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The 2008 Economic Crisis: How To Protect Yourself (Guest Voice Part III)

This is the last of three special Guest Voice posts on the present Wall Street economic meltdown by Mikkel Fishman, a TMV reader and frequent writer in our comments section who is also an author and computer scientist. Part I is HERE and Part II is HERE. This final part was written right before the House of Representatives defeated the bailout plan.

The 2008 Economic Crisis: How To Protect Yourself

by Mikkel Fishman

In the prior sections of this series I’ve discussed why I believe our current economic crisis is due to long term and fundamental imbalances as well as the two basic choices that our society can make for addressing the problem. In this concluding part, I will talk about the crisis on a more personal level and suggest steps that you should take to protect your own finances, but first a little segue.

A commenter asked if there was a “middle road” solution that had targeted deflation while preserving credit availability and aimed for minimal disruption to economic growth. In fact there is, and the current plans being discussed by Congress are awful if that is the goal.

This plan correctly identifies that the fundamental problem is that there is too much debt that relies on inflated asset values, and that this is preventing banks from lending. It suggests recapitalizing banks directly instead of trying to buy off the assets. This approach is much more efficient because of leverage in the system.

The bailout bill currently being discussed is talking about buying up to $700 billion in assets, but since banks are leveraged approximately 10x, a direct infusion into banks of $70 billion would have the same effect on lending, assuming that it wasn’t directly eaten up by a continued decrease in assets that already exist. This is why the “middle road” is to isolate bad banks and let them fail, letting the massive amount of debt start to deflate and then recapitalizing – even if it means starting up new banks with a fresh balance sheet.

A new study released by the International Monetary Fund that looks at historical precedents concludes that recapitalization is far superior to direct asset purchases, both from an expected government loss stand point and future economic growth.

It’s no wonder that nearly 200 economists have signed a letter opposing the current [recently defeated] bailout as it’s written.

However, while I tentatively support this sort of action, I am more pessimistic about its long term success unless there is a radical change in societal views.

First of all, everyone is talking about spending far too little money. The IMF study suggests about 15% of GDP is necessary to correct these types of problems, but ours is one of the worst in history and we would be lucky to get off that easily. I think that upwards of 30% of GDP is more likely. Even the lower estimate would give a cost of around $2 trillion, and my guess would be about $4 trillion. The consensus amongst several high profile analysts is $5 trillion (e.g. http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/09/marc-faber-us-needs-as-much-as-5.html).

This is a serious chunk of change and calls into question our global dominance. Due to our massive long term liabilities and over extended expenditures on a personal and government level, we will still need to see a large decrease in standard of living for the foreseeable future. Otherwise our slim chance of maintaining our reserve currency status will disappear entirely and really compound our problems. This is already being openly discussed in both China and Europe.

Still, truth be told there is little difference between the views expressed in my prior piece and this middle road solution other than timing. My suggestion is more “conservative” in that it argues that the scope of the problem is so large that it may very well be a large waste of money to try to recapitalize while asset values are still declining rapidly, while this proposal attempts to take the edge off the negative effects of that decline. I should note that during the beginning stages of the Great Depression we tried very similar programs to the recapitalization one and they failed to stem the decline.

In any case, I want to finish the series by discussing how to protect yourself on a personal level once it is clear which direction we are moving in. Unfortunately it may be very difficult to protect your personal wealth if we experience rapid deflation or inflation unless you are in the right asset classes, but it is unclear which path we are headed down now. I would strongly recommend against jumping into any of my suggestions at this point in time, but the more prep work is done beforehand, the more secure you will be when it comes time to make some hard choices.

The first piece of advice is pretty easy and applies no matter what situation we find ourselves in: get out of the stock market almost entirely.

We are still in both a cyclical and secular bear market, meaning that the current price of stocks is not supported by realistic projected earnings over the next couple years, nor expected long term economic growth over the next ten years. Even without Financial Armageddon the market is overvalued by at least 25% and perhaps more, as we are in a period of declining P/E ratios. Everyone is so focused on the credit turmoil that they are all but ignoring how terrible most companies’ earnings reports are.

