Comments on: Why Bill — and Certain Hillary Supporters — Should Let Hillary Drive the Car http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/ An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:40:56 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-122149 just4clinton Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:43:09 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-122149 Obama does have a tendency to flip flop on issues but that is neither here nor there I can imagine all politicians do.<br><br>To answer your main question though as to why the only person I can see being President is Hillary and why I do not support Obama.<br><br>Let me start with the latter part of the question. The most major issue I have with Obama is that he has no problem running as the candidate of MLK Jr's dream come true yet he shows no inkling of identifying with the black community. I am not interested in a black candidate who has to enter the white house through the back door. Black American's have entered through back doors long enough. Obama plays his race FAR to down as far as I am concerned. Yes I expect more from someone who identifies as possibly the first black president. When Wolf Blitzer during the early debates asked Obama if he supported reparation for black American's his answer was no. I was utterly appalled and disgusted from that point on especially since Dennis Kuchinch had enough guts to say YES blacks do deserve reparations and as president I would work to provide them and he isn't even black. This country has apologized to and provided reparations for the Jews, the Japanese and to some extent even Native American's. For Obama claim to be black yet not see the importance of supporting reparations for the group of people who suffered the most while simultaneously contributing the most to this country is insulting. We continue to suffer the most and our existence today is the direct result of what we endured throughout our history in this country. And the difference between the suffering of blacks in this country and other minorities is that we never asked to be here.We can not be lumped in with the many immigrants who came to this country on their own free will and endured hardships. We we dragged here in chains across the Atlantic ocean. Yes the middle passage was a HOLOCAUST! The selling of families, castration of our men and Rapping of our Women destroyed the black family unit. A unit we are still as a black community trying to fix. He compounded the insult of not supporting reparations by also refusing to attend the black state of the union, an event where he would have been our starred and featured guest. Finally his most disgusting act or should I say lack thereof was not attending the 40 year anniversary of Dr. Kings memorial. How dare you want to embody the dream yet not feel it more important to attend his memorial rather than stumping in Michigan(a state he didn't mind skipping the first go round). I do not agree with him going that far out of his way to prove he isn't running as the "black" candidate especially considering that the reality is he IS the BLACK candidate. <br>Additionally, and this might be a little harder for you to follow, he allowed himself to be pimped out to white america. He rarely wore ties instead opting for a hipper looser fighting look. And every time he was featured in an article their was almost always mention of his sports background. Even today he decided to hold his acceptance speech on a football field rather than at the Pepsi center. I recognize that the only time white america is able to stomach a successful black man is when he is rapping or playing sports. Obama allowed himself to become the embodiment of this stereotype. Sorry but I will not help him by voting for him. He disappoints me as a black candidate and a black man. I do not look to him as inspiration but rather as an embarassment. <br><br>Hillary on the other hand has never concerned herself with what the pundits would say. She brazenly takes on causes hoping that the good she intends will somehow find it's way out. Everyone is all Whooping about the prospect of Universal Health Care but where were the masses in 93' and 94' where were Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi then? Hillary stood alone against practically the country. She took her beating and came out stronger and better. I like Hillary because she is always willing to ask for the unthinkable. Her position on felony offenders is the only one of its kind that I have heard from a presidential candidate ever. She is interested in restoring the civil rights that non violent felony offends lose, that keeps them in the system. And as a young black man that speaks to me because it is people that look like Obama and myself who make up the majority of the prison population. And although I have been fortunate enough not to ever have been in the system myself, I know how many people from my neighborhood don't fare as well. The black community remains where it is because our men remain locked behind bars, and when they get out they are unable to enter back into society because they cant vote, or get jobs and because the can't have business licenses they are not even able to work for themselves. Because they spend their lives in jail from such young ages they also don't receive and education. Hillary also wanted to reinstall educational services back to our prisoners. Now that is true CHANGE. Hillary is better to me on issues that would really help this country such as education. She helped revamp the Arkansas school system and to this day teachers from their and around the country thank and support her. Finally their is a sector of the country that very few if any politician concern themselves with (besides blacks and latinos) and that is rural farmer of America. Because of her time as First Lady of Arkansas Hillary has first hand experience in improving the quality of life for our Farmers who we will one day need to turn to if things continue the way they are. We WILL need to harvest our own food rather than import it from around the globe. Her work in improving the living and health condition for those impoverished farmers of Arkansas is quite admirable in my eyes and is an indication of what she can do for the country. Hillary isn't here to be a rock star like Obama. She has always been here working for those less fortunate, impoverished and for children and families from her days working with Marion Elderman(sp) foundation until today.<br><br>Before you count her out take a look at something that the media does not mention about her.<br><br>Quite frankly we have had 43 male presidents throughout history. I think this country is desperately and severely in need of the maternal instincts of a Female leader. I honestly think that is what is truly needed after Bush.<br>Justin Obama does have a tendency to flip flop on issues but that is neither here nor there I can imagine all politicians do.

To answer your main question though as to why the only person I can see being President is Hillary and why I do not support Obama.

Let me start with the latter part of the question. The most major issue I have with Obama is that he has no problem running as the candidate of MLK Jr's dream come true yet he shows no inkling of identifying with the black community. I am not interested in a black candidate who has to enter the white house through the back door. Black American's have entered through back doors long enough. Obama plays his race FAR to down as far as I am concerned. Yes I expect more from someone who identifies as possibly the first black president. When Wolf Blitzer during the early debates asked Obama if he supported reparation for black American's his answer was no. I was utterly appalled and disgusted from that point on especially since Dennis Kuchinch had enough guts to say YES blacks do deserve reparations and as president I would work to provide them and he isn't even black. This country has apologized to and provided reparations for the Jews, the Japanese and to some extent even Native American's. For Obama claim to be black yet not see the importance of supporting reparations for the group of people who suffered the most while simultaneously contributing the most to this country is insulting. We continue to suffer the most and our existence today is the direct result of what we endured throughout our history in this country. And the difference between the suffering of blacks in this country and other minorities is that we never asked to be here.We can not be lumped in with the many immigrants who came to this country on their own free will and endured hardships. We we dragged here in chains across the Atlantic ocean. Yes the middle passage was a HOLOCAUST! The selling of families, castration of our men and Rapping of our Women destroyed the black family unit. A unit we are still as a black community trying to fix. He compounded the insult of not supporting reparations by also refusing to attend the black state of the union, an event where he would have been our starred and featured guest. Finally his most disgusting act or should I say lack thereof was not attending the 40 year anniversary of Dr. Kings memorial. How dare you want to embody the dream yet not feel it more important to attend his memorial rather than stumping in Michigan(a state he didn't mind skipping the first go round). I do not agree with him going that far out of his way to prove he isn't running as the “black” candidate especially considering that the reality is he IS the BLACK candidate.
Additionally, and this might be a little harder for you to follow, he allowed himself to be pimped out to white america. He rarely wore ties instead opting for a hipper looser fighting look. And every time he was featured in an article their was almost always mention of his sports background. Even today he decided to hold his acceptance speech on a football field rather than at the Pepsi center. I recognize that the only time white america is able to stomach a successful black man is when he is rapping or playing sports. Obama allowed himself to become the embodiment of this stereotype. Sorry but I will not help him by voting for him. He disappoints me as a black candidate and a black man. I do not look to him as inspiration but rather as an embarassment.

Hillary on the other hand has never concerned herself with what the pundits would say. She brazenly takes on causes hoping that the good she intends will somehow find it's way out. Everyone is all Whooping about the prospect of Universal Health Care but where were the masses in 93' and 94' where were Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi then? Hillary stood alone against practically the country. She took her beating and came out stronger and better. I like Hillary because she is always willing to ask for the unthinkable. Her position on felony offenders is the only one of its kind that I have heard from a presidential candidate ever. She is interested in restoring the civil rights that non violent felony offends lose, that keeps them in the system. And as a young black man that speaks to me because it is people that look like Obama and myself who make up the majority of the prison population. And although I have been fortunate enough not to ever have been in the system myself, I know how many people from my neighborhood don't fare as well. The black community remains where it is because our men remain locked behind bars, and when they get out they are unable to enter back into society because they cant vote, or get jobs and because the can't have business licenses they are not even able to work for themselves. Because they spend their lives in jail from such young ages they also don't receive and education. Hillary also wanted to reinstall educational services back to our prisoners. Now that is true CHANGE. Hillary is better to me on issues that would really help this country such as education. She helped revamp the Arkansas school system and to this day teachers from their and around the country thank and support her. Finally their is a sector of the country that very few if any politician concern themselves with (besides blacks and latinos) and that is rural farmer of America. Because of her time as First Lady of Arkansas Hillary has first hand experience in improving the quality of life for our Farmers who we will one day need to turn to if things continue the way they are. We WILL need to harvest our own food rather than import it from around the globe. Her work in improving the living and health condition for those impoverished farmers of Arkansas is quite admirable in my eyes and is an indication of what she can do for the country. Hillary isn't here to be a rock star like Obama. She has always been here working for those less fortunate, impoverished and for children and families from her days working with Marion Elderman(sp) foundation until today.

