I want to join in the debate and let me make my position clear from the start…I refuse to pay any more taxes for illegals in this country. That would include all social serivces. IF you want them here so badly then you can pay my share okay?

The illegals that come to this country bring over population, added poverty and added criminals. Have you seen the projected population of this country by 2042 with the current influx of immigrants? In addition Illegals are 3x more likely to commit crimes then citizens. Why would anybody want that? Why do you want additional taxes, crime and population? Most of these people don’t even want to be Americans that is why they are here for years and don’t even learn the language. They want to remain Mexicans. The past migrants were welcomed to this country with open arms because we needed the population to occupy the massive land. And these people assimilated in short order to the American way. They learned English. Much of the Mexican population refuses to learn English because they don’t want to be Americans. They either wish to return to Mexico one day or assimilate the southern states into Mexico…I am not sure, which is more prevalent.

I don’t understand why people who argue on the side of immigration always want to bring up the past? We are not living in 1890 , are we? Laws and things change over time correct? I would say that things and laws have changed since America desired an influx of immigrants. Would you like an example of some laws that have been changed or added for the better since 1890 or since 1952? I am sure you can come up with quite a few on your own.

Since most of our population explosion (illegals) stems from Mexico have you ever taken a moment to see how the country of Mexico feels about foreigners in their country? Notice I say foreigners and not illegals. Here are some excerpts of Mexicos constitution. Read it carefuly it is quite interesting. I am especially fond of articles 11 and 16

Pursuant to Article 33, “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.” This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere.

Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.”
Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered “indispensable” include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be “a Mexican citizen by birth.” Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, “Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters.”

Article 11 guarantees federal protection against “undesirable aliens resident in the country.” What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen’s arrests. Article 16 states, “In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities.” In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!

Hey Roro80 do you get that? Could you imagine article 11 and 16 of Mexicos constitution being implemented here?

Mexicos president is so hypocritical to chastise America about its treatment of Mexican Nationals here. Mexico just wants to unload its poor and criminal element on the dumb Americans. And no offense people such as yourself fight to help Mexico with its goal.

I want to join in the debate and let me make my position clear from the start…I refuse to pay any more taxes for illegals in this country. That would include all social serivces. IF you want them here so badly then you can pay my share okay?

The illegals that come to this country bring over population, added poverty and added criminals. Have you seen the projected population of this country by 2042 with the current influx of immigrants? In addition Illegals are 3x more likely to commit crimes then citizens. Why would anybody want that? Why do you want additional taxes, crime and population? Most of these people don’t even want to be Americans that is why they are here for years and don’t even learn the language. They want to remain Mexicans. The past migrants were welcomed to this country with open arms because we needed the population to occupy the massive land. And these people assimilated in short order to the American way. They learned English. Much of the Mexican population refuses to learn English because they don’t want to be Americans. They either wish to return to Mexico one day or assimilate the southern states into Mexico…I am not sure, which is more prevalent.

I don’t understand why people who argue on the side of immigration always want to bring up the past? We are not living in 1890 , are we? Laws and things change over time correct? I would say that things and laws have changed since America desired an influx of immigrants. Would you like an example of some laws that have been changed or added for the better since 1890 or since 1952? I am sure you can come up with quite a few on your own.

Since most of our population explosion (illegals) stems from Mexico have you ever taken a moment to see how the country of Mexico feels about foreigners in their country? Notice I say foreigners and not illegals. Here are some excerpts of Mexicos constitution. Read it carefuly it is quite interesting. I am especially fond of articles 11 and 16

Pursuant to Article 33, “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.” This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere.

Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.”
Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered “indispensable” include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be “a Mexican citizen by birth.” Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, “Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters.”

Article 11 guarantees federal protection against “undesirable aliens resident in the country.” What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen’s arrests. Article 16 states, “In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities.” In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!

Hey Roro80 do you get that? Could you imagine article 11 and 16 of Mexicos constitution being implemented here?

Mexicos president is so hypocritical to chastise America about its treatment of Mexican Nationals here. Mexico just wants to unload its poor and criminal element on the dumb Americans. And no offense people such as yourself fight to help Mexico with its goal.

