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Why Bill — and Certain Hillary Supporters — Should Let Hillary Drive the Car

Don’t get me wrong. In my opinion — and as a Clinton supporter, I followed the exchanges extremely closely while they were happening— Bill Clinton has every right to be angry about the way Hillary was treated by the Obama campaign.  I don’t think his anger is productive, mind you; and I think he is undermining Hillary’s chances.  But if Hillary values her political career, she needs to give Bill a time out. 

Hillary, as a mature woman, knows the best way to prove someone wrong is just to prove them wrong. You don’t get there by sulking in your tent or complaining; you get there by rising above the slurs and gossip, as Clinton-supporter and lifelong civil rights activist Maya Angelou advised Hillary to do in this poem.  Bill used to know how to rise above the fray. Why isn’t he doing it now? I can understand why he would be wounded by the racism charges. To accuse someone of being a racist — a vile thing for a person to be — is, by definition, to accuse them of vileness. It is a grave insult. It seems to be principally these allegations that are fueling Bill Clinton’s outrage and wounded feelings. Most of us would feel the same.

Even so, he needs move on —for his own and Hillary’s sakes.  

Instead, he’s engaging in the pointless exercise of trying to get Obama to concede that his campaign deliberately engaged in, and benefited from, unjustified personal attacks against Hillary. He wants some sort of concession. It’s hard to see that happening.

Clinton has not been hesitant to make his feelings…known far and wide.

"I think that they [the Obama campaign] played the race card on me," Clinton told Philadelphia radio station WHYY on April 22. "We now know, from memos from the campaign, that they planned to do it along."

On June 2, Clinton told Huffington Post Off The Bus Reporter Mayhill Fowler:

"They had all these people standing up in this church cheering, calling Hillary a white racist, and he [Obama] didn’t do anything about it. The first day he said ‘Ah, ah, ah well.’ Because that’s what they do– he gets other people to slime her."  (HuffPost)

What he said about the memo is true, according to this piece at HuffPost. The rest of what Clinton said is also true according to me, though I don’t expect to convince any diehard Obama supporters of this.  I know that there are people out there who fell for the argument that the Clintons were trying to use Obama’s race against him. My colleagues and I addressed the race card crap here, here, and here (and elsewhere as well). 

But if Obama supporters, not to mention others, can’t see this for the abject nonsense it was then, they are not going to see it now.  I mean, come on — two weeks ago, normally reasonable people were gleefully accusing Hillary of accidentally-on-purpose expressing a hope that Obama would be assassinated.

Even Republicans thought the Obama crowd were taking it a bit far.  My mother, who till recently always hated Hillary, thought they were taking it too far.  Women throughout the Democratic party thought so and still know so.

So I can understand why Bill feels the way he does; I just can’t understand why he is letting people see it.  Because the following, reported by the British paper The Telegraph, isn’t good for Hillary. 

A senior Democrat who worked for Mr Clinton has revealed that he recently told   friends Mr Obama could "kiss my ass" in return for his support.

Forget the party; I can see why Bill Clinton would be angry with the powers that be, even if Thomas B. Edsall would have me write it off as mere petulance. But Hillary is one of the Democratic party’s chief assets and — I believe — has benefited tremendously from having her profile raised. 

So Bill needs to settle down. I get why he and others are angry at the way the Obama campaign contrived to brand Hillary with a big white ‘R’ and at the way that Obama supporters who weren’t too stupid or partisan  to believe it pretended to believe it.   (It was the ones who were pretending that made me crazy; the ones who really did believe it are too young, too ignorant about the Clintons and their history, too insanely partisan, or too dumb to bother about.) 

Sadly, that’s the way the Democratic primaries went:  a chance remark would be picked up, examined for nonexistent content, pumped up by lifelong Clinton-haters or Obama’s allies, and exhibited round the world as proof of some scurrilous belief or latent evil intent on the part of Hillary and Bill. 

That some actually pretended to be horrified by the assassination crap as well shows exactly how far some people were willing to go to try to discredit Hillary.  I mean, one of Obama’s aids compared Bill Clinton to Joseph McCarthy.

And of course Bill Clinton has another reason for feeling ill-used. Somehow, during the course of the primaries, his whole generally successful administration was reframed as something quite different from what most of us who were there experienced. Clinton was  the only Democratic president since well-meaning but useless Jimmy Carter.  Those of us who were sentient/paying attention in those days remember his reign as a time of peace, prosperity, jolly carnality, Seinfeld, and hysterical, red-faced Republicans — some of whom have since had to resign for various degrees of misconduct, may I say  — having conniptions over the Big Chief’s sexual escapades.  Oh and no war crimes or Halliburton.

But — if Bill calms down — I fully expect not only that Hillary will prove everyone wrong but that within a few months, people throughout the party will be re-examining this campaign to ask, ‘What were we thinking?’

By letting his understandable anger show, he is delaying the time when this could happen and giving opponents in the party the chance to ‘loftily’ dismiss him.  So shut up, please, Bill.  I love you, but you need to chill out and let Hillary drive the car for a bit.  She knows exactly where she’s going.

The same goes for any supporters of Hillary who really do support her.  Strangely, some who are who most devoted advocates don’t seem to see that their continued defiance of Obama and bitterness at his supporters isn’t really what she needs. 

I don’t mean that they shouldn’t remain critical of Obama; as Democrats, we should call him out when he disappoints us. .Many of his biggest advocates among progressives are not shy about letting it be known that they feel let down.

On the other hand:  letting McCain win would endorse the GOP’s shameful record under the Bush administration and gives comfort to those who desperately want to believe that Bush might have been right about something.  I am staggered at the number of people who tell me that it’s worth ‘only four years’ of McCain to signify their displeasure at Obama.  Four years?  In political time, four years is practically an eon.  Look at the damage Bush managed to do in his first term.  Look at the damage he’s done since.

As for Obama, I hate to admit it, but Joe Klein  is right.  I hate it when that happens.

[I]t’s probably time to swallow his pride and give the Big Dog a call, perhaps under the guise of asking specific policy advice… and then Obama should casually let slip that he doesn’t at all consider Clinton a racist, and never has. Maybe a joke, "I’m looking forward to becoming the second black President…"(Swampland).

While I can’t agree with Klein that Obama has been making ‘a lot of the right moves since nailing down the nomination’, Obama should probably make this clear, and not only to Bill Clinton.  But somehow I don’t think he will. 

I think that’s up to Hillary.  And Bill, as well as some of the Hillary supporters who won’t let go, are simply delaying the moment of her ultimate vindication.  Come on, guys — don’t drive angry.  Let Hillary take the wheel.

CROSS-POSTED AT BUCK NAKED POLITICS

  • vwcat
    Excuse me but how exactly did Obama mistreat Hillary. she is an adult and politician. If she wants to play in the big time then, she can be expected to be treated like any of her male rivals - if you believe in equality.
    However, given that, she was treated for the most part with kid gloves while she threw the kitchen sink and all the mud inside it at Obama.
    And when she wasn't doing that she had her surrogate do it.
    But, the most appalling and arrogant thing is after it was apparent she would not get the nomination she continued to run and drive up her debt into the tens of millions and expects Obama's supporters to clean up her mess.
    The woman is literally hopeless with money and managing anything in general.
    I am a middle aged female and found Hillary's playing the victim and encouraging her supporters to believe the falsehood that she was being treated unfairly due to gender and everyone should feel sorry for her because she is a woman.
    I feel Hillary and her deranged angry supporters have done more to set women back in general more than anything.
    She out to have taken her own advice: If you can't stand the heat get out!
    Now we are stuck contending with spoiled rich women whining about themselves and demanding unending attention.
    God! Grow up.
  • vwcat
    I also have to add that I have never seen such a gathering of self absorbed delusional people as Hillary's supporters.
    For them, it's all about themselves and their skewed perceptions of facts. Like Hillary's Rovian math.
    Barack Obama was never rude but, always gracious to a woman who behaved like a grand dame who concidered Obama to be 'uppity' So did her supporters.
    And Bill. Bill is the poster boy for all the bad stereotypes about babyboomers. Selfish, self obsessed, blaming everyone else for his own mistakes and never taking reponsibility and always craving the spotlight. It's always about 'me,me,me'
    And Hillary and her spoiled rich women supporters are not far behind.
    Both Clintons felt they were entitled and owed the white house and her supporters felt she should have been crowned queen.
    And because they did not get their way they stomp their feet and hold their breath. And skew the actual facts of the primary.
    What is really rich is while the Hillbots point fingers at everyone screeching sexist they wilt over Bill clinton thinking he is the greatest thing ever. A man who humiliated his wife in public for 40 years with his affairs and is a know serial woman exploiter.
    Hypocritical a little bit????
  • runasim
    i read this post with great interest and considerable sympathy - up to a pont. I'ts a very selective reconstrucion of the primaries, however.