Also, while it’s true that this will pass in time, it’s not true that buy and hold is the best strategy, as there are very simple strategies that capture nearly all of the gains but require being in the market only about 60% of the time. By selling now and having cash, it will give you more options moving forward, higher expected return if it’s put in a CD or treasuries and will be a cushion if there is an emergency or job loss.

Needless to say, pay down high interest debt if you can, but I would focus on building up several months of cash even if it means carrying balances with moderate (say 10%) interest rates.

Again, having the cash will give you more flexibility to maneuver and respond to unforeseen events, so paying a premium for access to it is probably a wise choice. In fact I’d go one step further and say that if you do not have nine months to a year of cash available, have access to a low interest loan or line of credit and have little existing debt, to take the loan and just park the money in short term CD.

A $50k loan at 7% interest has a carrying cost of $2k a year if invested in a 3% CD. Think of that money has an insurance policy in case you lose your job and it makes sense for most people that have little debt. For people that already have a significant amount of debt I’m not sure it makes sense.

The starting point is to have as little high interest debt as possible and as much cash amassed as possible even if it means a carrying a moderate amount of low interest debt. This will put you in a position to move quickly if deflation or inflation starts to take hold and from here on out my focus will primarily be on preserving your capital if one of those starts and how to spot the beginning of the trend to signal when to start a strategy.

If there is deflation then cash is king. Wages will drop precipitously, as will prices on everything. Assets like houses, cars, etc. will lose a lot of value, and the cost for luxury goods may fall tremendously. If we start seeing deflation then the dollar will start to rise in value a lot against other currencies and it doesn’t make sense to really be invested in any physical asset and you would get “richer” just by having cash lying around. Gold might rise, but that’s a quirk.

The reason why gold would rise is if people are worried about the collapse of fiat currency in general and then it’d only make sense to have physical gold on hand. It’s such a dire situation I’m not sure it’s worth it to bet on it because if it happened then you’d have a lot bigger worries than your bank account.

If deflation happens then the primary concern is maintaining employment and making sure to not have any leverage. In my prior suggestion that it is OK to build up some debt at low interest rates as long as you are also building up cash reserves in a safe account, you aren’t increasing your leverage because you have money to back the debt load. Even if your salary fell by 50%, you could continue to pay off the debt from your reserves.

By contrast, many people have little money in their account and lots of debt so they are leveraged. For these people if their salaries fell then they would have a very hard time paying off debt and monthly costs and would most likely have to declare bankruptcy.

Deflation will be signaled by a very fast increase in the dollar relative to other currencies and government bonds, as well as a sharp decrease in the price of commodities and luxury goods. Bonds for private companies may still crater because of uncertainty about their survival.

Indeed, this combination is exactly what we have been seeing the last couple months and the market had clearly voted for Deflation as the likely outcome…at least until the rescue bill was proposed. Uncertainty about the inflationary effects of the rescue bill made commodities skyrocket and the dollar drop by the largest one-day amount ever versus the Euro. Now we are in a bit of a holding pattern with strong deflationary effects occurring in the present and strong potential inflation in the future.

The course of action to protect yourself during deflation is pretty straightforward. Of course it will also contribute to further deflation, which is why it’s called a deflationary spiral. Once asset prices get to be lower than historical norms (as seen in a P/E ratio under 10 for the stock market, and housing prices that are more historically supported) then it makes sense to start venturing back and spending money that has been amassed. This part is crucial to the reboot of the economy and end of the spiral.

It is tougher to protect yourself against inflation, especially as it can take several forms. While deflation affects all assets in relation to the dollar, inflation can cause price increases in some asset classes but not others, especially depending on the amount of inflation.

In the first scenario, the United States will be the main industrialized country experiencing inflation. This could happen if we spend trillions of dollars to help our financial system and the rest of the world sits back. In this cash, the dollar would plummet against other currencies and it makes sense to diversify out of the dollar and use other currencies as a hedge to protect your capital.

