Separation of Church and State, Sort Of
Barack Obama is promising Americans another faith-based presidency but asking us to trust him not to pervert it, as George W. Bush did, “to promote partisan interests.”
That may take a leap of faith on the part of those drawn to Obama’s new politics as an antidote to eight years of seeing Bush-Rove, to use a JFK era phrase, “pour God over everything like ketchup.”
In his speech this week, Obama was tightrope-walking between his understanding of church-state separation, “as someone who used to teach constitutional law,” and the yearnings of those “bitter” Americans who “cling to religion” as a result of their frustrations.
Declaring that “the challenges we face today–from saving our planet to ending poverty–are simply too big for government to solve alone,” Obama on-the-other-handed, “I’m not saying that faith-based groups are an alternative to government or secular nonprofits. And I’m not saying that they’re somehow better at lifting people up. ”
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11 Responses to “Separation of Church and State, Sort Of”
and the yearnings of those “bitter” Americans who “cling to religion” as a result of their frustrations.
Lord what a horrible thing to say. As one of faith I do not cling to my religion because the US government cut my food stamps or refuses to pay my medical bills, or fosters a climate that favors one group over another.
I cling to religion because it is a God I believe in that gives me emotional support and comfort. When the government starts coming to my house and counselling me whenever I call them, then perhaps I will change who I call my GOD.
“the challenges we face today–from saving our planet to ending poverty–are simply too big for government to solve alone,”
correct. He gets it. Casting a bone to moderates and those pesky 80 percent of America who are religous and cling to religion. So…..Lets make government smaller and balance the budget.
And I’m not saying that they’re somehow better at lifting people up. ”
Opps. Hes confused again. Gotta be sure that we keep the far left/Atheist/Anti religion people happy.
Conclusion. Hes as confused as those who now voted for him. The man they thought they were supporting is somehow morphing into someone they don't recognize.
Lets mandate everyone perform public service……….Im sorry which judge ordered that and which law did I break to mandate public service???
Lets have religion all under one roof so the ULTIMATE DEMOCRATIC NANNY KINGDOM can manage those BITTER religious people.
The NANNY STATE is on the way. LONG live the NANNY KING.
Neocon, I'm sorry — but what are you talking about?
The only thing I saw in Obama's proposal that looked even close to “mandatory” was in reference to middle / high-schoolers.
On topic: Robert, I hear you. I was nearly apoplectic when Bush started channeling the voice of God (VERY loose paraphrase, folks. don't get excited). And hearing someone talk about “doing the Lord's work” — as you quote Obama saying — as a presidential candidate definitely calls for examination and thought.
You seem to be saying that Obama thinks he's “doing the Lord's work” via the faith based initiatives. What I heard was quite different: he has faith. He sees “doing the Lord's work” as part of his personal Christian commitment. But I also saw him drawing both a clear line between church and state, and heard him say that all avenues are necessary — secular, governmental, and religious.
Is it not possible, then, for a president to have personal faith and a belief in helping the poor? Or said another way: would you feel more comfortable with Obama's faith-based support if he were agnostic / secular?
From Barak Obama's own pdf file on this agenda.
Require 100 Hours of Service in College: Barack Obama will make college affordable for all Americans by
creating a new American Opportunity Tax Credit. This fully refundable credit will ensure that the first $4,000
of a college education is completely free for most Americans, and will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the
average public college or university. Recipients of this credit will be required to conduct 100 hours of public
service a year, either during the school year or over the summer months.
This feature has been on his website for months minus the public service feature. FLIP FLOP.
That plan conditions that assistance on school
districts developing programs to engage students in service opportunities. Obama believes that middle and high
school students should be expected to engage in community service for 50 hours annually during the school
year or summer months. He will develop national guidelines for service-learning and community service
programs, and will give schools better tools both to develop successful programs and to document the
experience of students at all levels.
This is what Im talking about
And the one thing that baffles me is that these students. They are bussed all over towns in America. Many in rural communities. Communties in which they must travel 10-20 miles to get to school are now expected to leave their farms or ranches and go to somewhere 10-40 miles away and do community service.