Before you count her out take a look at something that the media does not mention about her.

Quite frankly we have had 43 male presidents throughout history. I think this country is desperately and severely in need of the maternal instincts of a Female leader. I honestly think that is what is truly needed after Bush.
Justin

]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-122141 just4clinton Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:02:09 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-122141 I find myself more concerned with quality as opposed to quantity. I find myself more concerned with quality as opposed to quantity.

]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-122094 just4clinton Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:55:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-122094 LOL...I will take the fact you thought I was a woman as a compliment. Many people think that! Seriously though I am a young black man (25 years) and college educated at an all black college (I went to Morehouse) so I suppose you are right we are "supposed" to be supporters of one another's candidates. I believe that is what made this election so special. Obama was able to bring in Millions of young voters who were so displeased with politics. He captured independents and swayed republicans into joining the democratic camp. Hillary was able to motivate and harness the power of women as voters and managed to gain the respect and votes of middle America's white men the vote we felt she would have the hardest time capturing. It really goes to show that both candidates were outstanding throughout the primaries even if we may agree to disagree on many issues. I think it is because each group felt that their respective candidates were perhaps their only hope to getting America on the right track that regardless of who ended up with the nomination their stood the possibility of a sort of rift in the party. Truly, although I have heard all of the reasons why Obama should not pick Hillary, I think she is really the best choice for a running mate. It seems to me to be the best chance the democrats have at truly healing their coalition. I fear if they do not run together the animosity that is going on now (and I blame the DNC not Obama) may not evaporate by November giving McCain, the snowball's chance in hell to win, that he might otherwise have not had. LOL…I will take the fact you thought I was a woman as a compliment. Many people think that! Seriously though I am a young black man (25 years) and college educated at an all black college (I went to Morehouse) so I suppose you are right we are “supposed” to be supporters of one another's candidates. I believe that is what made this election so special. Obama was able to bring in Millions of young voters who were so displeased with politics. He captured independents and swayed republicans into joining the democratic camp. Hillary was able to motivate and harness the power of women as voters and managed to gain the respect and votes of middle America's white men the vote we felt she would have the hardest time capturing. It really goes to show that both candidates were outstanding throughout the primaries even if we may agree to disagree on many issues. I think it is because each group felt that their respective candidates were perhaps their only hope to getting America on the right track that regardless of who ended up with the nomination their stood the possibility of a sort of rift in the party. Truly, although I have heard all of the reasons why Obama should not pick Hillary, I think she is really the best choice for a running mate. It seems to me to be the best chance the democrats have at truly healing their coalition. I fear if they do not run together the animosity that is going on now (and I blame the DNC not Obama) may not evaporate by November giving McCain, the snowball's chance in hell to win, that he might otherwise have not had.

]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-122048 vwcat Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:48:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-122048 I was reading an article on Huffpo on how the republicans are going to attack Obama on racial grounds. Try to stereotype him from the old jim crow era and try to evoke white bias.<br>this was expected.<br>However, it got me to thinking.<br>Hillary's supporters are defined largely as older, white women. Obama's as either african americans or young white college students.<br>I don't know your age but, you say you are a black woman. And you supported Hillary.<br>I am a 50 year old white woman who supports Obama.<br>Do we defy the boxes the media tries to put people in or what? I am suppose to be the Hillary supporter and you are suppose to be the Obama supporter according to the little boxes the media tries to put people in.<br>Oh, and I don't live in a big city, drive a prius or drink latte. My house is the size of a postage stamp in a working class neighborhood in a little big town in middle america.<br>I do confess to be a big reader and history buff. Drive a vw bug and am half french and paint in oils. does that make me a liberal elitist? I like defying labels and boxes. My daughter says i thrill in being a rebel. Daring to be different. lol.<br>Anyway, It just occurred to me and thought i would tell you. <br>Love busting the little media boxes as well. hahaha.<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- I was reading an article on Huffpo on how the republicans are going to attack Obama on racial grounds. Try to stereotype him from the old jim crow era and try to evoke white bias.
this was expected.
However, it got me to thinking.
Hillary's supporters are defined largely as older, white women. Obama's as either african americans or young white college students.
I don't know your age but, you say you are a black woman. And you supported Hillary.
I am a 50 year old white woman who supports Obama.
Do we defy the boxes the media tries to put people in or what? I am suppose to be the Hillary supporter and you are suppose to be the Obama supporter according to the little boxes the media tries to put people in.
Oh, and I don't live in a big city, drive a prius or drink latte. My house is the size of a postage stamp in a working class neighborhood in a little big town in middle america.
I do confess to be a big reader and history buff. Drive a vw bug and am half french and paint in oils. does that make me a liberal elitist? I like defying labels and boxes. My daughter says i thrill in being a rebel. Daring to be different. lol.
Anyway, It just occurred to me and thought i would tell you.
Love busting the little media boxes as well. hahaha.
————– Original message ———————-

]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-122046 vwcat Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:31:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-122046 These are bills sponsored by Hillary from 2001 up. she sponsored 90.<br>Just for comparison with the ones by Obama from 2005 up. he sponsored 152, but this lists just up to 100.<br> clinton<br><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas">http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas</a><br><br>Obama<br><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas">http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas</a> <br><br>diane<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- These are bills sponsored by Hillary from 2001 up. she sponsored 90.
Just for comparison with the ones by Obama from 2005 up. he sponsored 152, but this lists just up to 100.
clinton
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

Obama
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

diane
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]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-122006 vwcat Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:26:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-122006 Here is a list of Bills by Obama 2005 thru 2007. 2008 has not been complied so far.<br><br><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery">http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery</a><br><br>This is for bills sponsored and co sponsored:<br><br><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas">http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas</a><br><br>This is just for the US senate. If you want more, I can get the Illinois senate record for you.<br>diane<br><br>ps. this is bills sponsored and cosponsored by Hillary Clinton from 2001 up<br><br><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas">http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas</a><br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- Here is a list of Bills by Obama 2005 thru 2007. 2008 has not been complied so far.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery

This is for bills sponsored and co sponsored:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

This is just for the US senate. If you want more, I can get the Illinois senate record for you.
diane

ps. this is bills sponsored and cosponsored by Hillary Clinton from 2001 up

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas
————– Original message ———————-