The price of food, gas and other necessities may skyrocket in dollars, but shouldn’t be affected much in other currencies and so monthly bills would be easier to pay off if you have some foreign currency holdings.

If there is accompanying wage inflation in the US then we might even see housing stop its downturn and the stock market might reverse course and start to increase. Both the stock market and housing would appreciate less than prices are rising, so standard of living would still be going down, but they would be good for diversification. The faster inflation rose, the more necessary it would be to be invested in assets and foreign currency/assets to protect yourself, and cash is the last place you want to be. It would even make sense to start to become a bit leveraged in order to keep up with rising costs, as long as you don’t get too out of hand.

In the second scenario there is global inflation. Right now it seems that Europe and Asia are in deep denial about the extent of their problems. They blame us for the current crisis and seem to think that we are isolated, but by many measures Europe is far worse. They have even more personal debt and a greater bubble than we do and have injected a far greater amount to keep the financial system from collapsing when seen as a percentage of GDP.

In fact, there are several banks that have more assets than their host country’s GDP. Likewise, Asia in general and China in particular have seen massive cash flows into the region due to artificial devaluation of their local currency. This means that they have many dollar denominated assets and a huge amount of liquidity that is contributing to inflation. China’s inflation is currently running over 10%, as are most of the emerging countries that were such poster children for globalization. These countries do not have a good financial infrastructure and seem to be experiencing many of the problems that plague countries that grow too quickly.

This scenario (which I think is most realistic on our current path) is the hardest to navigate.

It doesn’t make sense to try and seek haven in foreign currencies, because that will not protect against price increases. Furthermore, while assets may start to rise like the stock market and housing, the mad rush of the entire world attempting to find assets that return better than their local inflation will make it very difficult to navigate. Under the first scenario it is assumed that a lot of foreigners would stay local but under this one that is no longer logical. I think there is a good chance of random bubbles appearing out of nowhere only to rapidly deflate as people jump out again.

Commodities like oil, food and metals would see consistent price gains, especially gold. Gold and oil may even form a super bubble as they would be seen as physical assets that are hedges in case fiat currency collapses. If we start to see immense increases in these products without an accompanying decrease in the dollar against other currencies, then I would think about diversifying into those asset classes. Even then I would be loathe to say “recommend” because they will be highly volatile.

Under this situation I have little good advice to be honest, other than to read a lot of what the leading professionals are doing and mirror them (by leading I mean some of the people I linked in my first piece, not the ones on TV).

Regardless of the path that unfolds, I predict that we are going to see a substantial decrease in the standard of living over the next decade or maybe even two if things are really bad. Fundamentally economics is a projection of social mood and psychology and people across the political spectrum have long started to believe that our current culture of easy credit and frivolities seems unwise.

I would take the Devil’s Advocate position and claim that many of the great advances we’ve seen in the last 30 years would not have surfaced under a different social mood, but still agree that materialism has gotten a bit out of hand and unfortunately it will start impacting basic necessities. The greatest preparation may not be anything tangible but mental.

Still I’m fundamentally an optimist and don’t believe that this is the end of the world. Even if it got as bad as the Great Depression (which I don’t think it will, at least from the suffering perspective) then we would still emerge on the other side and regroup.

My greatest worry is that people are not planning for the long term or steeling themselves for the time ahead. Instead of our leaders being honest and providing direction over the long term, they are focused only on what to pass when a crisis occurs.

Neither Obama nor McCain could even mention any specifics about what they would forego due to the Bailout Bill, let alone show any insight into how the crisis is affecting their general outlook about governance. It is disheartening to see most everyone (politicians and citizens included) become overnight experts about what to do while the views from the small minority that have seen this coming for a long time are almost universally ignored. I admit it’s fun and I’ve found myself doing it plenty of times about things I know little about even while simultaneously getting irritated about the lack of strategic vision in the economy and Iraq, two areas that I have kept up with for years. There will always be disagreement about strategy but so often our discourse is dominated by arguments over tactics, when historical evidence shows that certain tactics are just not likely to work.