    How quickly Damzel forgets the talking points Hillary was feeding to the GOP during the campaign, some of which are, indeed, being echoed by Repubs now.
    It will be interesting to see how Hillary reacts when they're brought up by reporters now that she will be saying that, on second thought, ,Obama is actually qualified to be president.

    Rather than go through a point-by-point comparison of who did what to whom (even though a run-through of various race cards and leaks to blogs might be educational), I think it's time to admit that there are hurt feelings on both sides, and it's not at all clear who should be apologizing to whom. Peraps a handshake of mutual understanding would be best.

    I just hope the primaries can finally be brought to a close before we see a post by an Obama supporter going through the litany of hurts on that side..

    I do want to make one correction. The antipathy to Bill (and Hillary, for that matter) by some bloggers preceded the primaries. It arose from events during the Clinton presidency, such as the last minute pardons. It's illusory to blame it all on Obama or his supporters.

    Personally, I think Bill Clinton has his heart and his goals in the right place, and have defended them boht regularly. . I've never seen them as anyhting but flawed people, like everyone else, trying ot do the right thing when it matters most. .
  • DAMOZEL
    Thanks, RUNASIM.

    As for the other two comments, they are perfect examples of why Obama's supporters are quickly becoming his own worst enemies.

    I don't agree that Hillary was 'feeding talking points to the GOP'. Instead, I think she was trying to win the primaries. The GOP will of course pick up on anything that either candidate said about the other that can be used. Hillary made some mistakes, but racism wasn't one of them. Racism is vile and therefore to accuse someone of it is to make a vile accusation.

    Obviously, we all have our own interpretation of events. But now that Obama's the winner, it's now rather much in his interest for his supporters to stop bashing Hillary supporters for their views --- and I wasn't deliberately trying to skew anything, but just explaining how it seemed to me --- and to start letting in the possibility that the level and degree of anger MIGHT, just possibly, spring from a perception that Hillary was unfairly accused of using unfair tactics.

    I don't mean to imply that she never engaged in questionable tactics. But that's beside the point. She is not the nominee. Obama is.

    I didn't maintain that he won BECAUSE of unfair tactics. I am not concerned about that anymore: he won.

    But there ARE a lot of wounded feelings out there, and not only Bill's. The thing now is to persuade those people that they need to support Hillary's call for unity. Obama needs those votes.

    It doesn't help Obama for his supporters to slam Clinton supporters for their feelings. In fact, the only way to persuade them to vote for him is to recognize and acknowledge their anger. Which is what I -- since I share it to some extent --- am trying to do.

    U-N-I-T-Y! I'm all for it. I don't have to LIKE it.

    VWCAT....Your recollection of the Clinton White House, if indeed this is what you remember, is very VERY different from mine. Your comment about baby boomers makes me think that this is not your own first-hand recollection.

    Your comment about 'spoiled women supporters,' which wrongly assumes that her supporters don't include a number of women whose circumstances ensure they are anything BUT, is of a piece with the sort of language I've become used to hearing.

    But just pinning a label on someone, and even making it stick, doesn't mean it's true or fair.

    Bill's misdeeds can't be attributed to his wife OR her supporters and yeah, it's fair for me to be offended by sexist remarks in the media, regardless of their target. I am equally offended by Fox's 'baby mama' tag as applied to Michelle Obama.

    I am simply contending that the racism charge was unfair and unfounded and that this seems to be the thing that has hurt Bill the most.
  • DAMOZEL
    PS. I went back to clarify that I am speaking specifically about Bill Clinton's anger over the allegations of racism.

    Those were unfair and perhaps he feels that they can't be washed away without Obama's repudiating them.

    But --- as I said --- I think the less said at this point, the better.
  • runasim
    Damozel,
    You just don't get it.

    There are hurt feelings on BOTH sides, and one reason there is a negative reaction to the Hillary campers is that they do go on and on about their wounds, while flipping off the wounds they inflicted as 'just the primaries'.
    Which candidate can't say 'it's just politics?
    Why shouldn't Obama be as upset as Bill after the assasination of RFK reminder?
    Both instances were exagerated, IMO, but they certainly reminded everyone that Obama is black, and, therefore. supicious and/or vulnerable. That hurts!

    In spite of your 'I don't have to like it' mantra, Im willing to take you at your word that you would like to see unity. . I can assure, however, that shifitng the blame form one side to the other is not going to work, because it's inherently unfair.
    When both sides are huritng, one sided apologies don't work and neither do one sided acknowledgements.
    These tactics just shift resentments from side to side along with apologies and acknowledgements.

    If you are truly interested in unity, and not just a vendetta, I would look for what would make both sides interested in unity. Usually, that means a common enemy. .Instead of 'calling out' ONLY Obama, and other Democrats, I suggest calling out McCain and Republicans, as well.
    Did you follow what happened to the climate change bill? Doesn't that concern you at all? Doesn't it concern you that news from Iraq is nearly non-existent, and what there is doesn't jibe with several reporters who have managed to get outside the Green Zome to actually be among Iraqis?
    Doesn't Addington's appearance in Congress interest you?

    If you want to get over the primaries, get over them, and rally the troops from both sides for issues of mutual interest.

    if your heart isn't in it, as your disclaimer seems to indicate, then your regurgitaion of past hurts from only one side will make unity impossible.

    The consequences will be dire, and I think it's time for everyone to prioritize their goals.
  • Silhouette
    There is a real problem with the foregoing post. It assumes that people who do not support Obama are operating from an emotional "vendetta" standpoint. You are patently wrong about this angle. Our objections stem from real concerns about his electability. And these concerns stem from our knowledge of what constitutes the democratic party. A small but vocal minority comprise what is known as the "liberal" democrats..and these are the folks rabidly yelling about unity and supporting their demigod Obama..

    A larger, more silent but thoughtful majority comprise what is known as the moderate democrats. This website takes it's name from that quieter majority.

    Majority...

    So, we know that our majority numbers cannot be cajoled and corraled into supporting someone that moderate and sensible people in their hearts cannot appoint to the Oval Office in these troubled times. Moderates would rather chance four more years of McCain, or write-in Clinton (stay tuned) than put a risky bet like Obama in the driver's seat of this runaway freightrain.

    We have done the math and know that when the GOP/BigMedia gets ahold of the masses who aren't reading these blogs right here, who have no clue about what you or I think or say about Obama, they will scare the pants off of the democratic moderate majority with an October surprise and herd them right into the McCain camp at the last minute. Worried, broke, desperate by November for anything that makes sense, that seems familiar no matter how bad, will be what the moderates will be doing in November...not banking on risky change.

    Of course, as much effort as possible will go into suppressing any idea of Clinton being a candidate. Strong-economy Clinton scares the pants off the GOP right about now. For instance, widespread write-in Clinton movements have not gotten a single ounce of airtime. You'd think this would be big news, but nada, nothing on mainstream media. The GOP/BigMedia is P-E-T-R-I-F-I-E-D that this idea might catch on. So not one mention of it will be made. Great efforts will be made to let it die out as internet rumor, hype and absurdity.

    We have different plans..

    We can do the math and we know how people think. All the wishful liberal thinking in the world won't make their candidate any more electable. You cannot pound loyalty in sensible people to a man who is a waffling buffoon. And sensible people is what the democratic party is made up in its majority.

    I'm not making this up. Wishful thinking won't get a dem in the Oval Office. Pounding unity into a rightfully rebellious majority won't get it done either. Making the right choice for candidate will get a dem in office, the economy back on its feet and our country back on the right track...not a track of "change" but a track of returning back to the strongest America in our country's history: a Clinton presidency.