]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121982 vwcat Tue, 08 Jul 2008 06:17:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121982 In Rockford some are like the ones like Wrights. <br>Have you ever youtubed the whole sermons that those came from. if you listen to the whole sermon you will be quite surprised by how out of context those clips are. <br>What was wrong was that Rev. Wright got upset over the way the media treated him by not putting those sermons in context and went after them at the press club and tried to hurt Obama on top of it in his anger.<br>But, the sermons were very much out of context. In reality they are not hate speech and were part of something entirely different.<br>See, the media likes to give only sound bites and never explains the whole of things which are mostly much tamer then the conflict they are peddling.<br>Just like this weekend the media spent it tearing down Obama for something that was not true. Obama was vilified in the press all weekend for supposed changing of his Iraq stand (and they threw in guns and abortion stands) They are peddled by the gop and mcCain to make Obama appear like flipper. The media was too lazy to do any fact checking and just repeated what they were told.<br>In reality it was a lie. Any fool with google and youtube could have checked what Obama's stand was on any of the issues over the past year and half. They would have found he has been consistent on is policy. But, they did not. Instead they trashed the man for something he did not do - flip. He has said the same things on these issues and yet they peddled lies.<br>Same with Wright. Those sermons in complete are really not very controversial. But, the media peddled it to make it look as shocking as possible.<br>You Hillary supporters do not know the half of what the media did to Obama. You think they only did things to Hillary and it was mild to the lies they peddled about Obama.<br>And still are.<br>But, you don't hear us screaming at you guys for not saying anything to stick up for our candidate. or for Hillary not doing so. Because it was not your responsibility or Hillary's. Yet you guys get all pissy at us and Obama because you seem to think it's ours to tell the media. <br>You guys only see one side of things and do not even see any other. And then make all this noise thinking everyone else is suppose to deal with it.<br>I simply am amazed by this. I can give many times that the media trashed obama falsely. And they are doing so now.<br>You are not suppose to criticize McCain and they refuse to tell half of the things about him. Did you know one of his houses was in default a week ago for failure to pay taxes for the past 5 years? A small blurb in Newsweek is all.<br>But, no one hears about that.<br>But they peddle fake stories about supposed position changes of Obama that was indeed lies. And they are still trying to peddle the garbage.<br><br>I would like to know exactly what it is that you can only see Hillary as the only person to vote for and why you dislike obama so much? Have you ever tried to find out anything about the man? What has the Clintons ever done that Makes Hillary the only person viable for the presidency in your eyes.<br>What makes you think Hillary is even capable of the job? What is her record in the senate? most of her work involved naming places after people in honorary parks and buildings. I can email you a list of what Obama has done in the senate. And he has done quite alot of bills that are not getting attention because they were not big name items or 'sexy'. They were things that involved helping everyday people. He introduced several bills to help the people in New orleans to mention one. <br>He doesn't do big and splashy stuff. Just very good and needed legislation for the little guy. <br>You and your fellow hillary supporters have no clue to what Obama is about, what he has done or anything much about the man. You only think of him in terms of speeches. And speaking of speeches. Hillary like to put those down but, she did not seem to mind when Bill made millions off of his speeches. Those empty words and speeches kept her in big houses and comfort quite well. Made her the 109 million dollar woman. But, they are just speeches. just words. If they come from someone else and don't make her millions.<br>I would suggest you do some research before you trash someone you obviously did not try to learn anything about.<br>So, why do you think Hillary is the only person viable to be president and no one else is.<br>diane<br><br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- In Rockford some are like the ones like Wrights.
Have you ever youtubed the whole sermons that those came from. if you listen to the whole sermon you will be quite surprised by how out of context those clips are.
What was wrong was that Rev. Wright got upset over the way the media treated him by not putting those sermons in context and went after them at the press club and tried to hurt Obama on top of it in his anger.
But, the sermons were very much out of context. In reality they are not hate speech and were part of something entirely different.
See, the media likes to give only sound bites and never explains the whole of things which are mostly much tamer then the conflict they are peddling.
Just like this weekend the media spent it tearing down Obama for something that was not true. Obama was vilified in the press all weekend for supposed changing of his Iraq stand (and they threw in guns and abortion stands) They are peddled by the gop and mcCain to make Obama appear like flipper. The media was too lazy to do any fact checking and just repeated what they were told.
In reality it was a lie. Any fool with google and youtube could have checked what Obama's stand was on any of the issues over the past year and half. They would have found he has been consistent on is policy. But, they did not. Instead they trashed the man for something he did not do – flip. He has said the same things on these issues and yet they peddled lies.
Same with Wright. Those sermons in complete are really not very controversial. But, the media peddled it to make it look as shocking as possible.
You Hillary supporters do not know the half of what the media did to Obama. You think they only did things to Hillary and it was mild to the lies they peddled about Obama.
And still are.
But, you don't hear us screaming at you guys for not saying anything to stick up for our candidate. or for Hillary not doing so. Because it was not your responsibility or Hillary's. Yet you guys get all pissy at us and Obama because you seem to think it's ours to tell the media.
You guys only see one side of things and do not even see any other. And then make all this noise thinking everyone else is suppose to deal with it.
I simply am amazed by this. I can give many times that the media trashed obama falsely. And they are doing so now.
You are not suppose to criticize McCain and they refuse to tell half of the things about him. Did you know one of his houses was in default a week ago for failure to pay taxes for the past 5 years? A small blurb in Newsweek is all.
But, no one hears about that.
But they peddle fake stories about supposed position changes of Obama that was indeed lies. And they are still trying to peddle the garbage.

I would like to know exactly what it is that you can only see Hillary as the only person to vote for and why you dislike obama so much? Have you ever tried to find out anything about the man? What has the Clintons ever done that Makes Hillary the only person viable for the presidency in your eyes.
What makes you think Hillary is even capable of the job? What is her record in the senate? most of her work involved naming places after people in honorary parks and buildings. I can email you a list of what Obama has done in the senate. And he has done quite alot of bills that are not getting attention because they were not big name items or 'sexy'. They were things that involved helping everyday people. He introduced several bills to help the people in New orleans to mention one.
He doesn't do big and splashy stuff. Just very good and needed legislation for the little guy.
You and your fellow hillary supporters have no clue to what Obama is about, what he has done or anything much about the man. You only think of him in terms of speeches. And speaking of speeches. Hillary like to put those down but, she did not seem to mind when Bill made millions off of his speeches. Those empty words and speeches kept her in big houses and comfort quite well. Made her the 109 million dollar woman. But, they are just speeches. just words. If they come from someone else and don't make her millions.
I would suggest you do some research before you trash someone you obviously did not try to learn anything about.
So, why do you think Hillary is the only person viable to be president and no one else is.
diane

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]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121980 just4clinton Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:46:12 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121980 I am not sure what type of Black churches your friends go to but they are the type that give Christianity a bad name. I am black and have gone to black churches my whole life and never heard a sermon like that come out of the pulpit. Just because we (black America ) agrees with Wright does not excuse the fact that the pulpit is the worst place to spew such hateful rhetoric. If Wright and other in the black religious community were really interested in bringing these injustices to light surely the pulpit could have been used in a better way. Really his comments coming out of his mouth in a place of worship was really just tacky and low class. We should be rising above that. Is that not what the Obama campaign is truly about?<br><br>It would appear to me after these primaries that since Obama is now playing bring the coalition back together that perhaps he is just as polarizing a figure would it not.<br><br>And when we speak of change lets be clear on what change is. Obama is not going to abolish the very illegal income tax is he? He is not going to dismantle the quite privately owned Federal Reserve (or even bring it to the attention of his citizens that is privately owned and operated and is not federally regulate) is he? He is not going to stop borrowing money from the Federal Reserve with their ridiculous interest rates is he. He can not stop the Rothschilds can he. Does he even know who they are? Do you? If you or Obamas other supporters wanted change you would have voted for Ron Paul. But we don't want change in this country do we. Most of us like Obama are actually afraid of real change because we would not only change the US but the world as we know it.<br><br>I digress now I am not sure what type of Black churches your friends go to but they are the type that give Christianity a bad name. I am black and have gone to black churches my whole life and never heard a sermon like that come out of the pulpit. Just because we (black America ) agrees with Wright does not excuse the fact that the pulpit is the worst place to spew such hateful rhetoric. If Wright and other in the black religious community were really interested in bringing these injustices to light surely the pulpit could have been used in a better way. Really his comments coming out of his mouth in a place of worship was really just tacky and low class. We should be rising above that. Is that not what the Obama campaign is truly about?

It would appear to me after these primaries that since Obama is now playing bring the coalition back together that perhaps he is just as polarizing a figure would it not.

And when we speak of change lets be clear on what change is. Obama is not going to abolish the very illegal income tax is he? He is not going to dismantle the quite privately owned Federal Reserve (or even bring it to the attention of his citizens that is privately owned and operated and is not federally regulate) is he? He is not going to stop borrowing money from the Federal Reserve with their ridiculous interest rates is he. He can not stop the Rothschilds can he. Does he even know who they are? Do you? If you or Obamas other supporters wanted change you would have voted for Ron Paul. But we don't want change in this country do we. Most of us like Obama are actually afraid of real change because we would not only change the US but the world as we know it.

