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One Nation Whining Under God

Surely two of the great things about being George Will are the facts that he’s not running for office and that he has about the same level of job security as a Supreme Court Justice or the Pope. This allows him the luxury of saying some really unpopular things, particularly when they are true. During the roundtable section of George Stephanopoulos’ show, Phil Gramm’s remarks on “a nation of whiners” were brought up, prompting George Will to jump into the breach.

Of course, Phil Gramm is absolutely right… We are the crybabies of the Western world. We have an extraordinarily low level of pain tolerance.

While some are complaining about it mightily, that phrase really stopped me in my tracks and I’ve been pondering it all day. An “extraordinarily low level of pain tolerance” indeed. While I have never been a cheerleader for the war in Iraq, on at least one point I think I can understand some of the thinking of the administration. Why have Americans not been asked to make sacrifices to run this war, as we have during conflicts in our more distant past? Probably, I imagine, because whatever popular support the war enjoyed during the early years would have evaporated like mist in the morning valley.

Were those who came before us – that Greatest Generation – really that much tougher and, well… greater? During World War Two, our citizens on the home front were asked to make tremendous sacrifices – at least to our modern way of thinking. But it bears remembering that these were people who had lived through the great depression. Grow a victory garden? Recycle your tin foil? Donate the odd pot or pan to be melted down for the war machine? Baby food! They had seen much worse. I wonder what they would make of our complaining about the perceived shortcomings of our current health care system? Many of these were the same folks who survived the great influenza pandemic of 1918 when there was no social support network, healthcare (such as was available) was oh so crude by comparison, and they had literally been watching people dying in the streets.

My grandparents’ generation also had clear memories and family stories of the people who came before them who had it even worse. They had to live through the Great War of Northern Aggression. Famines were commonplace, medical procedures involved barbaric and largely pointless torture procedures which were far more likely to kill than cure, and they did it all by the light of whale oil lamps. Diseases which are now either virtually unknown or – at most – require the annoyance of a quick trip to the clinic, routinely ripped through towns and cities wiping out as much as two thirds of the population at times.

We just bred ‘em tougher in those days, not from any ingrained sense of, “We are Americans and we must be tough!” but rather out of simple necessity and the immutable laws of Darwin. Those who were tough, survived, and those were were not, well… did not.

Today we take all of these benefits for granted and our idea of “sacrifice” would be curious indeed to our forebears. The vast majority of us not technically homeless sit comfortably protected from the weather. The loss of a job is painful, but there is unemployment insurance and, if you must, welfare. Most any medical challenge can be met, and even facing the unthinkable we can be kept mostly pain-free in hospice to await our end in peace. We expect our government to take only a bare minimum of our paychecks in taxes, but demand that it keeps the price of everything low, the supply plentiful, and that we be discomfited to no significant degree while we engage in our own, individual pursuits of happiness.

There are plenty of things going on with our government and society where clear room for improvement exists. And, of course, we’re free to comment on it. But let us not pretend that we’re not a bunch of whiners. Our threshold for personal pain and sacrifice would likely send those who cleared the way for us into howls of laughter.

  • Jim_Satterfield
    The context of Gramm's comments were not "This is nothing compared to the Depression or World War II.". He was attempting to claim that the reason he believes we are whiners is that the economic pain being felt by the average American is all in their mind, that in fact things are just fine. That context is the reason Gramm is being slammed and Will can agree with him so readily. Both of them are in positions where it has been decades since they had to worry about any of the economic issues most working Americans are dealing with.

    As far as this line goes

    The loss of a job is painful, but there is unemployment insurance and, if you must, welfare.

    I would suggest more research. Many people in today's economy don't qualify for unemployment insurance, a program that has not been modified in many years to account for the changed nature of the American work place. And have you forgotten that welfare as you refer to it has been eliminated, set to be a ticking time bomb that is only supposed to help you for five years out of your entire life span? And that many of the conservative persuasion want to get rid of that? And as far as those medical challenges that can be met, does that include those medical bills driving you into bankruptcy? Or the medical complications from the stress of worrying about those bills?
  • StockBoySF
    While I agree with the very basic underpinning of the argument- that Americans are too soft and used to having things easy, I don't think the flu, the Great Depression or WWI or WWII were fabrications of the government. These were national problems which the government tackled and the American people knew that sacrifices were necessary.