    That's how moderates think. I'm one voice in a sea of millions alike. Sorry. I hate to be the one to break it to you.
  • mongol
    I would like to let you know things you might be unaware of. I'm one of the 18 millions of Hillary supporters. The reason I will not vote for Barack Obama 1) I live in FLORIDA (Hispano group) I voted for Hillary Clinton and my vote was not counted according to Nancy Pelosi. I felt like my constitutional right to express my voice for any candidate of my choice was REJECTED and DISRESPECTED. Do not ask why we are still angry,. 2) Senator Cinton was WRONGLY, INHUMANLY , mistreated by her own DEMOCRAT Party. Barack OBAMA was selected not elected by us to be the nominee, it should have been Hillary if the DNC hadn't taken our votes MIchigan and Florida to make Obama the so called nominee. Do not ask why we are still angy. Unfairly, sexism was the choice of the DNC,, biassed media, pro-Obama, , obseesed power, will cost Obama to loose in November. Most of us will vote for Senator John McCain , at least our votes will count this time. You are blaming Hillary for our decision, no sorry Hillary has nothing to do with our getting out of the Democrat party, it's the DNC 's fault if we decide to go to McCain. they should respect our rights to vote not their choice for us. Do not ask why we are still angy. Hillary is a good human being, you blame her just bcz we won't vote for Obama. Your action is illegal , it's like you're forcing us to vote for someone we don't think is good for the Country. In my opinion you should let it go, it is so annoying to hear your CRYING for the 18 millions of us. Why don't you people ignore us and move on with your campaign , it is a waste time, November is right at the corner. Let everyone be at PEACE instead at WAR between candidates, and voters, supporter fans, let your passion flow in something else. Because some of us will not reconsider , we have made up our mind ever since Hillary had been forcely voted out , we watch the news, we have eyes to see and we all speak and understand ENGLISH, so it is not HILLARY's fault.
  • runasim
    Sill,
    Just vote for McCain, then.
    Nothing else will help you get over the primareis, it seems and that's the effect you're going to have one way or an other, anyway.
    Go ahead. take responsibilty for what you do, and be done with it..
    You are not convincing anyone to join you who isn't already convinced. , so this si all rather pointless.
  • runasim
    Mongul,
    You should take up your Fla vote with Hillary.
    She willingly endorsed the DNC proposition to not count FLa votes at all.
    Confront Hillary and ask her why she made that commitment.

    Or, you could refrain from Hillary's attempt to cheat, i.e. change the rules in the middle of the game, and be grateful Fla got the delegates that it has.

    As a woman, I'm apalled that the first female candidate to get this far would sully the reputation of all women by trying to cheat ! .
  • DAMOZEL
    Runasim, how about dialing it back a bit? You've had your say. You aren't appointed to insult people. And it's a bit presumptuous of you to designate yourself the arbiter of who does and does not 'get it' and for whom people should vote.

    I don't want McCain to win either, but you are not helping Obama.
  • runasim
    Damozel,
    How did I insult you? You certainly didn't understand (get) my earlier comment.
    I'll admit that I don't get what is so difficult about accepting that BOTH sides feel hurt. If accepting that is impossible, then unity is impossible.

    You want one side to grovel, but even if they did, the insincere apology would cause enormous resentment, resentment that would be taken out on Hillary and friends at the first opportunity. For acknowledgements to be effective, they have to be mutual, when both parties feel equally aggrieved.

    Consult an expert in human dynamics, if you don't believe me.

    As I suggested, there is a better way out of the impasse, no groveling required.
    That's my contribution to unity;
    What will be yours?

    BTW, just how would I be helping Obama by allowing false accusations about him to go undhallenged? If I abet in denigrating him, I certainly won't be making him more appealing as a candidate.

    Again. i see only two options.
    1. Drop it and concentrate on common goals.
    2. Continue with the one sided accusations, rip the party apart, and elect McCain.
  • debrazza
    This is delusional. Bill Clinton believes that Barack Obama instructed Father Phlegler to go out and slime Hillary back in the Trinity church. That is mental. And it is crazy that you believe it too. Bill Clinton is the one that compared Obama's win in South Carolina to Jesse Jackson. Obama didn't make him do it.

    The Obama campaign did NOTHING to slime Hillary. When Samantha Power called her a "monster", she was dropped immediately. What happened when Bob Johnson called Obama a drug dealer? Or Andrew Cuomo said Obama was "shucking and jiving"? There is not a single Obama campaign member that made sexist comments against Hillary. But we can count the offenses against Obama starting with Iowa and her campaign staffers disseminating Muslim smear emails.

    This is the stupidest blog post I have ever read and a sad attempt at revisionist history. Get a grip on reality.
  • Lynx
    "I get why he and others are angry at the way the Obama campaign contrived to brand Hillary with a big white ‘R’ and at the way that Obama supporters who weren’t too stupid or partisan to believe it pretended to believe it. (It was the ones who were pretending that made me crazy; the ones who really did believe it are too young, too ignorant about the Clintons and their history, too insanely partisan, or too dumb to bother about.) "

    You know, it would REALLY help your argument about moderation and calming down if you didn't state that if you thought the Clinton's were using race you had to be either dishonest, stupid, naive or "insanely partisan". Yes, that's a hell of a way to ask people to "calm down". So it's impossible for a reasonable person who wasn't blinded by partisanship and who acted in good faith to simply get a different take from the situation than you? Personally I thought the Clinton campaign DID inject race (though not all the times they were accused of it) though I personally don't believe they are racist themselves. So which am I; stupid, dishonest, ultra-partisan or "too young" (a way of saying "stupid due to immaturity")?

    I could as well say that all Clinton supporters who saw sexism at every turn had the same problem. I don't because I feel that there was BOTH racism and sexism in the campaign. I personally think the core of the Clinton campaign injected race more often than the core of the Obama campaign injected gender, but I'm not about to insult someone (as you are doing) who has a different opinion on the matter. I can see where a reasonable, not-stupid, not immature and not ultra-partisan person might disagree.

    Your case is a generally strong one, and I suppose you are directing your comments at Clinton supporters who feel like they need to say that there really wasn't any problems in the primaries in order to pick Obama (which is a false choice, they can still believe that there was unfair treatment but decide that the "greater good" calls for supporting Obama) but you severely undermine the argument by directing insults (and they are insults) to anyone that would dare believe differently. You can call me a crazy Obama supporter if you wish, but I'm not asking you to embrace Obama as your hero, nor am I saying you must admit that there was NO unfair treatment. I may disagree with your judgment of the matter, but I won't call you stupid for feeling that way, I encourage you to do the same.
  • vwcat
    If you want to vote for McCain do so. I don't care. You want to vote for Bush's carbon copy fine with me. But, if Obama loses and you find your rights usurped and women's civil rights rolled back don't whine like you guys do now.
    It's your choice.
    If the economy totally tanks and we go to war with Iran don't whine like you guys do now because you made your bed with spite for a blanket.
    No one took poor Hillary;'s annoited position away. She screwed up.
    She thought California was winner take all and in her arrogance believed she was going to be crowed queen on Feb 5th and did not plan for afterwards and blew her money.
    She failed to learn the rules of the primaries. Her own laziness cost her. She did not compete in Feb. And she lost then. Everything else was only go through the motions. She could not catch up after the end of Feb. Everyone knows that. It was her arrogance, her insistence on keeping Penn around and not even bothering to learn about the way the primaries are done.
    Yet she stayed in and kept running and driving up her debt. She did not have any money in feb. She was broke and could not catch up in delegates.
    You talk about how poor women were treated so badly and sexist. And yet do so against Nancy Pelosi. She broke the glass ceiling and did not play the vicitm games to succeed. And yet Hillary's women turn against her because Nancy refused to bow down to the Clintons.
    Nancy Pelosi is a model of how women should act and how to succeed and be taken seriously. She does it with class and guts and never plays the woe is me card like Hillary.
    The one thing you hillbots don't seem to understand is that the Clintons are politicians and as such know how to manipulate people and they did so with you. They totally messed you up.
    The fact is that Barack Obama ran a campaign that many say was so different and such a model of the ideal campaign that it will be studied and copied for years to come.
    You fail to realize that Obama is not an idiot but, has a brilliant mind and surrounded himself with brilliant people.
    I bet you never bothered to read his positions on any of the issues or bothered to learn about the man. I'd suggest you look up an article on his mother from the NYtimes. She was a brilliant woman who earned her phd by herself. while raising two kids. And was a pioneer in microbanking for poor third world women in the 80s through the Ford foundation.
    If you want to know about strong and independent women you should find out about the woman who raised obama and then say he is sexist and hates women. I dare you to.
    His grandmother began as a bank teller and worked her way up to be a bank official. And then, Michelle, who is a successful woman in her own right.
    you Hillbots trash Michelle for being an outspoken and strong woman but then whine about how Hillary lost because people are scared of strong women.
    How hypocritical.

    diane
    -------------- Original message ----------------------
  • runasim
    Damozel,
    I hope you see by the reactions that it just doesn't work if it's all about validading only one side of the argument, no questions asked or objections raised.