People in large cities whose father and mother are struggling to make ends meet are going to have to take time to get their kids to community service programs and wait for them or drive back and pick them up when gasoline is 4 bucks and climbing and they are already struggling to make ends meet.
Barak Obama is disconnected with America. he has spent too many years of his life walking thru a few blocks in Chicago thinking the rest of us only have to walk next door to do community service.
Strange fella indeed.
Neocon, mandatory means, “you have to do this, period.”
There's nothing mandatory about the college tax credit he's proposing. You don't want the credit? Don't do the hours.
Like I said — only the middle / high-school plan approaches anything like mandatory, though a better word might be coercive. And as I wrote on my own site, as a parent I think it's a good thing.
“People in large cities whose father and mother are struggling to make ends meet are going to have to take time to get their kids to community service programs and wait for them or drive back and pick them up when gasoline is 4 bucks and climbing and they are already struggling to make ends meet.“
You're getting lost in the detail weeds.
If I were Hillary I would fire up the campaign and get back on the trail to Denver. This man needs political counseling.
So, we're back on the Hillary bitter-loser trail.
That has nothing to do with anything here.
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Obama's outreach to faith groups is very typical of his “include every one' philosophy, which has been there for all to hear, if only they would listen.
The results will depend on the administration of that outreach, and it's vital that he choose staff well and carefully.
I have no problem with the ideas, though.
Religion and the State have to be separate, but there is no reason why they can't cooperate.
“which has been there for all to hear, if only they would listen.”
runasim, it grows increasingly obvious that people have not been listening on MANY issues.
Neocon, most of us only have to drive down the street to do community service. In the Florida small towns around my city, there's a crying need for people to do the work that people used to think was just part of life: checking on the elderly, making sure the sick are all right, the poor are fed, etc. It's a shame that we've reached the age when people have to be paid to care about their communities but — EXCEPT for churches — that's where we've landed.
Working as a volunteer at the local Crisis Center for several years — where I frequently had to go into the United Way database to find services to help clients — I was astonished at just how few sources were available and at how many of those that existed were through the churches.
The nanny state thing is always brought up by people who think either that they'll never fall or that there's a net there somewhere. For many, there's no net.
I've seen how much better other countries care for the poor, the disabled, the elderly, and the young — they moan about it, but it gets done, to some extent. It's a damn shame that Americans are so indifferent. The churches, sadly, are often the place of last resort. And they don't have the money to do the work unless they get funding. I hoped Katrina would get people to see how much need there is, but it didn't really work out that way.
I don't care for Obama's faith-based initiative in principle either, as it happens. I'm very nervous about that walll between church and state (which is one reason I oppose McCain, who goes much, much further).
But at least it's an idea. I don't have any better ones, or at least not any better ones that wouldn't require people to part with more of those precious 'tax dollars' on a regular basis. And even those would take years to implement.
Damozel,
You hit on something that takes first place in all these debates: pragmatic solutions to real problems.
People don't like taxes.
They cry about the nanny state.
They're just against aginast against.
I want that wall of separation to be impenetable when it comes to policy.
But I have no trouble when both sides of the wall co-operate to answer the needs of the country.
Unless a miraculous third choice crops up, there is no choice but to cooperate.
Damozel
The really decitful tact being taken here is that in the current funding practice one must get in line, find a grant and apply for it. People like the reverend Wright are going to be rejected because of the amount of non controversial applications for grants.
Under Obama’s plan those who are standing in the Rev. Wrights way and groups like him which are highly political while being a church would have no problem accepting the hiring and firing laws contingent upon receiving loads of money to do the work of the democratic party.
This in effect will creat a giant 527 for the democratic party so that political churchs can under the cover of this program proselytize not religious converts but POLITICAL CONVERTS.
Those groups currently getting the grants would drop out as they would not want to fall under federal guidelines.
Now if this program can be used to abuses such as this then the works projects are going to be even more of a mess because Obama is going to tell the schools just how they should do works. So in effect are we going to have kids from the burbs being taken to inner city Detroit to pick up garbage?
Not to sound glib but the horror stories I see arising from this are more then any positives that i can envision.