A lot of resistance against the Bailout Bill is due to emotional reasons (i.e. we shouldn’t give rich people that caused the mess more money) as opposed to informed consent about what the consequences will be. Similarly a lot of support for the bill is due to fear, again without much weighing of side effects. Bernanke suggested there were little inflationary risks and even Obama insinuated maybe the government would make a gain by fallaciously comparing the plan to a depression era program during last night’s debate (that bought houses far below historical value compared to this one that would jump in far above).

I think that as a society we can persevere through very trying times as long as there is the mental and physical preparation for the challenge, but fear that willful ignorance will lead to severe overreaction even at a relatively minor trial if we are not prepared.

I would like to thank everyone that read any part of this series. The ultimate goal was to convey my thoughts about what the future may look like with the hope that at least someone would be helped prepare for the possibilities on at least a mental level; from a personal perspective I am nervous that things are actually happening but ultimately confident that things will be OK and it’s only because I’ve studied this so much. Hopefully none of this will come to pass and this whole thing will be a bloviating relic.

  • Hi Mikkel -- very well done series, congrats!

    I read the Bill King alternative plan, and I think it has merit also. In current political terms, the candidate who can coherently articulate something along these lines would put discussions on a whole new footing.

    It is in the "other considerations" that I find some pieces that have somehow eluded the electorate at large, I think. Specifically, here:

    • The real estate problem is due to the fact that American incomes do NOT support current prices. Easy credit allowed them to purchase homes they couldn't afford.


    This is exactly right. When one puts it into the "supply / demand" model, it becomes even more clear. Demand should have reduced radically when home prices went too high, but the moronic lending practices (and government's enabling thereof) exacerbated the overreach of borrowers.

    Prices must return to earth (i.e. within reach of actual people via traditional criteria). And as hard as the thump may be, we have to let them. If the underlying problems aren't allowed to correct, we're heading for a much bigger collapse.
  • DLS
    Yes, we have to let prices return to normal levels. (Homes _still_ cost too much, for example. Who cares about the distress of greedy and parasitic special interests and speculators?) We shouldn't be bailing out anyone or any institution, but letting them fail, because they deserve to fail and they _should_ fail. Instead, we get a sob-story-laden bunch of appeals to bail out deadbeat borrowers and we are told that we "must" prevent financial institutions from failing, naturally at our expense. Maybe the best thing would be to hire the World Bank to advise us directly on how to clean up the mess that has been made.
  • DLS
    Easy credit? What about misuse of credit of all kinds? To this day here in Detroit I see people in the suburbs continuing to use credit cards for convenience to buy things such as at Starbucks. I and plenty of others grew up learning one paid only cash for such things, or used checks. But never credit cards. Why are so many people using credit cards? Just as with their continuing to drive large vehicles here in ways that waste fuel (and constitute hazards to others on the road), obviously if they are using credit cards, this economy is nowhere close to the depression some sensationalists and political operators claim is happening in this country. (Just as it cannot be truly bad if home prices remain excessively high, as they are today.)
  • RememberNovember
    I never use a cc for anything consumeable- that 4$ Starbucks is now a 4.25$ latte with a cc.

    Debit cards! Work just the same and business don't get surcharged! We as Americans have gotten so used to defecit spending- thanks in part to the credit giants who leech off the populace.

    Priceless.
  • CStanley
    Excellent series, mikkel, thanks!

    This morning I heard Stuart Varney on Fox pointing out that the 700 point drop of the Dow yesterday was huge, but still not really the complete meltdown that was predicted (esp since overseas markets didn't crash overnight and the US market will open with a pretty decent upward bounce.) Seems more like yesterday was a Three Mile Island kind of disaster, not a Chernobyl one, no? And if so, then does that help kill the main argument for the Paulson style plan, which apparently was that we'd see complete financial meltdown if THAT plan wasn't enacted? Does it give more political room for alternative proposals to be considered (esp since voters obviously wanted to reject that plan anyway?)