As for your mess of statistics on the overall population of SD, I would like to point out that undocumented workers are…wait for it…undocumented. The vast majority of Mexicans in that area (or anywhere) illegally don't raise their hands when the census comes around. 30% is probably closer to the legal hispanic population there. Unless you really think all Mexicans need to go away, and not just the illegal ones.

I looked up my high school on the site you listed: it earned a “6″, whatever that means, and the ethnic breakup was slightly more hispanic than white, with less than 1% in any other category. Yet, the area is extremely wealthy on the whole, and I was able to get into the best university in the state with my public education there. Mount Carmel has tons of money, it's true, and that definitely reflects in funding for schools, level of parental involvement, etc. Ocean Air — no idea, private magnet school maybe? Anyway, I think what the high school data seems to show is not a Hispanic vs. White issue, but a poor vs rich issue. Which, yet again, only has to do with Mexican people or immigration because they tend to be poor, and therefore live in areas with lower-performing schools. Unless you think Mexcians are stupid?

#1. You've almost succeeding in making this argument about race. It is NOT about race. Mexican is NOT a race, it's a nationality.

#2. When SD refers to “Mexicans”, I believe he is referring to the illegal aliens who are in this country, who are, by an amazing majority, from Mexico. The US citizens who were previously Mexican are NOT included in that group.

#3. The illegal aliens, as they are (I refuse to call them anything but that as it is an accurate description, none of this “undocumented immigrant” crapola) are exactly that. Criminals. Plain and simple. They are breaking the law. Period. That's it. If you want to become a citizen of the United States, I welcome you. But if you want to break into our country illegally only to siphon money out of our economy and into your own pockets, BEWARE. This is my family you're stealing from.

#4. And no, the vast majority of illegal aliens do NOT pay ANY taxes, much less their fair share.

You lose, but thanks for playing.

SD- The numbers for school scores are based on race, and the fact that a large hispanic or large black population will cause the school scores to plummet is a whole other can of worms.

Poor whites have different coping strategies than poor blacks who are different than poor Hispanics. The idea of trailor park trash applies to whites because Hispanics and blacks are much less likely to take that path. Poor blacks will stay in large cities but poor whites move out of urban areas. Hispanics crowd into housing (see the national stories about Prince Willing County Virginia or Atlanta Georgia) but white just do not.

Also, in looking at greatschools.com, I looked up a highly rated public high school in San Diego. The school, Mount Carmel, with a score of 8 of 10 is 53% white and only 10% Hispanic. Another schools with a 10 of 10 score, Ocean Air is 4% Hispanic. yet, Lincoln High School is a score of 3 of ten is 50% Hispanic and 40% black. So, it looks like Hispanic culture and white culture in San Diego works like it does everywhere else in the U.S.

“The culture of minorities…” holly heckfire, dude. They don't live in those conditions because it's part of their culture. They live in those conditions because they are POOR. When white people have no money, they live in poor conditions, move in with relatives, in their car, on the street, as well as immigrants. That there are adults who don't understand that blows my mind. It's incredible to me that the very standard Republican argument you give in that first paragraph is somehow supposed to jive with the whole “the market takes care of everything” de-regulatatory, anti-union, no minimum wage Republican argument. I haven't gone back to your other comments to see if you are one of those free-market folks, so maybe that doesn't apply to you.

For this: “since the white elites in California or the East Coast never interact with blue collar whites, they despise them because the elite whites seem them as being lower than immigrants/minorities. ” I think the only answer is, er, no they don't. Again, where are you getting this information?

As for San Diego's white/non-white ratio, the difference between that area and the other urban parts of California is that the non-whites are all Mexican (obviously not ALL, but far and away), whereas LA and the Bay Area have huge black, Asian, Indian populations, San Diego really doesn't, except on military bases where there is a significant black population. The Mexican population in SD is huge, and makes up almost all of that 49% of non-white people. I was a white kid, and I attended a school in an upper-class suburb that was about half white and half Mexican. My graduating class was about 500, evenly split between white and Mexican, 2 asians, and maybe 6 blacks. My mother is an administrator for English Language Development in a larg-ish middle-class city there, and there are many schools in her district that are more than half English Learners. My point here is not that white people and Mexican people live there in perfect harmony in SD, but that having extremely large Mexican populations does not mean that you're economy goes down the drain. If El Paso's has, maybe that's the fault of something besides just the ethnicity of the residents there (all the stuff I mentioned above). And not to put too fine a point on it, but to suggest otherwise is racist.