    However the Bush administration started a war of choice on completely false pretenses (and partly for the benefit of its cronies in the energy industry). That war continues to divert the government's attention away from dealing with problems at home. Bush has done nothing to reel in gas prices, has done nothing to address environmental concerns, has only increased the national debt to give money to the wealthiest folks while giving at most $600 to individuals as part of some feel good tax rebate system. In the meantime the Bush administration has shown its willingness to spend billions of dollars- or extend guarantees- to keep financial companies (I'm think Bear) afloat. Folks are losing their homes because banks don't want to reduce profits. Because of soaring energy costs there will be lots of people this winter who will need to burn their furniture to keep warm. Let's not forget about Katrina....

    If the government were truly one for the people and was actually tackling the problems facing Americans today, that would be a different story.

    Americans are resilient and are survivors. The difference is that in the past there was a government which took action to solve the problems. This current administration could care less about the average Joe. After all, if you have a health issue, you can just go the emergency room!

    BTW: I like Will and just because he has a good reputation doesn't make everything he says right.

    I actually don't think most Americans are whiners... I think most Americans are dealing with their circumstances the best they can manage. Americans are making lots of sacrifices.
  • "Why have Americans not been asked to make sacrifices to run this war, as we have during conflicts in our more distant past? "


    I strongly believe Americans were not asked to sacrifice for this war because George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove made a political calculation that to do so would be to put Bush's re-election chance at risk in 2004.

    Those of the Greatest Generation have my greatest respect. But let's remember, they went to war on the heels of the Pearl Harbor attack, a presidential request to Congress and Congress' declaration of war.

    The circumstances of the Greatest Generation's involvement in world war was, then, as different as night is from day with our current involvement in Iraq. Deception, hidden agendas, half truths, taking authorization for use of force under false allegations of imminent threat as license to invade immediately and more somehow don't measure up to Franklin Roosevelt's clearly stated case for war on Dec. 8, 1941. Openness and honesty make a big difference.

    "Our threshold for personal pain and sacrifice would likely send those who cleared the way for us into howls of laughter."


    Perhaps, but let's keep some perspective about it. Our forebears had options we do not enjoy.

    Someone who came up poor in the Northeast of early America could save up to buy a wagon and provisions, and head west to open land and bountiful natural resources that were there for the taking. Yes, risk and plenty of hard work were required, but the American frontier was a naturally occurring free-capital engine of progress like nothing the world had ever seen. Think of it as a no-cost welfare system, for it was true that in those days, anyone willing to assume the risk of going to and living on the frontier could make his fortune, or at least provide decently for his family, whether that meant striking gold, raising cattle, felling timber, opening a general store or subsistence farming.

    Try any of that today and you'll find yourself in jail before you can say "that land was posted." In fact, the open frontier is no more. In fact, the Greatest Generation established its greatness weathering a cataclysmic consequence of that reality: the Great Depression, where millions upon millions of Americans who were dependent not on the land and their own toil and sweat, but upon employment for someone else and a paycheck that could disappear forever overnight, learned the hard-edged reality of laissez-faire capitalism and life under the free markets' uncaring rule.

    Yes, the Greatest Generation made it through, with hard work, sacrifice and tenacity. But make no mistake; they benefited from collective efforts and various forms of government assistance, once good government was restored and assistance was at least attempted. And make no mistake about there being some really bitter bitching and moaning along the way. Greatest Generation Americans were good people, not pollyannas and saints.
  • Some thoughts... Jim, perhaps what you say about the inner workings of Gramm's mind are true. I don't know, as my ouiji board has been on the fritz for some time. However, I do feel that we seem to have a tendency to whine about how bad the current problems we're facing are and don't really put them in perspective. You'll notice I was talking very little about Gramm and more about Will's observation that we, as a nation, have an extremely low pain threshold compared not only to our forebears, but to people in other countries who have it far, far, far tougher and still manage to soldier on. It gives me visions of my mother, when I was a young boy, doing the hackneyed old "Eat your vegatables because there are people in Africa starving." There really are.