    I'm going to use myself as an example. I know how rotten it feels to lose. I sympathize with that. But I can't express that sympathy, if it requires my saying that the other side is right about everything and, yes, Obam is the devil.That's just not how I see it, and i won't lie.

    In a point-by-point recap, there are a lot of things the two sides see differently, and the gap can't be bridged by an agreement that is a pretense, a fake. The truth is, that we disagree about particulars and ongoing recriminations will produce nothing but reciprocal recriminations..


    Hillary was at the top of her game and most admired when she gave her brilliatnt last campaign speech, conceding that Obama had won. By a stroke of genius, she managed to salute her supporters and affirm her accomplishments while exiting the stage with total grace.

    As a women, I really apprecite her legacy. The next woman candidate won't need to face the astonishment greeting the 'first'. .

    Now, however, the continuing fight is tarnishing the gold stars she earned. Once again, she is becoming a symblol for polarization and animosity. This time, however, the diminishment is brought about by her own supporters, because they can't or won't exit the stage with grace, walking proud and tall.

    The ball is now in the Hillary camp's court. They can continue fighting, Obama. they can move their sights to Nov., or they could try a new aproach: go for MUTUAL respect/.
    Their choice.
  • just4clinton
    Diane

    If I may,

    Hillbots? name calling is very juvenile

    Secondly perhaps you might want a refresher course in how primaries work. Even today Hillary has more than enough delegates to go to the convention and take the nomination. There is a reason he is referred to as the PRESUMPTIVE nominee. Obama and his campaign know very well that espcially in light of his recent flip-flopping Hillary could pick away at his delegates at the convention. That is why there a rush to get her to leave the race. They still remain only 200 or so delegates apart and there are still undecided superdelegates. Not to mention that not even the pledged delegates are required to vote for Obama at the convention. So you remain very incorrect in your suggestion that Hillary did not have a chance to win after Feb 5th. And if your theory is true then what the hell is the point of holding primaries after that day?

    Repealing of civil liberties and wars in Iran? What makes you so sure that an Obama presidency would not yield the same results? While I don't expect Roe v. Wade to be repealed under his presidency rest assured that the rest of Civil liberties will be slowly stripped away. Obama voted to reinstated both the Patiot Act and Homeland Security Acts, something he said he would not do. Both of those acts have caused Americans to lose their rights. This is the same man who in his debates maintained that He would remove troops from Iraq only to place them in Iran and Afganistan! Obama has no intention of ending military occupation in the middle east. Watch the Nevada debates again my friend the words come out of his mouth. I say all this to show you what type of president Obama will be and despite what Hillary might prefer for me to believe, I have my own brain that tells me it won't be that much better than Mccain. Watch the documentary "Why we fight" and listen to John Mccains position on The Military Industrial Complex(if you don't know what that is look it up) and Military Occupation overseas. You might be surprised.

    For the record I will not be voting for John Mccain. My ancestors gave up to much for me to throw away my vote. I will be voting for the person who I feel would make the best president in January and that person is Hillary Clinton. An Obama Victory scares me just as much as a Mccain victory. It raises my eyebrows when high ranking REPUBLICANS endorse DEMOCRATIC candidates. I can only pray that Hillary is smart enough to understand that this election is bigger that her or Obama or Mccain. This election is about the voters not party politics. The truly respectable thing for her to do would be to leave her party and allow the Millions of us who want to vote for her to be able to. Lets even the playing field and give the people as many options as they want. Don't try and get us to fall in line. Maybe its time to end this two party charade of an election! It's time to have more that just 2 viable candidates in the general election. And if Obama was really about changing Washington politics he would support such a decision, but that might be too much change for him.
  • just4clinton
    Runasim

    You are extremely insulting when you suggest that our protest is merely a result of sour grapes. It goes beyond that. At some point we have to say to our government you can not pick our leaders for us. Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi were both extremely out of line in pressuring undecided delegates to make up their minds before the end of the primary season or even before the convention for that matter. Additionally all of the Senators who called for Clinton to leave the race before the final votes were cast made two very unfortunate mistakes. The first mistake was what came across as active campaigning against a fellow party member. The second and far more offensive was it sent a message that the democratic party was not concerned with the voters in the latter primaries. As far as many officials were concerned the race was over. They missed the fact that perhaps there was a 95 year old African American grandmother who could remember a time when it was LEGAL to hang us just for being black who might just might want to vote for someone who might be the first black president. Or maybe some elderly woman had been driven from her hospital bed to a polling station excited over the thought she would be able to vote for someone who might be the first female president. THAT is what is so insulting. So no I can not fathom supporting a party that so clearly disrespected me. Perhaps the Democratic party is no longer the party it used to be. Things do change, at one point in time the Republican party was the party for poor people and look how that has changes in little more than a century! But one should not support something just because they are told it is what is good for them.
  • runasim
    Just4,
    it seems to be one of the rules of operation among the Hillary camp to call every difference of opinion an insult.

    I sympathized enough to spend (read:waste) considerable time trying to explain that there are TWO SIDES to the argument, and that if the Hillary camp wants understading , it has to be ready to exttend it,
    .
    Since you call that an insult, then I wash my hands of the whole thing.
    The consequences of the animosity you cause, for the Dems and for Hillary will be your doing.
  • vwcat
    Actually Hillary is the one I would have worried about as president. Concidering the way she mismanaged her campaign and loused up what should have been an easy win. She failed on so many measures.
    Just like she totally mismanged health care in 93.
    It would have been mass chaos in her white house with no one knowing what was going on and what to do.
    Hillary is a good bureaucrat but, a lousy manager and executive. She frankly cannot handle being at the head of things in charge. She is good as a bureaucrat.
    some people are good executives and some are good bureaucrats.
    obama is a good executive and ran his campaign in a way that left many in awe. and he knew every state and what was required, managed the money well and ran a campaign free of drama.
    The clintons are known for their traveling circus full of high drama and soap operas.
    How many personas can one person have in a campaign. She must have changed her slogan and her focus about as often as she did her pantsuits. That is a sign of a campaign without direction or purpose. I don't thnk she ever really knew why she was running. Only that she felt she was a Clinton and entitled.
    And her supporters thought they were owed the white house. Why. what would it do. Whether you have a man or woman in the white house makes no difference. The problems and are the same. The way it's run is the same.
    Gender makes no difference. A woman is going to run the country the same as a man and with the same focus as a man. Womens lives are going to be the same. You won;'t wake up and find all your problems or disappointments change. That things are different.
    What makes a difference is the person themselves. If someone is elected that cares about the country and the people and wants to level the field and make things fair. Whether it is a man or woman makes no difference.
    It is about the platform and the policies. And many of those will change when they are in congress. It matters if enough democrats are there to make sure it goes through but, whatever policies bandied about now will go through at least some changes in congress.
    I do not understand this idea you people have that suddenly your life will change for the better with a woman. Especially that woman. She is tied to corporations and money. She is a very top down, old school pol. She has never worked in the real world and has always lived in taxpayer funded mansions. her job as a atty was for a corporate law firm. She lived in bubble her whole life.
    She did not even know how to put gas in a car or get coffee out of a machine because she has live her whold adult life in an insulated bubble.
    Do you honestly think she has a clue as to what an average person's life is like? Only in the abstract.
    Even her surrogates were out of touch. Old school feminists out of the 1960s. Their rhetoric was even old school. Ferarro sounded like she was still living in 1972. These women have no clue what real women's lives are like or what modern women are about these days. I was expecting them to trot out Helen Reddy from storage.
    You people think that if Hillary was president suddenly your life will be different. Your personal disappointments in life will change. Simply because Hillary is a woman.
    What is needed is a democrat in the white house and a fillbuster proof majority in congress. Not gender.
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  • vwcat
    Another thing. I am a student of history. And in history we have leaders that come along once every couple of generations. Bill clinton was not that leader. He was too bogged down in personal weakness and caught up in the stereotype of the baby boomers. The it's all about me think.
    When FDR ran he was accused of being too much about rhetoric and too vague. Not specific enough. There was a reason he was but, I won't go into it here.
    Lincoln was a one term congressman who was thought too inexperienced for the dangerous times our nation faced
    Kennedy was thought too inexperienced, too young and too vague.
    Obama is not as inexperienced as Lincoln. He was a state senator for 8 years. A state senator spends alot more time working with the details of an issue as they don't have staff to do that for them. They have to do the legwork. They have to talk to people and experts and get into the nitty gritty. One complaint about Obama in Springfield was he was too much of a wonk.
    He did not have as much a reputation here for his speeches. It was for his wonkiness.
    and he knew the issues inside and out.
    And he had a reputation for championing women's issues. That is why the president of planned parenthood went to him and they cooked up the plan of him voting present. Because present was a no without being on the record. it is an old tactic used here. It is used by everyone. No politician from Springfield is without alot of present votes because it is a strategic thing used by all. And this particular time it was to protect democrats who were pro choice in swing districts from some nasty bills the republicans cooked up to get the democrats out of office.
    Obama was also a visiting constitutional law professor for 10 years at the University of Chicago. As a constitutional scholar, he knows it better then most. And reveres it.
    I think you and some of the hard core are afraid of is change. You fear difference and unknown. You probably don't take much chances or trust your instincts much. You probably like everything very safe.
    The Clintons are status quo and have been around forever. You think with Hillary you get Bill. Even crazy Bill is a known to you.
    I do find it odd how many hard core are so devoted to Bill. they accuse all men of sexism but, adore Bill clinton. A man who humiliated his wife in public for 35 years and preyed on young gullible women. A man who was a serial exploiter of women. that to me is odd.
    Especially since Obama has a long record of respecting and enjoying strong independent women and you guys think he is evil.
    Have you ever done something on the spur or just because. threw caution to the wind? just took your shoes off and splashed in a puddle for fun after a rain?
    did something on a dare?
    As an adult?
    diane