    I also have a question about the housing market. I'm assuming that what we now have is a housing glut- since a false demand was created among those who truly couldn't afford the houses- and now demand has shifted since those homeowners will leave the pool of potential owners/buyers. Have you seen the proposal that if mortgages are bought up, that some properties should actually demolished? It sounds drastic but I wonder if something like that really is necessary- or could we just live with deflation of housing prices until the demand catches back up?
  • CStanley -- I'm not Mikkel (to whom your question is directed), but I have a reaction to this:

    "Have you seen the proposal that if mortgages are bought up, that some properties should actually demolished?"

    If we start to destroy housing stock, it seems to me that we'd be deliberately trying to sustain / maintain inflated prices -- and that strikes me as a VERY bad idea.
  • tar723
    People did purchase homes they could afford, when they had jobs.The financial institutions; i.e. mortgage, credit card, and insurance, in particular, bit off their noses to spite their faces. Had these financial institutions negotiated with their customers, most of whom had good credit ratings and paid their bills, they would not be in their bankruptcy position. They (financial institutions) in all their well paid wisdom should have known it would be better to get some money from their customers than no money, If the mortgage companies want to rid of their deflated assets, maybe they could give people their homes back at a reasonable market price and negotiate payments rather than scamming the public again and putting the publics 700 billion into the hands of morons. The CEO's of such companies should be fired, out of a job, and live in their cars - turnabout is fair play. As for the credit card companies, rather than pushing people into bankruptcy by increasing interest rates to a ludicrous 30+ percent, they could have negotiated with their customers and given them a fair rate, dropped late fees and overlimit fees. They had every opportunity and disregarded the prime rate for greed. Their CEO's should be fired, out of a job, without a package, and denied credit. As for the insurance companies, I would like to know how much they dished out after the hurricanes, etc. Considering the ludicrous rates charged to customers, most of whom never make a claim, their CEO's should be fired, without a package, and left uninsurable.
  • CStanley
    That's a good point, polimom. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it all and wasn't sure what to make of that.
  • DLS
    Remember November -- My ATM card (the cash-getting thing) is also a debit card.

    Works great! Less hassle. (Works great! Less hassle...) And noooooooooo interest.

    Priceless, indeed.
  • mikkel
    Yeah actually I was sitting there yesterday planning my next move in the stock market and realized that I didn't know of any companies that were in immediate danger anymore. That, combined with some very strong long term technical levels and I think there is a good chance of a 10-15% bounce pretty soon. I wrote this piece before the massive decline and still stand by my assertion that it's at least 30% overvalued just based on forward earnings, but in the near term things are getting over done.

    The problem of course is that the stock market is so visible that it's the main barometer for economic health when really it shows very little about the underlying situation. This whole thing has been caused by only about $500 billion in losses so far, but over the long term we're looking at $800 billion - $1 trillion just in mortgage losses. There have also been projections by several firms for another $500 billion to $1 trillion in other credit losses.

    We're only about 1/4 of the way through the ballgame folks.

    But this is going to take several years to resolve itself and there will be many panics and "dire" situations, but for the most part, by the time things hit the front page it's too late.

    The only near term concern is the complete evaporation of short term credit that businesses use to run day to day operations. The plan wouldn't even have addressed this directly and the terms are so short that once people realize that the major banks aren't going to fail then the spreads on short term financing will come down and this phase will be over. The next phase is when decent businesses start failing because they can't roll over long term debt and this will happen in the coming 6-9 months. The final phase is when the new banking behemoths would fail from another $1 trillion+ in losses.
  • mikkel
    This is exactly what the point of the plan is and it is akin to the crop destruction our government has long supported that has now gotten very out of hand. I'd go so far as to say it's one of the few ideas I've heard worse than the bailout bill as proposed.
  • DLS
    I believe some activists and some municipal governments (such as Cleveland? Jill Miller-Zimon?) want the federal government* to purchase and renovate abandoned as well as foreclosed homes, typically to be sold for deliberately undervalued (subsidized) prices to inner city residents. In effect, it would be a new, additional kind of federally provided and subsidized housing for people. Many want a bailout to include provisions for "homeowners," that is, to subsidize their squatting in cases where they face foreclosure (and subsequent renting or eviction if things properly were left to proceed as they should). In addition to referring to "homeowners," such proponents emphasize "Main Street instead of Wall Street" and this week, "trickle-up." I wouldn't be surprised if many of the 95 Democrats who voted to reject the earlier bailout bill did so because the bill didn't include substantial government goodies for "homeowners" (and municipalities).