    As to welfare, etc. at least where I live in New York state, I've unfortunately seen the system running its course with relatives of a co-worker and things don't seem to turn dire as fast as you might think. Perhaps it's different in other states - I don't know about that. But nobody seems to be getting put out to live and starve to death in the streets no matter how many bad turns of luck they hit. There are a variety of programs which provide assistance to people in distress, including ones which will pay your rent before you are turned out, provide food stamps if you have little to no verifiable income, pay for heating oil / electricity to keep you warm in the winter. There were no such things in the early stages of the 20th century.

    Stockboy, I'm no fan of the Iraq war, nor the Bush administration in general, and I hope I have made that clear over time. But the facts about *how* we were put into that war don't really come into play for the main premise here. That being, this is an expensive war in many ways, including monetarily, and it's putting a huge stress on the system no matter whether you support it or not. But the administration who brought said war into being has never had the nerve to call on Americans to make real sacrifices to support it, be it in the form of higher taxes, fuel restrictions, etc. etc. etc. If they had, I don't think we'd have tolerated it for nearly this long. We're simply not from the same formative background and experiences as the generation that had to make those sacrifices during WW2. That's really all I was saying. We live in what is truly the best of all possible worlds here in America in the modern age, but I sincerely believe we've become spoiled a bit and forgotten what real 'hard times" are and have been in the past.
  • A final word about George Will. Whenever I hear him making judgments, pontificating or sharing his own patented blend of disdainful scorn, I'm reminded that he never served in uniform, started a business and met a payroll or ventured a run for public office to test his ideas and infinite wisdom in the crucible of politics.
  • There are a variety of programs which provide assistance to people in distress . . . .There were no such things in the early stages of the 20th century.


    Since you're from New York state, I'm surprised you're unaware of Tammany Hall's extensive social-welfare activities. Few were the new widows who didn't receive some money to help with burial costs, some coal for the stove and a basket of food for the family, compliments of the Democratic Party and thanks to the ward boss or his agent. Same thing if a worker was badly injured or ill and couldn't brink home his pay for awhile.
  • Re: "brink" in the above comment. Of course, it should be bring.
  • runasim
    I think we do whine too much in many ways , but drawing historical parallels is too tricky to attempt with much legitimacy.
    The critical ingredient missing today is the loss of the American dream of upward mobility for far too many. In a way, it represents the loss of hope. The loss of blue collar jobs, so lightly dismissed by economists, is exactly what has caused the diminshed capacity for upward mobility. Families getting by on the lowest ecomic rungs don't whine just for themselves, they whine for the bleak future they foresee for their children, because they won't be able to give them the traditional boost up.

    What I notice in these discussion is a tendency to think of 'Americans' in terms of one's own financial situation and that of one's friends. We are segregated in economic strata, with little understanding of or empathy for those with a different experience.
    The reality is that economic gaps are not only widening between the rich and the poor. They are also widening between upper middle calss, middle middle class and and the just barely hanging on middle class.

    Similarly, the experience with government safety nets affects different economic strata differently. i don't know to what welfare help Jazz is referrring to for his friends in upstate NY, but having worked with the recently made homeless in NYC, I can assure you that the experience of thousands with whom I became familiar is absolutely horrifying.
    Perhaps some people 'whine' because they know the terrors that await them with one false step or one unforseen misfortune, because their friends or family members have been there.

    The biggest threat to our future, in my view, is this psychological separation between 'people like'us' and 'them'.
    The sense that we're all in it together is not only lost, but it's being denigrated, and that's the major reason why historical comparisons don't hold up.

    This is my life, Mr. Gramm, and I'll whine if I want to, because I see so many reasons for whining, especially for those who come after me, and who won't have the opportunities my immigrant parents and I did.
  • When you're a millionaire like Will or Gramm the overall economy is just a bunch of numbers in your bank statement.

    The rest of us actually have to worry about paying for bills, gas and food.
  • StockBoySF
    Jazz, thanks. "But the administration who brought said war into being has never had the nerve to call on Americans to make real sacrifices to support it, be it in the form of higher taxes, fuel restrictions, etc. etc. etc. If they had, I don't think we'd have tolerated it for nearly this long. We're simply not from the same formative background and experiences as the generation that had to make those sacrifices during WW2."

    I actually believe that if America were attacked then Americans would make sacrifices to fight the enemy. There were many people who signed up for military service after 9/11. But no one can be expected to sign up for Bush's war of choice in Iraq where he misled the public and in which America was not attacked. I mean who wants to fight in a foreign land so oil companies, oil services companies and defense companies can enjoy record profits (and that has no benefit to the security of the US)?