Places like DC and NYC function the way they go by replacing blue collar whites with immigrants and minorities. The culture of the minorities allows them to live in conditions that whites can not/will not do such as cramming extended families into a single dwelling. Having large number of immigrants allows placed like DC to have high paying jobs for white collar whites while maintain cheaper services. If you look at a place like DC, the District itself has no blue collar whites and the surrounding counties have few if any. Blue collar, white tradesmen drive in from 50 miles away or more to work in government licensed industries like electrical, plumbing, and HVAC because illegals and recent immigrants cannot break into those fields. My guess is that LA, SF, and SD work about the same way. It is also probably the reason that the total number of whites in California is going down.

since the white elites in California or the East Coast never interact with blue collar whites, they despise them because the elite whites seem them as being lower than immigrants/minorities.

Oh, San Diego county is actually whiter than California as a whole, so it does not support your your thesis. It is 51% white versus 43% for all of California. Compare that to El paso Texas that is 14% white. I wonder how many white kids in San Diego attend a school that is majority Hispanics. My guess is few to none. Where people send their children to school shows you want they really feel about other ethnic groups.

Why does it scare you if there aren't as many white people in California? Does it bother you to hear different languages, see brown faces? White people aren't having as many babies, it's true, but that's not because of a fear of the brown-people future, it's because birth control is awesome.

I've never been to El Paso, but I grew up a few miles from the border in California. Lots of wealth down in San Diego, let me tell you — lots of racism, too, but lots of wealth. Maybe the Texas locations are crappy and poor because they're in the middle of the dusty desert, have little state support because Texans don't pay income tax, and those who are educated or successful want to move somewhere better. I don't think you can argue that San Diego has a less prominent Mexican immigrant population than any of those places, but it's beautiful and the weather's great, and the ocean is warm and swimmable, so people with money want to live there, bring jobs there, retire there, and put their wealth into that area. Again, you're ascribing to Mexicans something that has nothing to do with them. Most people would call that racism.

Also: wealthy people hate poor white people more than they hate poor Mexicans? Where do you get these ideas? Would you mind rewording this so I can understand the question: “If you open the borders to unlimited immigrants, where are the blue collar whites support to immigrant?”

Try opening a dry cleaners in California or getting a job in a medical lab or in medicine if you are white. Many writers have begun to notice that California has a defacto caste system where certain ethnic groups work certain jobs and it is not all agriculture or fast foot. The total number of whites is California has been going down for about two decade bacause of massive immigration.

I wonder if “Ned Lips” have ever visited El Paso, Laredo, or Brownsville Texas to learn first hand what large number of illegal aliens really do to an economy.

The wealthy really like immigrants because they are used to eliminate blue collar whites. If you look at cities from Los Angeles to DC, you will notice that there are few if any blue collar whites. If you open the borders to unlimited immigrants, where are the blue collar whites support to immigrant? Canada?

As for immigration, we need to control our borders and revise our immigration policy to end the sappy “family reunification” practice in favor of evaluation, a “points system” and an individual basis for admission to the USA.

This is totally ridiculous: “Look at the career fields in California that are now barred to whites and blacks because of their domination by immigrants.” What fields are you talking about? The actual, literal fields? Do you think you wouldn't be able to go get a job doing ag work or washing dishes? Do you feel “barred” from those areas? Or is it that migrant workers are clogging up your path up the corporate ladder? They bought all the nice suits at Barney's you had your eye on?

California is running a huge budget deficit and does not have the cash to pay its bills because the millions of illegal aliens in California consume more in government benefits than they pay in taxes. If poor mexican immigrants were good for the economy, El Paso Texas would be a boom town instead of an arm pits.

Middle class Americans are stressed by the downward pressure of wages created by millions of both legal and illegal aliens. Look at the career fields in California that are now barred to whites and blacks because of their domination by immigrants. Look at how much the middle class and upper middle class spends to that there children are not sent to schools that are overrun with illegal aliens. Look at the drop in white birthrates in the U.S. becasue whites to not like the future they see.

The middle class would have to be idiots to add millions of illegal aliens to the welfare rolls, the voting rolls, and the unemployment rolls.