MoveOn's gibe at Petraeus was uncivil. Worse, it was lame.

Cause swift-boating John Kerry wasn't uncivil, and accusing Max Cleland Cleland, a decorated veteran and triple amputee of being unpatriotic isn't uncivil.

What goes around comes around…

* and International ANSWER — the kinds of people who during the Vietnam war would be the fine folks at places like Berkeley who sent the Viet Cong some care packages; I'm surprised they haven't sent such packages to “the insurgents” these days in Iraq

* and Michael Moore, etc.

Here's waht happened.
1. Obama gave a great speech
2. He said somehitng you disagree with (but with which I agree.)

What accounts for your focus on what's wrong with Obama, instead of what's right with Obama in the speech ?
What accounts for your defense of MoveOn above your praise for Obama?

I share the sentiments of this:

“It is amazing to see in recent days the Left undermining the finest candidate the Democratic Party has produced in years. Perhaps MoveOn really wants a McCain presidency?”

True, Obama is the most disciplined national Democratic candidate in anyone's memory. He can certainly remain on track.

But Shaun's post is spot on! There is a potential for the MoveOn/Code Pink & Co. to derail the Obama Express.

Progressive Left parties in a number of other countries seem to take an obscure pleasure in Noble Failure and ideological purity above all things.

“to trample on Obama’s message because he is not sufficiently leftist and unwilling to jump through its hoops, then its stridency will not only be a negative force but a reliable punching bag for the right-of-center punditocracy”

Very very true. No matter how disciplined or smart Obama is…the GOP can always run against the Looney Left. Thatcher did it brilliantly in the UK…and for some reason, the Looney Left loved its role there…undermining Labour and attacking Thatcher, and then enjoying complaining about the “Thatcher Police State”.

It is amazing to see in recent days the Left undermining the finest candidate the Democratic Party has produced in years. Perhaps MoveOn really wants a McCain presidency?

But it was political dissent. It is sufficient for Obama to say, 'I don't agree with the substance of what they said' without getting it mixed up with patriotism.

If MoveOn believed that Petraeus wasn't credible as a witness on progress on Iraq, those people had every right — some might even say, the obligation— to question his credibility.. But to frame it as a 'betrayal' was a ridiculous exaggeration, and the lame rhyme made them seem fatuous.

I am disturbed that issues of civility got mixed up in Obama's speech with whether it's patriotic to challenge the credibility of a presidential employee. The right succeeded in framing it this way, but I cannot agree.

RE: Clark, I disagree on this point as well.

I have trouble with it as a tactic not because I disagree with Clark, but because it distracts from the message that McCain — whatever his credentials — has got it wrong. Obama might NOT win in a battle of credentials, but he certainly can challenge McCain's premises, rip apart his policies, and show people why his own plan is much better. His plan IS better. People need to hear why.

Experience is useful, but not if the ideas are all wrong.

Obama is a brilliant and persuasive speaker. If he can't persuade people that McCain's policies track views that are proven failures, I don't know who can. He can win the war of ideas if he stays on track.

Nevertheless, I dissociated with MoveOn early last fall when I noticed how often they were adopting attack-Republican tactics rather than sticking to actual advocacy for causes. The left is left and the right, right and that is all to the good–a multiplicity of voices is necessary to a vibrant democracy. A politician's role–particularly on the national stage–is different. The ardent left should come to grips that ANY Democratic party standard bearer must strive for something a bit more inclusive, a bit more communitarian, a bit more productive–you know, like a president of a country ought to be expected to. (The same goes for the right.) Our egos are getting in the way of effective government.

If you moderates had stood up to the right-wing nuts, and not rolled over like bunch of whipped dogs, we would not exist as an organization.

Yet I give them credit. As Thomas Jefferson wrote:A little rebellion now and then is a good thing . . . . God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.

I am hoping that we are going thru our 20 years and this will end soon.