I digress now

]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121963 vwcat Mon, 07 Jul 2008 02:04:05 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121963 I have been gone for a few days so I'm late answering.<br>The whole Wright thing makes me laugh. Only those who are not familiar with the BlackChurch are scandalized. Do people really think that it is all smiles and kisses there. I have too many black friends over the years to be so naive.<br>Besides if Wright was saying those things every sunday for 20 years, why are there only brief snippets of two sermons. 20 seconds. wow. The right makes it sound like it's all sermon every sunday. The man said controversial things twice for a span of 20 seconds. <br>People these days have simply lost common sense and will believe anything. If this was all the time, why is there not more videos out with more stuff? duh.<br>Shrewdness is part of being a very smart person. No person who is successful is not shrewd. It's called savvy as well. To be able to navigate in the world and make it you damn well better be shrewd or you will be eaten alive.<br>But, both democrat and republican, friend or foe in the senate all say the same thing about Obama. he is a brilliant man. Extreemly smart. They all talk about this keen intellect and that is probably one of the smartest people they have ever met.<br>Especially in politics in their careers.<br>The thing that you guys who are all gooey about the 90s is that you are looking back with rose colored glasses after 8 years of Bush. You see things in a prism of romanticized form. The 90s were okay. The peace was a falliacy as we went into Somilia and we went into kosovo and we fought against Bin laden even then and the 93 bombing, the 2000 new years day plot and of course there was Waco and Oklahoma city. Just to name a few. We had home grown terrorism. Remember Atlanta during the Olympics.<br>There was also a bubble created by the internet boom. It was Silicon Valley that created the economic boom years. It just happened during clinton's watch. but, anyone could have been president during that time and would have seen the same thing.<br>I am not saying Clinton was all bad. I am saying he just was not that good. He will be historically rated average. Not in the top ten. Not great. He will be rated average. In the middle. He looks better then he actually was because he had the luck to be followed by the worst president in history who has destroyed the country and economy and our reputation.<br>Just like Coolidge. He was okay. but, ended up looking better then he was for a while because of Hoover.<br>But, clinton was not great. I did hope in 92 that he would be a very good president because he was smart and a savvy pol. But, his personal weaknesses and inability to navigate things without upheaval and his losing the congress brought his presidency lower. but, with all the scandals and dramas and chaos of the clintons, it was their undoing of the 90s. It was not all the right wing doing. Alot was brought on by the clinton's themselves. They simply could not be open and honest. And that just caused more suspicion. But, with the ongoing women problems, the renting out of the Lincoln bedroom like it was the motel 6, the pardons with it's f you air to the country, the lifting of white house furniture and antiques when they left, I was so turned off of politics I became apolitical for awhile. I did not want to know about it or care about it. Every time I saw Gore I associated him with Clinton and I felt nauseated. I refused to vote for Bush who i saw as an idiot. So, I di<br>d not vote in 2000.<br>By 2004, Bush had me so pissed off and angry I got involved again. Partly because of the anti french witch hunt by the republicans. My molther is from France and during that time people hated the french. A french bristro close to my mother's was vandalized and my mom lives alone. I was terrified for her. I always disliked republicans but, i outright hated Bush and republicans for that. For the first time in my life I had a tiny taste of what prejudice was like and it is terrifying. And depressing.<br>Shortly after Kerry lost i discovered blogs and it was so wonderful to find fellow democrats and progressives.<br>But, I think clinton's weaknesses turned off alot of democrats and left us so dispirited by the end of the 90s that many of us were totally turned off and it allowed someone like Bush to win. Many of us just did not feel like voting and felt so depressed by the Clintons that we were left apathetic to Gore. Some voted for nader to retaliate. Some stayed home and we ended up with Bush.<br>I don't excuse my not voting but, that is what happens when you decide to retaliate because you are pissed off and it seems a Clinton is again involved. It seems the Clintons cause so much division and upheaval and splintering where ever they go. In and out of the party. They are walking destructiveness and polarizing influence.<br>Diane<br><br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- I have been gone for a few days so I'm late answering.
The whole Wright thing makes me laugh. Only those who are not familiar with the BlackChurch are scandalized. Do people really think that it is all smiles and kisses there. I have too many black friends over the years to be so naive.
Besides if Wright was saying those things every sunday for 20 years, why are there only brief snippets of two sermons. 20 seconds. wow. The right makes it sound like it's all sermon every sunday. The man said controversial things twice for a span of 20 seconds.
People these days have simply lost common sense and will believe anything. If this was all the time, why is there not more videos out with more stuff? duh.
Shrewdness is part of being a very smart person. No person who is successful is not shrewd. It's called savvy as well. To be able to navigate in the world and make it you damn well better be shrewd or you will be eaten alive.
But, both democrat and republican, friend or foe in the senate all say the same thing about Obama. he is a brilliant man. Extreemly smart. They all talk about this keen intellect and that is probably one of the smartest people they have ever met.
Especially in politics in their careers.
The thing that you guys who are all gooey about the 90s is that you are looking back with rose colored glasses after 8 years of Bush. You see things in a prism of romanticized form. The 90s were okay. The peace was a falliacy as we went into Somilia and we went into kosovo and we fought against Bin laden even then and the 93 bombing, the 2000 new years day plot and of course there was Waco and Oklahoma city. Just to name a few. We had home grown terrorism. Remember Atlanta during the Olympics.
There was also a bubble created by the internet boom. It was Silicon Valley that created the economic boom years. It just happened during clinton's watch. but, anyone could have been president during that time and would have seen the same thing.
I am not saying Clinton was all bad. I am saying he just was not that good. He will be historically rated average. Not in the top ten. Not great. He will be rated average. In the middle. He looks better then he actually was because he had the luck to be followed by the worst president in history who has destroyed the country and economy and our reputation.
Just like Coolidge. He was okay. but, ended up looking better then he was for a while because of Hoover.
But, clinton was not great. I did hope in 92 that he would be a very good president because he was smart and a savvy pol. But, his personal weaknesses and inability to navigate things without upheaval and his losing the congress brought his presidency lower. but, with all the scandals and dramas and chaos of the clintons, it was their undoing of the 90s. It was not all the right wing doing. Alot was brought on by the clinton's themselves. They simply could not be open and honest. And that just caused more suspicion. But, with the ongoing women problems, the renting out of the Lincoln bedroom like it was the motel 6, the pardons with it's f you air to the country, the lifting of white house furniture and antiques when they left, I was so turned off of politics I became apolitical for awhile. I did not want to know about it or care about it. Every time I saw Gore I associated him with Clinton and I felt nauseated. I refused to vote for Bush who i saw as an idiot. So, I di
d not vote in 2000.
By 2004, Bush had me so pissed off and angry I got involved again. Partly because of the anti french witch hunt by the republicans. My molther is from France and during that time people hated the french. A french bristro close to my mother's was vandalized and my mom lives alone. I was terrified for her. I always disliked republicans but, i outright hated Bush and republicans for that. For the first time in my life I had a tiny taste of what prejudice was like and it is terrifying. And depressing.
Shortly after Kerry lost i discovered blogs and it was so wonderful to find fellow democrats and progressives.
But, I think clinton's weaknesses turned off alot of democrats and left us so dispirited by the end of the 90s that many of us were totally turned off and it allowed someone like Bush to win. Many of us just did not feel like voting and felt so depressed by the Clintons that we were left apathetic to Gore. Some voted for nader to retaliate. Some stayed home and we ended up with Bush.
I don't excuse my not voting but, that is what happens when you decide to retaliate because you are pissed off and it seems a Clinton is again involved. It seems the Clintons cause so much division and upheaval and splintering where ever they go. In and out of the party. They are walking destructiveness and polarizing influence.
Diane

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]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121955 just4clinton Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:05:05 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121955 I think that is how a great many people felt. The flip side to that is the amount of peace and prosperity that we saw during just 8 years. The country had never been that well off and while part of it was merely timing...the 90's followed a very unstable economic situation of the 80's the majority of it was the abstract and brilliant political minds of the Clintons<br><br>I do not see brilliance in Obama. I see shrewdness. I see someone that smiles in your face and then stabs you in the back. I could not imagine denouncing the Man who married me and my wife and baptized my children. His best selling book was named after on of Wrights sermons "the audacity of hope" I just don not believe that Obama is just now learning that wright felt the way he does. Surely obama has known this throughout the 20 year relationship they had. I do not trust a person willing to dump their mentor for what the presidency? Obama is a gangsta (and make no mistakes he a gangsta in the true definition of the word people often mistake thugs for gangstas) from chicago's south side who in my opinion would do just about anything to get into office. <br><br>I think Cornell west said it best in his response to barak obama not showing up at Kings memorial this past may when he said "I am in deep disagreement with my dear brother Barak Obama, the truth is in tension with the quest for power". <br><br>Finally I would like to just say that say what you want about Hillary as a politician and a wife, but as a public servant since the day she set foot out of college she has truly made helping the children and the under privileged her life's work. She continues to do so. I think that is how a great many people felt. The flip side to that is the amount of peace and prosperity that we saw during just 8 years. The country had never been that well off and while part of it was merely timing…the 90's followed a very unstable economic situation of the 80's the majority of it was the abstract and brilliant political minds of the Clintons

I do not see brilliance in Obama. I see shrewdness. I see someone that smiles in your face and then stabs you in the back. I could not imagine denouncing the Man who married me and my wife and baptized my children. His best selling book was named after on of Wrights sermons “the audacity of hope” I just don not believe that Obama is just now learning that wright felt the way he does. Surely obama has known this throughout the 20 year relationship they had. I do not trust a person willing to dump their mentor for what the presidency? Obama is a gangsta (and make no mistakes he a gangsta in the true definition of the word people often mistake thugs for gangstas) from chicago's south side who in my opinion would do just about anything to get into office.