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  • Jammer
    I really dont know why people would find this post the least bit offensive. He argues for Clinton supporters to work for the greater good to elect Obama; he urges Bill to put aside any bitterness...whats not to like? Oh I know, the fact that the writer credits the bitterness of the Clinton supporter crowd makes some Obama people see red, but crediting the feelings of the other side is in no way justification for the anger of the response from Obama supporters. Its really no different that agreeing to talk to adversaries is it? One of the points is to understand the other side and what motivates them?

    As to Bill, I fully understand his anger, and I note tonight that he and Obama are set to speak.. Good for Obama. It is his duty as new party leader to reach out and incorporate the past leaders of the party into his cause, regardless of whether some of his supporters like it or not. Clinton will be there for him, I know, if Obama will just reach out to him. And he is the one who must reach out. Politics 101.

    As to those who still want to waste their time criticizing Bill Clinton himself, have at it. One of the burdens of being a past president is people argue about what your presidency was all about. For me, who supported him since 1991 and still does, he was a tragically flawed yet superior political leader whose grit and fighting instincts turned around the Nixon-Reagen interegnum, and who neutralized for Democratic candidates in the future the previously crippling issues of welfare, soft on defense, unbalanced in the economy. He was a necessary precursor to the present progressive revival and critical to its success. I dont think he meant to be the least bit racist in the campaign, and I do think the other side was overly eager to call that card out. That said, the Clintons are true progressives and have been all their lives. They will be there for Obama working their butts off because they under5stand how important his election is. Ultimately our collective success this fall will turn on whether we can abandon the primary divide, stop denigrating our most successful president since FDR, and fight for the progressive causes we all believe in. A vote for McCain is traitorous to the causes the Clintons hold dear.
  • Lynx
    Jammer, you don't find it insulting to say that anyone who sees the situation with the Clinton's differently is stupid, immature, ultrapartisan or dishonest? What if I said that about all Clinton supporters; that anyone who thought there had been sexism in the campaign was afflicted in such a fashion? Not insulting?

    I can understand anger, I can even understand bitterness. I am willing to accept that there may be a legitimate take on the situation that is different from mine. I don't think that for unity it is required that one side (ANY side) completely abdicate their opinions and anger. What I'm NOT willing to do is concede that I'm stupid or dishonest because I have a different opinion, nor will I admit that I'm being insulting when I suggest that Clinton supporters are every bit as capable of bull-headed intolerance as Obama supporters.
  • just4clinton
    What side of what argument are you talking about. Again I will try and make it clear that there is no issue to take up with the Obama camp. I commend my black brother for doing his job and running a darn good campaign. The issue is with the actions and words of the DNC. And there lies the reason for what may be 4 more years of republican rule. You from camp Obama can try as you might to pin this one on Hillary because democrats inevitably always do but the reality is there was foul play on the part of the DNC. Just one example was that horrendous mistake they made in assigning UNCOMMITTED delegates to a candidate who did not win them while simultaneously taking away COMMITTED delegates from the candidate who did win them. There will be no amount of logic that makes that scenario make sense don't waste time trying to make it make sense you will only end up looking a fool. In essence pledged Hillary delegates that were won are being allocated into the Obama bank???? And you think I want a DEM in office who accepted this? This is the same man that removed his name from the friggin ballot HELLO! The Democrats and the Republicans are looking more and more the same these days. As usual the DNC will be the reason we lose the nomination not Hillary Clinton. Let us not forget more people voted for her that any other primary candidate in HERstory! That speaks volumes.
  • just4clinton
    BTW read my post carefully I said the DNC had been insulting not the Obama campaign or yourself for that matter.
  • just4clinton
    Maybe you are not as familiar with Hillary's time on the national stage as I am. You are student of history so you might be familiar with the Carter administration and the Legal Justice Corporation. If not let familiarize you, they are the department of the government that allocates federal funding to the 335 legal justice offices around the country. These offices are responsible for funding our legal aid system that provides court appointed attorney's to people who might otherwise not be able to afford them. Stay with me diane...When Regan was governor of California he tried to dismantle the program there. As chairwoman of the Board Hillary was able to stop him. He attempted to dismantle it from the Federal level as President and again Hillary effectively stopped him while also raising the budget from 90 to 300 million. Today Hundreds of thousands of people across the country still have access to these services. Just one slice of plenty of information I have about some of the work Hillary has done as an executive.

    Let me also say this. Hillary is an agent of change, one who has been for 35 years believe me a vote for her was the most change you would've seen in quite sometime. The only CHANGE that Obama represents is his being half black (and as a student of history I assume you know that both Abraham Lincoln and Calvin Coolidge were also bi-racial so so much for the first 1/2 black president) There is nothing in his record as a senator, "visiting law professor", or as a "community organizer" that suggest he is an agent of change and by the way Hillary was not just a visiting law professor she actually WAS a professor of law.

    And yes actually I do throw caution to the wind from time to time. However I have watched this man for 17 months and everything about him spells same old politician. The flip-flopping, the fact he did not know what type of people he kept around him all of that. Anyone willing to drop the people who helped get him to where he is, is willing to do anything as a politician. He is the worst kind, the kind who pulls the wool over your eyes.

    Some inexperienced Presidents were good but my dear historian some were very bad like oh say Andrew Jackson!
  • vwcat
    Are you kidding me. YOu actually believe the rumors from way back that Lincoln or Harding (not Coolidge, duh) as being part black. OMG! Are you serious! I cannot believe you actually believe this crap.
    Hillary was never a change agent except for herself. She changed her image every other week during the primaries.
    It was, who is Hillary going to be this week.
    But, her career is one of being the wife of Bill Clinton. Rose Law firm was a corporate firm that put her on due to Bill and his buddies who worked there. A favor.
    Her senate career was because she was the wife of Bill.
    She has never done anything for women. Alot for corporations and for insiders but, not for women.
    She is also someone who is a terrible manager. And if you think I am not being fair, her own people, including Ickes, have admitted to so many of the horrific mistakes made in the campaign.
    I'd suggest you read this article in Vanity Fair where Gail Sheedy talks to the insiders and loyalists of Ms. Hillary and what a mess it was.
    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/200...

    As for Obama, maybe you should do some googling and find out about the man before you condemn him.
    Or I could link you to articles from here in Illinois about the man before he was famous and what things he did to help women, the disadvantaged and the incredible work he had done in the Illinois senate.
    If you want to know about a really amazing woman who embodies what a liberated and independent and courageous woman is about I suggest you take the time to read this article with an open mind:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/14/us/politics/1...
    Then tell me Obama is a sexist and hates women.