    We not only can live with falling housing prices; the prices are still too high and should fall more!


    * Do you notice it is never the state governments -- the federal government is typically now not only the first agent chosen, but often now the _only_ agent, thought of, whereas constitutional federalism means it should be the _last_ agent thought of and normally never thought of or specifically _avoided_ .. this is an example with housing and the federal govenrment of what seventy years of welfare-state deviation have wrought, the perversity of our system of government. Why not abolish the states?
  • mikkel
    Oh I should have a slight caveat in my post about how the only thing to worry about is short term funding for now. There is a TON of long term debt that needs to be rolled over in the final three months of the year and as this starts failing it may cause many bankruptcies. Panic might sweep its way back into the short term lending from this.

    Although most of that debt is financed privately and not through banks. So again, the plan wouldn't really help address that unless the banks are somehow supposed to take on hundreds of billions in long term debt.

    Plus the banks themselves have over $800 billion in debt that they will need to refinance in the next year and a half. There will be almost no market to do this. So even without more realized losses they will have an enormous challenge. Again, the plan wouldn't have helped.

    That's why it's a false dichotomy to talk about whether we can do "something" and not have lots of people suffer or do nothing and have the next depression. There are just so many trillions of dollars of either bad debt or from companies whose entire business model relies on perpetually rolling it over that we can't really do much.

    Also, while central banks have been pumping over a trillion dollars of liquidity to help with short term financing they might be making it worse. The conventional wisdom about the role of central banks is that if they provide liquidity then every one will start to cooperate more...it looks like a part of the immediate crisis is that they have no incentive to when the Fed is so generous. And the bill would have made it worse.

    The more I read about the Great Depression the more I see that they tried everything they could and the popular perception of a dithering Hoover being the primary reason is a myth (used by FDR to great effect). Sure Hoover and Congress might not have been paying much attention, but the central bank actions are almost the exact same.
  • CStanley
    But this is going to take several years to resolve itself and there will be many
    panics and "dire" situations, but for the most part, by the time things hit the
    front page it's too late.

    Yeah, I meant to mention earlier that I agree with all of your other suggestions (and we're already doing most of them) except for getting out of the stock market. I may end up being proven wrong, of course, if we really go through a crash of the magnitude of the Great Depression, but at this point I feel that's less likely than that we'd take huge losses by selling now. I say this with some confidence in my intuition- which could be unfounded in the sense of broken clocks being right twice a day- but that confidence is based on the fact that I wanted to sell most of our stock based investments and move to a cash position about one year ago and was outvoted by my husband and our financial advisor. It now turns out that that would have been the optimum time to have done so.)
  • RememberNovember
    yeah. It's been a boon for me in re-educating myself credit wise. Convenience of a cc, with the discipline of not spending what you don't have and pinning your hopes on what you might have later on...would that we could train Washington to be so sensible. That's not to say extending credit is bad, but it is the overextension that has gotten everyone in hot water.
  • CStanley said: "I wanted to sell most of our stock based investments and move to a cash position about one year ago and was outvoted by my husband"

    Me too!!!!! Very little comfort in being right, though, in this particular situation.

    Mikkel: I don't know that I agree with you about the market, near term (though I agree totally that it's over-valued generally). In spite of taking losses yesterday in companies I don't think are in danger, I'm fully expecting a contraction across the board. Partly in over-reaction, and partly as society makes the necessary adjustments and dollar velocity slows.
  • mikkel
    Yeah I trade more on the short term but have studied longer term stuff to get a feel for it. I don't want to get a super amount into technique right now but I do like showing this chart. It shows that long term performance is dictated almost completely by P/E ratio and direction. The problem is that so much conventional wisdom about the stock market focuses on secular bull markets.