I think Cornell west said it best in his response to barak obama not showing up at Kings memorial this past may when he said “I am in deep disagreement with my dear brother Barak Obama, the truth is in tension with the quest for power”.

Finally I would like to just say that say what you want about Hillary as a politician and a wife, but as a public servant since the day she set foot out of college she has truly made helping the children and the under privileged her life's work. She continues to do so.

]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121951 just4clinton Thu, 03 Jul 2008 21:50:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121951 I guess everyone makes up there own version of events. I watch the CSPAN hearing also and it was pointed out that Michigan only moved their primary up AFTER it was made clear by the DNC that New Hampshire would not be penalized for moving theirs up like they were supposed to. Once it was clear New Hampshire would not be penalized Michigan proceeded with their plans.<br><br>Secondly the big Iowa win was not surprise to anyone as Barak Obama and John Edwards removed their name from the Michigan ballot precisely for the purpose of currying favor with IOWA caucuses that threatened all the candidates if they supported Michigan in anyway. The results they finished First and Second! what a surprise!<br><br>Finally you still only continue to prove my point. If all of the voters could not vote before February 5th then no one should have been allowed to. It is not a secret that the lily white states of Iowa and New Hampshire go first and the reason they did not want large states like Michigan and Florida to vote early was because of heavy black and latino populations. The DNC instead offered the much smaller and less consequential states of nevada and south carolina to move up their primaries, but only to dates after Iowa and New Hampshire. This is what you call a civil rights violation. We are entitled to EQUAL treatment under the law.<br><br>And finally do not make up lies. Florida's democratic party actually did protest moving up the election AND asked to hold a caucus after feb 5th so that their vote would count, the republican party of Florida said "hell nah".<br><br>So I guess you could try and convince someone else that the DNC were acting in good faith but lets be serious if they were they would have followed the original rules and only stripped each states of half the delegates not all. Additionally they would have penalized new hampshire and Iowa who were also breaking the rules except that we allowed them to break the rules. According to the by laws NO ONE is supposed to go before Feb 5th. <br><br>And you also sound silly. If Hillary wanted to rush all the primaries up then it seems to me that she saw Obama as very REAL competition. I guess everyone makes up there own version of events. I watch the CSPAN hearing also and it was pointed out that Michigan only moved their primary up AFTER it was made clear by the DNC that New Hampshire would not be penalized for moving theirs up like they were supposed to. Once it was clear New Hampshire would not be penalized Michigan proceeded with their plans.

Secondly the big Iowa win was not surprise to anyone as Barak Obama and John Edwards removed their name from the Michigan ballot precisely for the purpose of currying favor with IOWA caucuses that threatened all the candidates if they supported Michigan in anyway. The results they finished First and Second! what a surprise!

Finally you still only continue to prove my point. If all of the voters could not vote before February 5th then no one should have been allowed to. It is not a secret that the lily white states of Iowa and New Hampshire go first and the reason they did not want large states like Michigan and Florida to vote early was because of heavy black and latino populations. The DNC instead offered the much smaller and less consequential states of nevada and south carolina to move up their primaries, but only to dates after Iowa and New Hampshire. This is what you call a civil rights violation. We are entitled to EQUAL treatment under the law.

And finally do not make up lies. Florida's democratic party actually did protest moving up the election AND asked to hold a caucus after feb 5th so that their vote would count, the republican party of Florida said “hell nah”.

So I guess you could try and convince someone else that the DNC were acting in good faith but lets be serious if they were they would have followed the original rules and only stripped each states of half the delegates not all. Additionally they would have penalized new hampshire and Iowa who were also breaking the rules except that we allowed them to break the rules. According to the by laws NO ONE is supposed to go before Feb 5th.

And you also sound silly. If Hillary wanted to rush all the primaries up then it seems to me that she saw Obama as very REAL competition.

