many other times when he's not talking in a mainstream venue) HE does not define it in the benign way that you do. He talks frequently about a very left wing political agenda, and the interview I linked to shows that there's far more wrangling for the control over the agenda of progressive education than you or many others are seeing.
  • CStanley
    testing (having trouble with disqus comments function)
  • GeorgeSorwell
    SteveK--

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices!!

    I will concede that I could have phrased that better, and put it in a question form instead of stating that as George's opinion, but I really didn't think it was a stretch.


    Even whe she admits she does it, she goes right back to denying it!
  • kritt11
    Steve- How subversive!!! :-)
  • SteveK
    CStanley said: "Steve, I could quote you all kinds of things that describe ultraconservative movements in a favorable light too, but..."

    CStanley,

    You seem to be confusing "Progressive Education" with "Progressive Politics" (read liberal politics)... the only thing they have in common is the word "Progressive".

    CStanley said: "Also, Steve, it's nice that you define the Progressive education movement the way you do, but..."

    The definition of "Progressive Education" I provided you was NOT mine... had you followed the link I provided you might have learned what "Progressive Education" is.
  • kritt11
    Maybe Obama didn't mention his leadership on the board because he didn't think it was a really big deal. I'm still waiting to see some kind of documentation of Obama and Ayres "shared beliefs" and some valid evidence that Obama was radicalized by his association with Ayres. The whole thing seems really flimsy.


    Mrs. Annenberg certainly didn't seem embarassed about giving all this money to a wild-eyed radical and the other board members were well-respected educators, businessmen and community leaders. If there's some concrete evidence that
    Obama did anything questionable (besides not talk that much about his experience at the Foundation) I've yet to see it. Otherwise its just another smear.
  • CStanley
    Denying intent to distort, George,while also apologizing if it came across that way. Is that hard to understand?

    And honestly, I have a hard time believing that you guys think that people within a movement don't have internal disagreements about what that movement represents. Of course I looked at your link, Steve- I didn't say that you made that up, just referenced the definition you provided which is one definition, not the only one. If you'd read the link to the Ayers interview, you'll see that he obviously has some disagreements with mainstream advocates of the benign progressive education reforms that is defined in your link.

    George: would that it were true that "progressive education" had nothing to do with "progressive politics." Again, read Ayers' own words to the contrary.

    BTW, in case it's not apparent- I was unable to comment for a while so I came back today to check the thread. Don't know if anyone's still reading.
  • CStanley
    Kim: The Annenberg thing appears to be the only real life executive experience that Obama has had...so when he was being attacked on that basis, instead of mentioning a major education grant project that he oversaw, he didn't think that was very significant and instead cited the fact that he has run a campaign?
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