    The CW is to look at the market since 1946 (because we all know that the 30s were bad) and then refer to the mid 60s through 70s as another bad period and it shows that you should always hold because there are fast recoveries. Well this is a great myth, and this pattern is seen in all sorts of stuff so it's not really a fluke.

    In secular bull markets (that admittedly can run a really long time) it is best for long term investors to sit and wait because each cyclical bear market soon is surpassed by the next cyclical bull. But in secular bear markets that can last just as long there is a consolidation pattern of the cyclical cycles and it makes sense to try to time it or sit out completely. Based on historical trends and our current imbalances I think it'll be at least 2014-2015 before the next secular bull begins, perhaps even a few years longer. (I'm not saying that there won't be another cyclical bull that brings us back to the peaks we've seen before failing...that's a good possibility).

    I've seen so many ideas "proven" by people running them on 1980-2007 that are now being overturn. The sad thing is that a big bulk of people's retirement plans are predicated on the idea that over any given ten year period, there is an annualized gain of 10%, which is just flat out wrong as you can see from the chart. (Also that's the Dow chart, the S&P is even more dramatic.) I feel bad for anyone that was/is planning on using the stock market to support them in retirement if they are the smack in the middle of a secular bear.

    My parents are a highlight of the worst timing, where they had the last 8 years where when they had the most focus on building up retirement funds it hasn't been good and then they are most likely looking at another 8 years once they are retired of subpar performance. Fortunately they aren't in too bad of shape, although there is a lot of pressure on me to get consistent 10-15% annualized gains to make sure their plans don't crumble, which actually isn't too difficult for smaller traders that can play both directions.
  • mikkel
    If people are interested I can write up a very basic article on technical trading that anyone should be able to follow and is not nearly based on reading tealeaves as some of the "technical trading" stuff. I tend to not want to focus on that because most people want to just do very long term stuff and have too much stress by trying to keep up and can lose a lot of money very quickly by doing things on a short timespan (like taking advantage of the 3-6 month cycles). I'll just summarize by saying that although I agree with you fully about the underlying reasons, I am very confident that in the next 2-3 months there will be a massive rally from some point and that it will take us far (like at least 8-10%) above our current levels and if we don't then it will be an extreme historical anomaly that wasn't even seen during the Great Depression, let alone the 70s or the earlier part of this decade.
  • "I am very confident that in the next 2-3 months there will be a massive rally from some point and that it will take us far (like at least 8-10%) above our current levels"

    FWIW, Dear Husband agrees with you completely. Here's hoping you're both right, since we didn't reposition nearly enough.

    :>

    Meanwhile, on a slightly unrelated note. Both McCain and Obama are now banging the drum for increasing the FDIC limits. My reaction isn't particularly good, since it sends a much different signal to my ears (one that isn't at all reassuring). What's your opinion?
  • CStanley
    Very little comfort in being right, though, in this particular situation.
    Exactly, except that it does make me more confident going forward- because although I completely understand the CW of buying and holding for long term investment, and even buying when prices are low (when others are running away), I now have more confidence that even without extensive knowledge I can sense when we're in an unusual situation where we're poised for more than a cyclical correction.
  • mikkel
    Well I am not an expert on technical banking matters and often find myself surprised at how it actually works, but it's my general impression that the FDIC limits were made so the government didn't have to backstop the system.

    See the FDIC is actually privately financed through insurance premiums paid by the banks. The limit is to help the fund figure out how much potential liability it has. Also there is the effect that everyone wants which is that encourages people to put money in money market funds and other investments that can then be used to do more than just give loans, and opened up the bottle for all this spiffy debt creation. (For instance a lot of money market funds are invested in corporate bonds and such).

    So by increasing FDIC limits it is going to be an implicit government backstop against failure because the banks can't afford to pay more on their insurance. I think this is actually OK from both an economic and confidence standpoint.