    The problem with you Hillbots is that you guys simply cannot see the real clintons and cannot accept that your idol began with all the advantages. More than anyone in history. Money, name, connections, a 30 year machine, a 20 point lead, corporate and inside Washington backing, ect. and blew it.
    And it was her own fault and that of her own husband, your beloved Bill and the man she trusted the most, Mark Penn. She was told over and over that Penn was messing her up and yet clung to him and he gave her the worst advice and she listened.
    It was not the media. It was not Obama doing something nefarious. It was not the vast right or left wing conspiracies. It was Bill, Mark Penn and Hillary herself.
    Using scapegoats and blaming others will not erase the basic fact and the truth.
    But, of course, if you actually believe that Lincoln and Harding (not Coolidge as you misstated) were half black, I suppose you would believe anything.
    I have some swampland in Arizona for sale by the way....
    But, I can see where you would be ripe for the misinformation and distortions bandied about by the likes of NoQuarter, Taylor Marsh, ect., and their 'stories' to keep the gullible hanging and riled up. Seems it is so easy to feed misinformation and have so many readily eat it up.
    Amazing with the internet and all this information at people's fingertips that they still willingly buy into so much garbage and lies.
    I suppose you also believe that Obama is a gay, manchurian muslim terrorist candidate who wants to blow up the country. sigh.
    I think you should know something about NoQuarter. I assume you read that website. Larry Johnson came up through the ranks with Valerie Plame. It was not until the Wilsons endorsed Hillary that Johnson became virulently anti obama - overnight.
    And overtime an unhinged man.
    Johnson seems to have a thing For Plame and went overboard to curry her favor in her backing Hillary and as a result seems to have gone off the deep end emotionally.
    It was never about Hillary. It was about Plame.
    Taylor Marsh was a young Ms. USA contestant (or Miss something) who went for a career on broadway and ended up on the fringes. She went to California and fell into doing writing for some porn sites. She worked for this porn star who had a website and from there did a book she self published by one of those vanity presses.
    Her radio show is a podcast from her basement. Not a real radio program.
    She's always been on the fringe of the entertainment industry and never made it.
    Seems to me alot of the most strident Hillary supporters were people who used Hillary's candidacy as a vessel for their own failures and disappointments and whatever and thought to see her as a way of validating themselves.
    She attracted a large segment of angry and resentful people who never understood that you validate yourself and find your own success and your own justifications through you and not through others.
    She is the standin as the 'child' for the supporters 'stage mother' who would make it and they could live through her their own dreams.
    how very sad.
    I am not saying all her supporters. Just the fringies, the hillbots, who can't let go and can't see politics in a healthy and normal way and see Hillary as some vessel to live out their own dreams and paper over their own failures.
    They blame the world for Hillary losing and can't accept that her own campaign and herself made some fatal mistakes that ran her campaign off the rails.
    It happens in politics. People with promise run a bad campaign and hire bad people. Look at Guillianni. McCain did the same thing but, recovered in time.
    How a campaign is run is a tip off to how that person will govern and run the white house.
    diane

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  • vwcat
    I do have to say it is interesting writing to you.
    It is interesting to see how people who were such hard core Hillary people feel and think. And let's me, an Obama supporter try to explain the misinformation that was spread during the campaign.
    I don't expect you to ever like or accept Obama. I don't expect you to ever even like the man a little. But, it is good to try to clear up misinformation.
    It's like, I do like to try to find righwingers to try to understand them and why they are the way they are why they are so hostile.
    I am outspoken and being half french, I do get angry but, I do hope while we go back and forth some form of understanding develops. some truth gets spread.
    I also like to see how people who disagree with me think and feel and why. And if there is some kind of way to see if that can be talked out, hashed out and argued and end up with some kind of road where we do agree.
    I must admit I am curious as to why some who supported Hillary became so hard core and so angry. Why they have such a wall built up resist any kind of ;unity'. I remember when Edwards dropped out. His supporters were so passionate. and yet they were so open and able to deal with what happened. Yet, I find some of Hillary';s are having such a hard time.
    And why, if they are so about this being a woman breaking the 'glass ceiling' thing, they are so hateful towards Pelosi. Speaker of the house and a fantastic woman. I adore Pelosi. Look up to her. A woman who is so classy and tough. Smart and can kick around those men and scare the republicans. And look fantastic doing it.
    Yet, Hillary's supporters hate her. wow. she is the original ceiling breaker and I cheered when she took that gavel.
    All summer in 2006 I kept hoping that Pelosi would become speaker. I thought her marvelous.
    diane.
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  • vwcat
    Sorry to email so much but, i found this and thought you should look at it.
    I was looking for a list of legislation of Obama's as I have seen it printed on the blogs and thought you should look at the sheer volumn of it. It might make you feel better after November 4th.
    But, came across this from Obsidian Wings and thought it was something really good in breaking some of this down and about the man and his work in the US Senate.
    It was from 2006 so it was before Obama got in the running and there was only talk about it.
    So the post is not from a supporter or anyone big about the man. Just a piece of unbaised run down:

    http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2...

    diane
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  • vwcat
    I saw this on Huffington Post.
    I thought this might give you a little insight into a man you may concider just some black guy running for office.
    Many seem to fortget that Obama is not just black but, half white, his sister is half white and half asian and his brother in law is Chinese canadian. He had a brother in law from his half sister from Africa who was a titled guy in England (they are now divorced).
    The man is a walking UN. connected to all these countries on a personal basis.
    A world citizen.
    Also, you don't get to be the president of the Harvard law review by being some slouch or even just average.
    Or graduate from Harvard law school cum laud being just average.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/01/obamas...
    diane
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  • vwcat
    my email address is changing. it got taken over by comcast so it's now
    Greenbug2@comcast.net.
    In a few days my old address won't be able to be used. I changed it on disqus.
    diane
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  • just4clinton
    That is interesting because I think the last President we had was a Slouch so I suppose they do just let anyone become the President.
  • just4clinton
    I assume Diane you are a female from your name. It is so unfortunate when women internalize their sexism. What you have basically said in this post is that nothing Hillary has done has been her own doing and that she owes all of her progress to her HUSBAND? That is the epitome of sexism. Did you ever stop and think perhaps he made it as far as he did because of her? What you don't know or care not to acknowledge is that for many many years she refused to even use her married name. Remember when he (Bill) lost the governors race in Arkansas? It was Hillary who helped him score the win the next go round by changing her professional last name from Rodham to Clinton under intense pressure to do so. Women (and men) like you are the reason she never wanted to use the name Clinton professionally.

    I will not assume your race based on your name but if you are black then again I must ask of you to stop internalizing your racism. Why is it so hard fathom that perhaps two of our presidents have been BLACK??? Especially Lincoln? Is the idea that far fetched? Well guess what white men have raped our women for Generations dear and many a bi-racial child was made so if you think that there is no merit to the idea that Lincoln who even had black features (like harding, and I thank you for the correction and even Jefferson for that matter) then I won't even waste my breath. Do the research and use the same open mind you are asking of me.

    You ignorance is starting to prevail. When you ask the question "I suppose you believe obama is gay and a muslim" you make yourself sound very very bigoted. Lets suppose for a moment that I thought both were true (which I don't) you are making an assumption that I find fault with either homosexuality or the muslim religion. If I did believe that Obama was Gay then I would actually vote for him in a heartbeat because electing an openly gay candidate would really be change that I could believe in! And if I do think he is muslim are you assuming that I didn't vote for him because of that? What if I am both Gay and a muslim? It seems to me that for someone you consider a walking UN he keeps quite a few prejudice bigots about him, from reverend Wright to Reverend Meeks and its is appearing from your post even an average supporter such as yourself! I suppose we can blame Hillary and Penn for Wrights and Meeks remarks right? Of course when all else fail blame Hillary we always do.

    While I agree with you that the campaign may have made some mistakes I don't know if it is fair for you to call it any type of failure. She managed to inspire 18 million voters. The race was 50/50 which means she mobilized just as many voters as Obama and to suggest all of her supports are disillusioned or somehow hoodwinked by a false character created by her husband then how do you explain the support she received from prominent political figures and civil rights activist such as Charles Rangel of NY who has worked with her for over 30 years (and I dare you to say something bad about Rangel, who by the way is actually the person who made sure she got the NY senate seat, not Bill, as he is the most powerful figure in NY politics)? I know this because I live in NY.

    Additionally if you continue to suggest that the only reason Hillary lost is because she screwed up her campaign then you only continue to give my cause reason. The reason she lost is because people VOTED! You are suggesting that voting had nothing to do with the outcome and strategy and money had everything to do with it. When you say she blew a 20 point lead you belittle what Obama actually accomplished and prove the point of how weak of a candidate he is. The implication there is that he won because she lost. Chose your words more carefully.

    Finally before Hillary was even with Bill she was featured in LIFE magazine, I believe the year was 68' I could be wrong. I hate to break it to you but the world had already recognize a rising political star who just happened to be in a skirt. So much for Him having created her...I think it is more the other way around.