]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121946 vwcat Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:01:04 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121946 This president totally sucks.<br>Anyway, two things.<br>one. I do think alot of my prejudice towards Hillary has to do with Bill. I was reading something and it occurred to me that many times I'd think about a Hillary presidency and try to picture swearing in day and the evening celebrations and would feel nauseated. I realized it was the thought of Bill was what bugged me.<br>i don't want that man back in the white house and in front of the cameras. <br>Not just his affairs. His pardons really pissed me off as it seemed like he was just saying f you to the country with those.<br>Other things as well and all those dubious trips with his influence peddling the past few years. <br>He is just sleazy.<br>i may have been able to accept Hillary, even not minded her as president, if she did not have Bill with her.<br>She would have been a better candidate and politician without him.<br>She is stronger and might have lost some of the sleazier things she picked up from him. She needed to dump people from the 90s like Mark Penn for sure.<br>And I think alot of the resistance to Hillary by alot of Obama people was Bill. The lefty netroots it was Bill.<br>Two, I watched Obama over the year. I have a good idea about people. The one thing I always was struck by was his doing things so unconventional wisdom. He is definitely underestimated, especially by the press that keeps trying to put him in a box but, he is not of the era that the press uses as reference. He is new generation.<br>I use to work in social services and see things that come out of that that Obama uses. And his whole thing is rooted in that world. His policies and thinking is rooted there.<br>Mostly, I do like the brilliant mind he has. This is not just an intelligent person. This is someone who is brilliant.<br>Alot of people in chicago who knew him always talked about him being scary smart. Brilliant.<br>And not someone who is about the partisanship of the 90s. He is not ideological. He is very practical. His politics is not about 'gotcha' and the old wars of the baby boomers. <br>Like the baby boomers on the right keep bringing up William Ayres. For one the guy is respected and a person who works alot of charity boards in the city and has worked with people on the left and right and has worked with the mayor even on some boards. But, anyway, the man was from the culture wars of the 60s. To Obama that is ancient history. The weathermen mean nothing to him. Obama is of the 80s. 3 day concerts is not woodstock but, Live Aid to him. It's like asking a boomer of the 60s to relate to the depression of the 30s. <br>So, for Obama, all that culture war stuff is simply nothing to him. <br>It's like that 'whitey; lie that they tried to say Michelle said. Whitey is a 60s term. She is of the 80s. No one used that old school term in the 80s. It's like saying a 60s person is using the term boogey woogey or flapper.<br>And that is where the right will trip up this election. they will keep using the boomer tactics on a person who is post boomer. Gen x.<br>Diane<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- This president totally sucks.
Anyway, two things.
one. I do think alot of my prejudice towards Hillary has to do with Bill. I was reading something and it occurred to me that many times I'd think about a Hillary presidency and try to picture swearing in day and the evening celebrations and would feel nauseated. I realized it was the thought of Bill was what bugged me.
i don't want that man back in the white house and in front of the cameras.
Not just his affairs. His pardons really pissed me off as it seemed like he was just saying f you to the country with those.
Other things as well and all those dubious trips with his influence peddling the past few years.
He is just sleazy.
i may have been able to accept Hillary, even not minded her as president, if she did not have Bill with her.
She would have been a better candidate and politician without him.
She is stronger and might have lost some of the sleazier things she picked up from him. She needed to dump people from the 90s like Mark Penn for sure.
And I think alot of the resistance to Hillary by alot of Obama people was Bill. The lefty netroots it was Bill.
Two, I watched Obama over the year. I have a good idea about people. The one thing I always was struck by was his doing things so unconventional wisdom. He is definitely underestimated, especially by the press that keeps trying to put him in a box but, he is not of the era that the press uses as reference. He is new generation.
I use to work in social services and see things that come out of that that Obama uses. And his whole thing is rooted in that world. His policies and thinking is rooted there.
Mostly, I do like the brilliant mind he has. This is not just an intelligent person. This is someone who is brilliant.
Alot of people in chicago who knew him always talked about him being scary smart. Brilliant.
And not someone who is about the partisanship of the 90s. He is not ideological. He is very practical. His politics is not about 'gotcha' and the old wars of the baby boomers.
Like the baby boomers on the right keep bringing up William Ayres. For one the guy is respected and a person who works alot of charity boards in the city and has worked with people on the left and right and has worked with the mayor even on some boards. But, anyway, the man was from the culture wars of the 60s. To Obama that is ancient history. The weathermen mean nothing to him. Obama is of the 80s. 3 day concerts is not woodstock but, Live Aid to him. It's like asking a boomer of the 60s to relate to the depression of the 30s.
So, for Obama, all that culture war stuff is simply nothing to him.
It's like that 'whitey; lie that they tried to say Michelle said. Whitey is a 60s term. She is of the 80s. No one used that old school term in the 80s. It's like saying a 60s person is using the term boogey woogey or flapper.
And that is where the right will trip up this election. they will keep using the boomer tactics on a person who is post boomer. Gen x.
Diane
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]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121940 vwcat Wed, 02 Jul 2008 05:39:03 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121940 Actually, Florida was warned several times to not move it up. The democratic party voted with the republicans 100 percent to move it without any protest.<br>They even went before the DNC and testified and the DNC offered several times to help them. <br>florida democratic party instead turned defiant. I saw the hearing on Cspan.<br>Then, Michigan wanted to move after Florida was already penalized and still did it after several warnings.<br>In reality there was a deal with many in the state parties to stampede to the front to end the primaries early. <br>You may not believe it but, most of the state parties were working with the Clintons to move this up. It has been admitted to by Clinton surrogates. The move up to the 5th was to front load so no one could have a chance and Hillary would be finished by the 5th. That was the plan.<br>No one could foresee the strength of Obama. Only Illinois move up for Obama to off set by the party here a complete route by Hillary that day.<br>Then Florida and Michigan wanted to leapfrog. Many were backers of clinton. I know a person in the party in florida and the idea was to give her a big early win.<br>Alot of democrats in the state parties owed their careers to the Clintons and the 90s. They owed Hillary. That was one big reason why Hillary kept saying she did not think she would have to go much more after the 5th and dropped hints that the 5th was going to be the end of the primaries. Why she did not manage all that money for the possibility of after the 5th or had any plans for after the 5th.<br>It is not illegal or anything. The states frontloaded to help her and end the primary early and no one thought anything of it. But, Michigan and Florida leapfrogged for money and to give her a big amount of delegates to go into the 5th primed. That was what was wrong. The states could and did move to the 5th and even if was to help out Hillary it was within the rules.<br>What went wrong was that Obama came roaring out of a 20 point down to a big iowa win when he hit the Jefferson Jackson dinner. that was his big beginning. He had been organizing under the radar all the these states during the summer and early fall. Then at the JJ Dinner he came out to run hard and served noticed with his speech.<br>Then won in Iowa. Since already had organized in so many states ahead of time, he basically took the ball and ran.<br>That is what happened and how Hillary got caught unprepared and unable to compete in Feb.<br>The whole thing was suppose to be hers and she was suppose to be nominated on the 5th. When Obama beat her and then, tied her on the 5th, she was without money, resources and a plan for afterward. <br>she never had a plan b in case. Because she ran at 20 to 30 ahead all summer and fall. Things and voters changed overnight.<br>The Obama camp planned in the beginning to run for delegates and organized under the radar all summer. Plouffe was the best in the business and laid out how he thought it should go. He leaked it to the press as a diguised 'accidentally leaked memo' and it laid out how he saw they would run in the states. And they felt it would go to the end in a delegate fight. His memo was about 96% percent right. He did not think they would win Maine and thought they would get S. Dakota.<br>But, they organized with grassroots and local people in the states and Plouffe was a master of the caucus. He knew them better than anyone. He worked for Harkin who taught him caucuses back in 92.<br>So, while it seemed Obama was not doing alot in the summer he was organizing with his Camp Obama (training was in chicago all summer) and alot of the leaders in this part of his campaign were community organizers he use to work with in Chicago.<br>That is how they got the jump on HIllary. Obama and his campaign ran with his organizing background and former co workers. And he had some of the best people in campaigns with his manager Plouffe for one.<br>Hillary ran a top down campaign with alot of old loyalist who did not have experience in running a campaign but were connected to inside Washington.<br>That is what happened.<br>But, I found this in the Guardian and it seemed like an article you'd love. It sounds like it was written by PUMAs. lol.<br>Thought you would enjoy it and thought I'd send it your way.<br><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/01/hillaryclinton.uselections2008">http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/ju...</a><br>diane<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- Actually, Florida was warned several times to not move it up. The democratic party voted with the republicans 100 percent to move it without any protest.
They even went before the DNC and testified and the DNC offered several times to help them.
florida democratic party instead turned defiant. I saw the hearing on Cspan.
Then, Michigan wanted to move after Florida was already penalized and still did it after several warnings.
In reality there was a deal with many in the state parties to stampede to the front to end the primaries early.
You may not believe it but, most of the state parties were working with the Clintons to move this up. It has been admitted to by Clinton surrogates. The move up to the 5th was to front load so no one could have a chance and Hillary would be finished by the 5th. That was the plan.
No one could foresee the strength of Obama. Only Illinois move up for Obama to off set by the party here a complete route by Hillary that day.
Then Florida and Michigan wanted to leapfrog. Many were backers of clinton. I know a person in the party in florida and the idea was to give her a big early win.
Alot of democrats in the state parties owed their careers to the Clintons and the 90s. They owed Hillary. That was one big reason why Hillary kept saying she did not think she would have to go much more after the 5th and dropped hints that the 5th was going to be the end of the primaries. Why she did not manage all that money for the possibility of after the 5th or had any plans for after the 5th.
It is not illegal or anything. The states frontloaded to help her and end the primary early and no one thought anything of it. But, Michigan and Florida leapfrogged for money and to give her a big amount of delegates to go into the 5th primed. That was what was wrong. The states could and did move to the 5th and even if was to help out Hillary it was within the rules.
What went wrong was that Obama came roaring out of a 20 point down to a big iowa win when he hit the Jefferson Jackson dinner. that was his big beginning. He had been organizing under the radar all the these states during the summer and early fall. Then at the JJ Dinner he came out to run hard and served noticed with his speech.
Then won in Iowa. Since already had organized in so many states ahead of time, he basically took the ball and ran.
That is what happened and how Hillary got caught unprepared and unable to compete in Feb.
The whole thing was suppose to be hers and she was suppose to be nominated on the 5th. When Obama beat her and then, tied her on the 5th, she was without money, resources and a plan for afterward.
she never had a plan b in case. Because she ran at 20 to 30 ahead all summer and fall. Things and voters changed overnight.
The Obama camp planned in the beginning to run for delegates and organized under the radar all summer. Plouffe was the best in the business and laid out how he thought it should go. He leaked it to the press as a diguised 'accidentally leaked memo' and it laid out how he saw they would run in the states. And they felt it would go to the end in a delegate fight. His memo was about 96% percent right. He did not think they would win Maine and thought they would get S. Dakota.
But, they organized with grassroots and local people in the states and Plouffe was a master of the caucus. He knew them better than anyone. He worked for Harkin who taught him caucuses back in 92.
So, while it seemed Obama was not doing alot in the summer he was organizing with his Camp Obama (training was in chicago all summer) and alot of the leaders in this part of his campaign were community organizers he use to work with in Chicago.
That is how they got the jump on HIllary. Obama and his campaign ran with his organizing background and former co workers. And he had some of the best people in campaigns with his manager Plouffe for one.
Hillary ran a top down campaign with alot of old loyalist who did not have experience in running a campaign but were connected to inside Washington.
That is what happened.
But, I found this in the Guardian and it seemed like an article you'd love. It sounds like it was written by PUMAs. lol.
Thought you would enjoy it and thought I'd send it your way.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/ju...
diane
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]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121939 just4clinton Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:37:11 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121939 I agree. I have actually very much enjoyed our back and forth. What is interesting to me is that all the rhetoric you speak about Hillary sounds exactly like what the right wing and republicans have been saying and putting out there for years and you don't take it with even the smallest grain of salt. But that is okay because most people believe the lies. Can you imagine what it might be like to be her?<br><br>As far as Pelosi goes I too cheered when she took the gravel, but like so many others she has abused that power. Don't you see most of us are not angry with or at Obama. We are angry with the DNC. Nancy Pelosi was tactless and distasteful for her part in the primaries so bad that after being foolish enough to suggest Hillary leave the race early, she had to recant and say that she be allowed to finish the contest that remained. <br><br>In any event you are failing to realize that the democratic party stole the basic right to Americans. The right to have their vote counted and it was cast and that is not what happened in Michigan or Florida (and please don't tell me about the rules because the initial stripping of the delegates and votes is what I am talking about.) My grandparents (yes the lived threw the Civil rights how about yours?) did not get beat, maimed, hosed or bitten by dogs so that people like Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean could tell me that if I voted in Florida or Michigan this year that the vote would not count! And Obama's taking his name of the ballot (to curry favor in Iowa) was a slap in the face. Kinda like him not showing up at Dr. Kings memorial or the Black state of the Union address but I'm sure you did not take offense that either for Jesus ah hem excuse me Obama can do no wrong. WAKE UP and see this politician for the one he truly is. I agree. I have actually very much enjoyed our back and forth. What is interesting to me is that all the rhetoric you speak about Hillary sounds exactly like what the right wing and republicans have been saying and putting out there for years and you don't take it with even the smallest grain of salt. But that is okay because most people believe the lies. Can you imagine what it might be like to be her?