    Remember that most of "money" in the system is just leveraged out of real money. So the government backstopping assets and trying to get them to rise means expanding the monetary base immensely and leading to inflation. However, if banks are failing and have tons of debt destruction, and the government supports the bank accounts (even through direct printing) then it is my understanding that overall this would lead to deflation and not threaten our currency. I *may* be wrong because of some caveat I'm over looking.

    So actually increasing the FDIC limits is more likely to make things worse from a deflationary standpoint because everyone will be more likely to take their money out of all the private investments and put them in a bank. The idea I guess is that if the banks have more capital they can work through their problems better, but the asset values will fall from the flight to safety, counteracting their increase in capital.

    However it should protect individuals better which I think is important as long as the government is aware of the consequences and doesn't try to fight them (haha i know I should be a standup).

    Increasing the limit will also make bad banks take more risks because people are less likely to move their money if it's insured, so in a way it may help contribute to bank failures over the long haul. Countrywide, Wamu, etc have had insane CD yields and were doing even worse and worse transactions even as they were going under because their CD yields attracted a ton of FDIC insured deposits.
  • The_Master

    "Increasing the limit will also make bad banks take more risks because people are less likely to move their money if it's insured, so in a way it may help contribute to bank failures over the long haul. Countrywide, Wamu, etc have had insane CD yields and were doing even worse and worse transactions even as they were going under because their CD yields attracted a ton of FDIC insured deposits."

    This is the argument against raising the FDIC limit in a nutshell. In the short term it tamps down panic and encourages people to leave their money in the banks. Longer term, it lulls people to sleep about any risk to their money from bad banking and encourages more risky behavior on the part of the banks.

    As for the FDIC's funding, FWIW, my understanding is that Congress (THEM again!) ordered the FDIC to stop collecting premiums from banks when the FDIC's fund reached ~$50 billion. Because, *of course* that was enough money to safeguard the system, and why should banks keep paying for their insurance when the insurance company already had *enough* funds?

    Idiots. They all need to be thrown out of office. Now.
  • The_Master
  • I agree with The Master about FDIC and its purpose. To me, pushing for the limits be raised suggests that somebody thinks we're very very close to full-on panic, and they're hoping to prevent a run (which would indeed be ugly). Worse yet, prominent people are presenting it as part of the solution, when it looks more like serious disaster signal.

    Interestingly -- Mikkel's response to the FDIC question seemed to suggest that it's an okay idea, but he then went on to describe quite a number of reasons it isn't.
  • mikkel
    Haha well yeah I noticed that too, how surprising!

    It really depends what your general outlook is. If you think that we can right the asset ship I'd say that it's not a good idea, but I think the most important things are to protect people's cash savings and the US dollar and from that perspective that's why I think it's OK. I am more concerned with people losing physical savings than protecting asset values at this point.
  • tar723
    I'm sorry, Mikkel. You lost me in all of your babble. I believe in the KISS principle, Keep It Simple Stupid. Although abstract, if you want to see the "uppers" in action, watch The Housewives of Orange County. I'm sorry, I do not want to pay for their botox, their fake appendages, their children in rehab, and their multi-million dollar homes. Am I wrong? I think not. That is Wall Street, not Main Street. Now then, my government (those that represent the "people") wants me to pay up for those frivolities? All of your babble is inert.
  • Wanted to drop this into the "how to protect yourself" files:

    The people who will be able to continue functioning most "normally" as things tighten down will be those who have good credit records. (also -- as I understand it, couples can use the higher rating of the two). People who aren't sure should request their credit records (you can do that for free once a year), and examine them for errors or very old "dings"... and get them removed.

    I haven't used this particular site, but it includes the 3 agencies lenders rely on for their decisions.
  • tar723
    I am an ignorant, uneducated person, but; the statistics and formulas credit reporting agencies use date back to the 50's. How convenient. Should I be intimidated by my credit score? I think not. I know where I'm going and I know where I've been.
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