    Finally my issues have nothing to do with Obama or Hillary but with the decisions made by the DNC that were marginalizing, disenfranchising and unconstitutional from the very beginning. I would have gladly voted Obama as a young black man but I was force fed him and don't like for either party make me feel as if I have to chose who they want me to chose that is not democracy! Bush was forced on me for TWO terms I will not allow Barak to be shoved down my throat just because he is young, black and a democrat. Cynthia Mckinney's name will also be on the ballot and I think she is a much more honest and hard working politician who doesn't have to sell out or uncle tom to try and bring about REAL change.
  • just4clinton
    I agree. I have actually very much enjoyed our back and forth. What is interesting to me is that all the rhetoric you speak about Hillary sounds exactly like what the right wing and republicans have been saying and putting out there for years and you don't take it with even the smallest grain of salt. But that is okay because most people believe the lies. Can you imagine what it might be like to be her?

    As far as Pelosi goes I too cheered when she took the gravel, but like so many others she has abused that power. Don't you see most of us are not angry with or at Obama. We are angry with the DNC. Nancy Pelosi was tactless and distasteful for her part in the primaries so bad that after being foolish enough to suggest Hillary leave the race early, she had to recant and say that she be allowed to finish the contest that remained.

    In any event you are failing to realize that the democratic party stole the basic right to Americans. The right to have their vote counted and it was cast and that is not what happened in Michigan or Florida (and please don't tell me about the rules because the initial stripping of the delegates and votes is what I am talking about.) My grandparents (yes the lived threw the Civil rights how about yours?) did not get beat, maimed, hosed or bitten by dogs so that people like Nancy Pelosi or Howard Dean could tell me that if I voted in Florida or Michigan this year that the vote would not count! And Obama's taking his name of the ballot (to curry favor in Iowa) was a slap in the face. Kinda like him not showing up at Dr. Kings memorial or the Black state of the Union address but I'm sure you did not take offense that either for Jesus ah hem excuse me Obama can do no wrong. WAKE UP and see this politician for the one he truly is.
  • vwcat
    Actually, Florida was warned several times to not move it up. The democratic party voted with the republicans 100 percent to move it without any protest.
    They even went before the DNC and testified and the DNC offered several times to help them.
    florida democratic party instead turned defiant. I saw the hearing on Cspan.
    Then, Michigan wanted to move after Florida was already penalized and still did it after several warnings.
    In reality there was a deal with many in the state parties to stampede to the front to end the primaries early.
    You may not believe it but, most of the state parties were working with the Clintons to move this up. It has been admitted to by Clinton surrogates. The move up to the 5th was to front load so no one could have a chance and Hillary would be finished by the 5th. That was the plan.
    No one could foresee the strength of Obama. Only Illinois move up for Obama to off set by the party here a complete route by Hillary that day.
    Then Florida and Michigan wanted to leapfrog. Many were backers of clinton. I know a person in the party in florida and the idea was to give her a big early win.
    Alot of democrats in the state parties owed their careers to the Clintons and the 90s. They owed Hillary. That was one big reason why Hillary kept saying she did not think she would have to go much more after the 5th and dropped hints that the 5th was going to be the end of the primaries. Why she did not manage all that money for the possibility of after the 5th or had any plans for after the 5th.
    It is not illegal or anything. The states frontloaded to help her and end the primary early and no one thought anything of it. But, Michigan and Florida leapfrogged for money and to give her a big amount of delegates to go into the 5th primed. That was what was wrong. The states could and did move to the 5th and even if was to help out Hillary it was within the rules.
    What went wrong was that Obama came roaring out of a 20 point down to a big iowa win when he hit the Jefferson Jackson dinner. that was his big beginning. He had been organizing under the radar all the these states during the summer and early fall. Then at the JJ Dinner he came out to run hard and served noticed with his speech.
    Then won in Iowa. Since already had organized in so many states ahead of time, he basically took the ball and ran.
    That is what happened and how Hillary got caught unprepared and unable to compete in Feb.
    The whole thing was suppose to be hers and she was suppose to be nominated on the 5th. When Obama beat her and then, tied her on the 5th, she was without money, resources and a plan for afterward.
    she never had a plan b in case. Because she ran at 20 to 30 ahead all summer and fall. Things and voters changed overnight.
    The Obama camp planned in the beginning to run for delegates and organized under the radar all summer. Plouffe was the best in the business and laid out how he thought it should go. He leaked it to the press as a diguised 'accidentally leaked memo' and it laid out how he saw they would run in the states. And they felt it would go to the end in a delegate fight. His memo was about 96% percent right. He did not think they would win Maine and thought they would get S. Dakota.
    But, they organized with grassroots and local people in the states and Plouffe was a master of the caucus. He knew them better than anyone. He worked for Harkin who taught him caucuses back in 92.
    So, while it seemed Obama was not doing alot in the summer he was organizing with his Camp Obama (training was in chicago all summer) and alot of the leaders in this part of his campaign were community organizers he use to work with in Chicago.
    That is how they got the jump on HIllary. Obama and his campaign ran with his organizing background and former co workers. And he had some of the best people in campaigns with his manager Plouffe for one.
    Hillary ran a top down campaign with alot of old loyalist who did not have experience in running a campaign but were connected to inside Washington.
    That is what happened.
    But, I found this in the Guardian and it seemed like an article you'd love. It sounds like it was written by PUMAs. lol.
    Thought you would enjoy it and thought I'd send it your way.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/ju...
    diane
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  • vwcat
    This president totally sucks.
    Anyway, two things.
    one. I do think alot of my prejudice towards Hillary has to do with Bill. I was reading something and it occurred to me that many times I'd think about a Hillary presidency and try to picture swearing in day and the evening celebrations and would feel nauseated. I realized it was the thought of Bill was what bugged me.
    i don't want that man back in the white house and in front of the cameras.
    Not just his affairs. His pardons really pissed me off as it seemed like he was just saying f you to the country with those.
    Other things as well and all those dubious trips with his influence peddling the past few years.
    He is just sleazy.
    i may have been able to accept Hillary, even not minded her as president, if she did not have Bill with her.
    She would have been a better candidate and politician without him.
    She is stronger and might have lost some of the sleazier things she picked up from him. She needed to dump people from the 90s like Mark Penn for sure.
    And I think alot of the resistance to Hillary by alot of Obama people was Bill. The lefty netroots it was Bill.
    Two, I watched Obama over the year. I have a good idea about people. The one thing I always was struck by was his doing things so unconventional wisdom. He is definitely underestimated, especially by the press that keeps trying to put him in a box but, he is not of the era that the press uses as reference. He is new generation.
    I use to work in social services and see things that come out of that that Obama uses. And his whole thing is rooted in that world. His policies and thinking is rooted there.
    Mostly, I do like the brilliant mind he has. This is not just an intelligent person. This is someone who is brilliant.
    Alot of people in chicago who knew him always talked about him being scary smart. Brilliant.
    And not someone who is about the partisanship of the 90s. He is not ideological. He is very practical. His politics is not about 'gotcha' and the old wars of the baby boomers.
    Like the baby boomers on the right keep bringing up William Ayres. For one the guy is respected and a person who works alot of charity boards in the city and has worked with people on the left and right and has worked with the mayor even on some boards. But, anyway, the man was from the culture wars of the 60s. To Obama that is ancient history. The weathermen mean nothing to him. Obama is of the 80s. 3 day concerts is not woodstock but, Live Aid to him. It's like asking a boomer of the 60s to relate to the depression of the 30s.
    So, for Obama, all that culture war stuff is simply nothing to him.
    It's like that 'whitey; lie that they tried to say Michelle said. Whitey is a 60s term. She is of the 80s. No one used that old school term in the 80s. It's like saying a 60s person is using the term boogey woogey or flapper.
    And that is where the right will trip up this election. they will keep using the boomer tactics on a person who is post boomer. Gen x.
    Diane
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  • just4clinton
    I guess everyone makes up there own version of events. I watch the CSPAN hearing also and it was pointed out that Michigan only moved their primary up AFTER it was made clear by the DNC that New Hampshire would not be penalized for moving theirs up like they were supposed to. Once it was clear New Hampshire would not be penalized Michigan proceeded with their plans.

    Secondly the big Iowa win was not surprise to anyone as Barak Obama and John Edwards removed their name from the Michigan ballot precisely for the purpose of currying favor with IOWA caucuses that threatened all the candidates if they supported Michigan in anyway. The results they finished First and Second! what a surprise!