As far as Pelosi goes I too cheered when she took the gravel, but like so many others she has abused that power. Don't you see most of us are not angry with or at Obama. We are angry with the DNC. Nancy Pelosi was tactless and distasteful for her part in the primaries so bad that after being foolish enough to suggest Hillary leave the race early, she had to recant and say that she be allowed to finish the contest that remained.

In any event you are failing to realize that the democratic party stole the basic right to Americans. The right to have their vote counted and it was cast and that is not what happened in Michigan or Florida (and please don't tell me about the rules because the initial stripping of the delegates and votes is what I am talking about.) My grandparents (yes the lived threw the Civil rights how about yours?) did not get beat, maimed, hosed or bitten by dogs so that people like Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean could tell me that if I voted in Florida or Michigan this year that the vote would not count! And Obama's taking his name of the ballot (to curry favor in Iowa) was a slap in the face. Kinda like him not showing up at Dr. Kings memorial or the Black state of the Union address but I'm sure you did not take offense that either for Jesus ah hem excuse me Obama can do no wrong. WAKE UP and see this politician for the one he truly is.

]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121933 just4clinton Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:25:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121933 I assume Diane you are a female from your name. It is so unfortunate when women internalize their sexism. What you have basically said in this post is that nothing Hillary has done has been her own doing and that she owes all of her progress to her HUSBAND? That is the epitome of sexism. Did you ever stop and think perhaps he made it as far as he did because of her? What you don't know or care not to acknowledge is that for many many years she refused to even use her married name. Remember when he (Bill) lost the governors race in Arkansas? It was Hillary who helped him score the win the next go round by changing her professional last name from Rodham to Clinton under intense pressure to do so. Women (and men) like you are the reason she never wanted to use the name Clinton professionally.<br><br>I will not assume your race based on your name but if you are black then again I must ask of you to stop internalizing your racism. Why is it so hard fathom that perhaps two of our presidents have been BLACK??? Especially Lincoln? Is the idea that far fetched? Well guess what white men have raped our women for Generations dear and many a bi-racial child was made so if you think that there is no merit to the idea that Lincoln who even had black features (like harding, and I thank you for the correction and even Jefferson for that matter) then I won't even waste my breath. Do the research and use the same open mind you are asking of me.<br><br>You ignorance is starting to prevail. When you ask the question "I suppose you believe obama is gay and a muslim" you make yourself sound very very bigoted. Lets suppose for a moment that I thought both were true (which I don't) you are making an assumption that I find fault with either homosexuality or the muslim religion. If I did believe that Obama was Gay then I would actually vote for him in a heartbeat because electing an openly gay candidate would really be change that I could believe in! And if I do think he is muslim are you assuming that I didn't vote for him because of that? What if I am both Gay and a muslim? It seems to me that for someone you consider a walking UN he keeps quite a few prejudice bigots about him, from reverend Wright to Reverend Meeks and its is appearing from your post even an average supporter such as yourself! I suppose we can blame Hillary and Penn for Wrights and Meeks remarks right? Of course when all else fail blame Hillary we always do.<br><br>While I agree with you that the campaign may have made some mistakes I don't know if it is fair for you to call it any type of failure. She managed to inspire 18 million voters. The race was 50/50 which means she mobilized just as many voters as Obama and to suggest all of her supports are disillusioned or somehow hoodwinked by a false character created by her husband then how do you explain the support she received from prominent political figures and civil rights activist such as Charles Rangel of NY who has worked with her for over 30 years (and I dare you to say something bad about Rangel, who by the way is actually the person who made sure she got the NY senate seat, not Bill, as he is the most powerful figure in NY politics)? I know this because I live in NY. <br><br>Additionally if you continue to suggest that the only reason Hillary lost is because she screwed up her campaign then you only continue to give my cause reason. The reason she lost is because people VOTED! You are suggesting that voting had nothing to do with the outcome and strategy and money had everything to do with it. When you say she blew a 20 point lead you belittle what Obama actually accomplished and prove the point of how weak of a candidate he is. The implication there is that he won because she lost. Chose your words more carefully. <br><br>Finally before Hillary was even with Bill she was featured in LIFE magazine, I believe the year was 68' I could be wrong. I hate to break it to you but the world had already recognize a rising political star who just happened to be in a skirt. So much for Him having created her...I think it is more the other way around.<br><br>Finally my issues have nothing to do with Obama or Hillary but with the decisions made by the DNC that were marginalizing, disenfranchising and unconstitutional from the very beginning. I would have gladly voted Obama as a young black man but I was force fed him and don't like for either party make me feel as if I have to chose who they want me to chose that is not democracy! Bush was forced on me for TWO terms I will not allow Barak to be shoved down my throat just because he is young, black and a democrat. Cynthia Mckinney's name will also be on the ballot and I think she is a much more honest and hard working politician who doesn't have to sell out or uncle tom to try and bring about REAL change. I assume Diane you are a female from your name. It is so unfortunate when women internalize their sexism. What you have basically said in this post is that nothing Hillary has done has been her own doing and that she owes all of her progress to her HUSBAND? That is the epitome of sexism. Did you ever stop and think perhaps he made it as far as he did because of her? What you don't know or care not to acknowledge is that for many many years she refused to even use her married name. Remember when he (Bill) lost the governors race in Arkansas? It was Hillary who helped him score the win the next go round by changing her professional last name from Rodham to Clinton under intense pressure to do so. Women (and men) like you are the reason she never wanted to use the name Clinton professionally.

I will not assume your race based on your name but if you are black then again I must ask of you to stop internalizing your racism. Why is it so hard fathom that perhaps two of our presidents have been BLACK??? Especially Lincoln? Is the idea that far fetched? Well guess what white men have raped our women for Generations dear and many a bi-racial child was made so if you think that there is no merit to the idea that Lincoln who even had black features (like harding, and I thank you for the correction and even Jefferson for that matter) then I won't even waste my breath. Do the research and use the same open mind you are asking of me.

You ignorance is starting to prevail. When you ask the question “I suppose you believe obama is gay and a muslim” you make yourself sound very very bigoted. Lets suppose for a moment that I thought both were true (which I don't) you are making an assumption that I find fault with either homosexuality or the muslim religion. If I did believe that Obama was Gay then I would actually vote for him in a heartbeat because electing an openly gay candidate would really be change that I could believe in! And if I do think he is muslim are you assuming that I didn't vote for him because of that? What if I am both Gay and a muslim? It seems to me that for someone you consider a walking UN he keeps quite a few prejudice bigots about him, from reverend Wright to Reverend Meeks and its is appearing from your post even an average supporter such as yourself! I suppose we can blame Hillary and Penn for Wrights and Meeks remarks right? Of course when all else fail blame Hillary we always do.