    While I agree that Americans may not have the same fortitude of our forebears and have forgotten what really hard times mean (I quite often think of the colonists who endured harsh winters and horrific conditions, with no guarantee of survival but they came because there was hope and they wanted a chance at a better life).

    I'm sorry, but I'm not cynical. I'm sure that if America was attacked and the president asked folks to sacrifice to save our way of life we would against a real threat and a real attack, then lots of folks would respond. Maybe not everyone, but much of America would. If they couldn't serve in uniform (or didn't want to) then there are other contributions (and sacrifices) they could make.
  • StockBoySF
    I'll put my responses in (parenthesis) after each point you touched in in your initial posting:

    The loss of a job is painful, but there is unemployment insurance (but only for a certain amount of time and if you're over 50 or so and need to start over then you might as well just forget it) and, if you must, welfare. (Being on welfare the rest of one's life is not what most people want- but I will grant you that it is better than nothing, though it probably won't get you above the poverty level.. and with rising prices....) Most any medical challenge can be met, (if you have money and/or insurance, otherwise you could very well end up like that woman in NY who was neglected in the hospital emergency room that she died- and while that may be an extreme case, there are many hospitals out there with awful conditions.) and even facing the unthinkable we can be kept mostly pain-free in hospice to await our end in peace. (What about rural areas? Do they have hospices? I don't think end of life hospices are available to most folks, though to be honest I haven't checked lately.) We expect our government to take only a bare minimum of our paychecks in taxes (I hardly call 38% of my paycheck to various taxes the bare minimum), but demand that it keeps the price of everything low (ha! I wish... I just went to the grocery store and every single item I purchased was at least $4 each- except for some chives and a small cottage cheese), the supply plentiful (and so oil prices keep rising because of demand? But keeping supplies of goods in general plentiful is not a government function, it's a result of the free market and competition), and that we be discomfited to no significant degree while we engage in our own, individual pursuits of happiness. (Meanwhile the government sticks its nose in much of its citizens business, including listening to phone calls. And let's not forget that the Bush administration turned family member against family member and encourage discrimination to be written into the various states' constitutions in the form of the gay marriage ban. And the government did it for its own political gain. Not out of any desire or respect for individual's rights or regard for the basic ideas upon which our country was founded. And let's not forget Terry Schiavo, the brain dead woman who Frist diagnosed via video and Bush made a special trip from Texas to DC to sign a law so the government- for political reasons could meddle in a private decision. That's hardly the pursuit of happiness that our Founding Fathers had in mind when they gave limited powers to the federal government.)

    Our threshold for personal pain and sacrifice would likely send those who cleared the way for us into howls of laughter. (That may be true but times have changed and the Bush government has caused so much more harm to our country than it has helped its citizens. I'm sure that folks 250 years before our founding fathers would consider the life of 18th century America much better than 15/16th century America. Times change and so do expectations of civilizations. To compare our life with that of 1800 is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Unless Gramm and Will expect us to live the life of 1800 and not complain. I for one am very grateful for the advances in technology and society and I do not want to go backwards, which given the problems the US is facing and an inept government we are.... not to the 1800 level, but nonetheless our society is slipping backwards a little.
  • RememberNovember
    on the surface yes these programs were existent, but also layered into Boss Tweeds admin, add corruption greed and cronyism. Social welfare is not a new concept by any stretch, and came about thanks to the abuses of the Industrial Revolution.
    Look at Jacob Riis photo essays at the turn of the century- the media becoming a watchdog for society.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Jazz,

    My comments about the context of what Gramm was thinking came from his own statements and those of others defending him. Technically by the classic definition of recession we aren't in one. But the reality of the economic situation of many people are affected by years of flat incomes and increasing expenses, a situation which Gramm is not in any position to understand and obviously doesn't.

    As far as the average American being asked to sacrifice to support this war, might I suggest that the Bush Administration simply realized that if they did that they might face more uncomfortable questions about their reasoning for getting us into the war? Reasons that wouldn't stand up to close examination are a really good reason for this Administration to do anything.
  • DLS
    Interesting recession remark at end

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103...
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