While I agree with you that the campaign may have made some mistakes I don't know if it is fair for you to call it any type of failure. She managed to inspire 18 million voters. The race was 50/50 which means she mobilized just as many voters as Obama and to suggest all of her supports are disillusioned or somehow hoodwinked by a false character created by her husband then how do you explain the support she received from prominent political figures and civil rights activist such as Charles Rangel of NY who has worked with her for over 30 years (and I dare you to say something bad about Rangel, who by the way is actually the person who made sure she got the NY senate seat, not Bill, as he is the most powerful figure in NY politics)? I know this because I live in NY.

Additionally if you continue to suggest that the only reason Hillary lost is because she screwed up her campaign then you only continue to give my cause reason. The reason she lost is because people VOTED! You are suggesting that voting had nothing to do with the outcome and strategy and money had everything to do with it. When you say she blew a 20 point lead you belittle what Obama actually accomplished and prove the point of how weak of a candidate he is. The implication there is that he won because she lost. Chose your words more carefully.

Finally before Hillary was even with Bill she was featured in LIFE magazine, I believe the year was 68' I could be wrong. I hate to break it to you but the world had already recognize a rising political star who just happened to be in a skirt. So much for Him having created her…I think it is more the other way around.

Finally my issues have nothing to do with Obama or Hillary but with the decisions made by the DNC that were marginalizing, disenfranchising and unconstitutional from the very beginning. I would have gladly voted Obama as a young black man but I was force fed him and don't like for either party make me feel as if I have to chose who they want me to chose that is not democracy! Bush was forced on me for TWO terms I will not allow Barak to be shoved down my throat just because he is young, black and a democrat. Cynthia Mckinney's name will also be on the ballot and I think she is a much more honest and hard working politician who doesn't have to sell out or uncle tom to try and bring about REAL change.

]]> By: just4clinton http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121926 just4clinton Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:48:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121926 That is interesting because I think the last President we had was a Slouch so I suppose they do just let anyone become the President. That is interesting because I think the last President we had was a Slouch so I suppose they do just let anyone become the President.

]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121925 vwcat Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:33:04 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121925 my email address is changing. it got taken over by comcast so it's now <br><a href="mailto:Greenbug2@comcast.net">Greenbug2@comcast.net</a>.<br>In a few days my old address won't be able to be used. I changed it on disqus.<br>diane<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- my email address is changing. it got taken over by comcast so it's now
Greenbug2@comcast.net.
In a few days my old address won't be able to be used. I changed it on disqus.
diane
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]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121916 vwcat Tue, 01 Jul 2008 17:46:08 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121916 I saw this on Huffington Post.<br>I thought this might give you a little insight into a man you may concider just some black guy running for office.<br>Many seem to fortget that Obama is not just black but, half white, his sister is half white and half asian and his brother in law is Chinese canadian. He had a brother in law from his half sister from Africa who was a titled guy in England (they are now divorced).<br>The man is a walking UN. connected to all these countries on a personal basis.<br>A world citizen.<br>Also, you don't get to be the president of the Harvard law review by being some slouch or even just average.<br>Or graduate from Harvard law school cum laud being just average.<br><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/01/obamas-sister-his-surroga_n_110171.html#postComment">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/01/obamas...</a><br>diane<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- I saw this on Huffington Post.
I thought this might give you a little insight into a man you may concider just some black guy running for office.
Many seem to fortget that Obama is not just black but, half white, his sister is half white and half asian and his brother in law is Chinese canadian. He had a brother in law from his half sister from Africa who was a titled guy in England (they are now divorced).
The man is a walking UN. connected to all these countries on a personal basis.
A world citizen.
Also, you don't get to be the president of the Harvard law review by being some slouch or even just average.
Or graduate from Harvard law school cum laud being just average.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/01/obamas...
diane
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]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121908 vwcat Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:13:06 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121908 Sorry to email so much but, i found this and thought you should look at it.<br>I was looking for a list of legislation of Obama's as I have seen it printed on the blogs and thought you should look at the sheer volumn of it. It might make you feel better after November 4th.<br>But, came across this from Obsidian Wings and thought it was something really good in breaking some of this down and about the man and his work in the US Senate.<br>It was from 2006 so it was before Obama got in the running and there was only talk about it.<br>So the post is not from a supporter or anyone big about the man. Just a piece of unbaised run down:<br><br><a href="http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2006/10/barack_obama.html">http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2...</a><br><br>diane<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- Sorry to email so much but, i found this and thought you should look at it.
I was looking for a list of legislation of Obama's as I have seen it printed on the blogs and thought you should look at the sheer volumn of it. It might make you feel better after November 4th.
But, came across this from Obsidian Wings and thought it was something really good in breaking some of this down and about the man and his work in the US Senate.
It was from 2006 so it was before Obama got in the running and there was only talk about it.
So the post is not from a supporter or anyone big about the man. Just a piece of unbaised run down:

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2...

diane
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]]> By: vwcat http://themoderatevoice.com/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/comment-page-1/#comment-121907 vwcat Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:05:07 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/progressives/20692/why-bill-and-certain-hillary-supporters-should-let-hillary-drive-the-car/#comment-121907 I do have to say it is interesting writing to you. <br>It is interesting to see how people who were such hard core Hillary people feel and think. And let's me, an Obama supporter try to explain the misinformation that was spread during the campaign.<br>I don't expect you to ever like or accept Obama. I don't expect you to ever even like the man a little. But, it is good to try to clear up misinformation.<br>It's like, I do like to try to find righwingers to try to understand them and why they are the way they are why they are so hostile.<br>I am outspoken and being half french, I do get angry but, I do hope while we go back and forth some form of understanding develops. some truth gets spread.<br>I also like to see how people who disagree with me think and feel and why. And if there is some kind of way to see if that can be talked out, hashed out and argued and end up with some kind of road where we do agree.<br>I must admit I am curious as to why some who supported Hillary became so hard core and so angry. Why they have such a wall built up resist any kind of ;unity'. I remember when Edwards dropped out. His supporters were so passionate. and yet they were so open and able to deal with what happened. Yet, I find some of Hillary';s are having such a hard time.<br>And why, if they are so about this being a woman breaking the 'glass ceiling' thing, they are so hateful towards Pelosi. Speaker of the house and a fantastic woman. I adore Pelosi. Look up to her. A woman who is so classy and tough. Smart and can kick around those men and scare the republicans. And look fantastic doing it.<br>Yet, Hillary's supporters hate her. wow. she is the original ceiling breaker and I cheered when she took that gavel.<br>All summer in 2006 I kept hoping that Pelosi would become speaker. I thought her marvelous.<br>diane.<br> -------------- Original message ---------------------- I do have to say it is interesting writing to you.
It is interesting to see how people who were such hard core Hillary people feel and think. And let's me, an Obama supporter try to explain the misinformation that was spread during the campaign.
I don't expect you to ever like or accept Obama. I don't expect you to ever even like the man a little. But, it is good to try to clear up misinformation.
It's like, I do like to try to find righwingers to try to understand them and why they are the way they are why they are so hostile.
I am outspoken and being half french, I do get angry but, I do hope while we go back and forth some form of understanding develops. some truth gets spread.
I also like to see how people who disagree with me think and feel and why. And if there is some kind of way to see if that can be talked out, hashed out and argued and end up with some kind of road where we do agree.
I must admit I am curious as to why some who supported Hillary became so hard core and so angry. Why they have such a wall built up resist any kind of ;unity'. I remember when Edwards dropped out. His supporters were so passionate. and yet they were so open and able to deal with what happened. Yet, I find some of Hillary';s are having such a hard time.
And why, if they are so about this being a woman breaking the 'glass ceiling' thing, they are so hateful towards Pelosi. Speaker of the house and a fantastic woman. I adore Pelosi. Look up to her. A woman who is so classy and tough. Smart and can kick around those men and scare the republicans. And look fantastic doing it.
Yet, Hillary's supporters hate her. wow. she is the original ceiling breaker and I cheered when she took that gavel.
All summer in 2006 I kept hoping that Pelosi would become speaker. I thought her marvelous.
diane.
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