    Finally you still only continue to prove my point. If all of the voters could not vote before February 5th then no one should have been allowed to. It is not a secret that the lily white states of Iowa and New Hampshire go first and the reason they did not want large states like Michigan and Florida to vote early was because of heavy black and latino populations. The DNC instead offered the much smaller and less consequential states of nevada and south carolina to move up their primaries, but only to dates after Iowa and New Hampshire. This is what you call a civil rights violation. We are entitled to EQUAL treatment under the law.

    And finally do not make up lies. Florida's democratic party actually did protest moving up the election AND asked to hold a caucus after feb 5th so that their vote would count, the republican party of Florida said "hell nah".

    So I guess you could try and convince someone else that the DNC were acting in good faith but lets be serious if they were they would have followed the original rules and only stripped each states of half the delegates not all. Additionally they would have penalized new hampshire and Iowa who were also breaking the rules except that we allowed them to break the rules. According to the by laws NO ONE is supposed to go before Feb 5th.

    And you also sound silly. If Hillary wanted to rush all the primaries up then it seems to me that she saw Obama as very REAL competition.
  • just4clinton
    I think that is how a great many people felt. The flip side to that is the amount of peace and prosperity that we saw during just 8 years. The country had never been that well off and while part of it was merely timing...the 90's followed a very unstable economic situation of the 80's the majority of it was the abstract and brilliant political minds of the Clintons

    I do not see brilliance in Obama. I see shrewdness. I see someone that smiles in your face and then stabs you in the back. I could not imagine denouncing the Man who married me and my wife and baptized my children. His best selling book was named after on of Wrights sermons "the audacity of hope" I just don not believe that Obama is just now learning that wright felt the way he does. Surely obama has known this throughout the 20 year relationship they had. I do not trust a person willing to dump their mentor for what the presidency? Obama is a gangsta (and make no mistakes he a gangsta in the true definition of the word people often mistake thugs for gangstas) from chicago's south side who in my opinion would do just about anything to get into office.

    I think Cornell west said it best in his response to barak obama not showing up at Kings memorial this past may when he said "I am in deep disagreement with my dear brother Barak Obama, the truth is in tension with the quest for power".

    Finally I would like to just say that say what you want about Hillary as a politician and a wife, but as a public servant since the day she set foot out of college she has truly made helping the children and the under privileged her life's work. She continues to do so.
  • vwcat
    I have been gone for a few days so I'm late answering.
    The whole Wright thing makes me laugh. Only those who are not familiar with the BlackChurch are scandalized. Do people really think that it is all smiles and kisses there. I have too many black friends over the years to be so naive.
    Besides if Wright was saying those things every sunday for 20 years, why are there only brief snippets of two sermons. 20 seconds. wow. The right makes it sound like it's all sermon every sunday. The man said controversial things twice for a span of 20 seconds.
    People these days have simply lost common sense and will believe anything. If this was all the time, why is there not more videos out with more stuff? duh.
    Shrewdness is part of being a very smart person. No person who is successful is not shrewd. It's called savvy as well. To be able to navigate in the world and make it you damn well better be shrewd or you will be eaten alive.
    But, both democrat and republican, friend or foe in the senate all say the same thing about Obama. he is a brilliant man. Extreemly smart. They all talk about this keen intellect and that is probably one of the smartest people they have ever met.
    Especially in politics in their careers.
    The thing that you guys who are all gooey about the 90s is that you are looking back with rose colored glasses after 8 years of Bush. You see things in a prism of romanticized form. The 90s were okay. The peace was a falliacy as we went into Somilia and we went into kosovo and we fought against Bin laden even then and the 93 bombing, the 2000 new years day plot and of course there was Waco and Oklahoma city. Just to name a few. We had home grown terrorism. Remember Atlanta during the Olympics.
    There was also a bubble created by the internet boom. It was Silicon Valley that created the economic boom years. It just happened during clinton's watch. but, anyone could have been president during that time and would have seen the same thing.
    I am not saying Clinton was all bad. I am saying he just was not that good. He will be historically rated average. Not in the top ten. Not great. He will be rated average. In the middle. He looks better then he actually was because he had the luck to be followed by the worst president in history who has destroyed the country and economy and our reputation.
    Just like Coolidge. He was okay. but, ended up looking better then he was for a while because of Hoover.
    But, clinton was not great. I did hope in 92 that he would be a very good president because he was smart and a savvy pol. But, his personal weaknesses and inability to navigate things without upheaval and his losing the congress brought his presidency lower. but, with all the scandals and dramas and chaos of the clintons, it was their undoing of the 90s. It was not all the right wing doing. Alot was brought on by the clinton's themselves. They simply could not be open and honest. And that just caused more suspicion. But, with the ongoing women problems, the renting out of the Lincoln bedroom like it was the motel 6, the pardons with it's f you air to the country, the lifting of white house furniture and antiques when they left, I was so turned off of politics I became apolitical for awhile. I did not want to know about it or care about it. Every time I saw Gore I associated him with Clinton and I felt nauseated. I refused to vote for Bush who i saw as an idiot. So, I di
    d not vote in 2000.
    By 2004, Bush had me so pissed off and angry I got involved again. Partly because of the anti french witch hunt by the republicans. My molther is from France and during that time people hated the french. A french bristro close to my mother's was vandalized and my mom lives alone. I was terrified for her. I always disliked republicans but, i outright hated Bush and republicans for that. For the first time in my life I had a tiny taste of what prejudice was like and it is terrifying. And depressing.
    Shortly after Kerry lost i discovered blogs and it was so wonderful to find fellow democrats and progressives.
    But, I think clinton's weaknesses turned off alot of democrats and left us so dispirited by the end of the 90s that many of us were totally turned off and it allowed someone like Bush to win. Many of us just did not feel like voting and felt so depressed by the Clintons that we were left apathetic to Gore. Some voted for nader to retaliate. Some stayed home and we ended up with Bush.
    I don't excuse my not voting but, that is what happens when you decide to retaliate because you are pissed off and it seems a Clinton is again involved. It seems the Clintons cause so much division and upheaval and splintering where ever they go. In and out of the party. They are walking destructiveness and polarizing influence.
    Diane

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  • just4clinton
    I am not sure what type of Black churches your friends go to but they are the type that give Christianity a bad name. I am black and have gone to black churches my whole life and never heard a sermon like that come out of the pulpit. Just because we (black America ) agrees with Wright does not excuse the fact that the pulpit is the worst place to spew such hateful rhetoric. If Wright and other in the black religious community were really interested in bringing these injustices to light surely the pulpit could have been used in a better way. Really his comments coming out of his mouth in a place of worship was really just tacky and low class. We should be rising above that. Is that not what the Obama campaign is truly about?

    It would appear to me after these primaries that since Obama is now playing bring the coalition back together that perhaps he is just as polarizing a figure would it not.

    And when we speak of change lets be clear on what change is. Obama is not going to abolish the very illegal income tax is he? He is not going to dismantle the quite privately owned Federal Reserve (or even bring it to the attention of his citizens that is privately owned and operated and is not federally regulate) is he? He is not going to stop borrowing money from the Federal Reserve with their ridiculous interest rates is he. He can not stop the Rothschilds can he. Does he even know who they are? Do you? If you or Obamas other supporters wanted change you would have voted for Ron Paul. But we don't want change in this country do we. Most of us like Obama are actually afraid of real change because we would not only change the US but the world as we know it.

    I digress now
  • vwcat
    In Rockford some are like the ones like Wrights.
    Have you ever youtubed the whole sermons that those came from. if you listen to the whole sermon you will be quite surprised by how out of context those clips are.
    What was wrong was that Rev. Wright got upset over the way the media treated him by not putting those sermons in context and went after them at the press club and tried to hurt Obama on top of it in his anger.
    But, the sermons were very much out of context. In reality they are not hate speech and were part of something entirely different.
    See, the media likes to give only sound bites and never explains the whole of things which are mostly much tamer then the conflict they are peddling.
    Just like this weekend the media spent it tearing down Obama for something that was not true. Obama was vilified in the press all weekend for supposed changing of his Iraq stand (and they threw in guns and abortion stands) They are peddled by the gop and mcCain to make Obama appear like flipper. The media was too lazy to do any fact checking and just repeated what they were told.
    In reality it was a lie. Any fool with google and youtube could have checked what Obama's stand was on any of the issues over the past year and half. They would have found he has been consistent on is policy. But, they did not. Instead they trashed the man for something he did not do - flip. He has said the same things on these issues and yet they peddled lies.
    Same with Wright. Those sermons in complete are really not very controversial. But, the media peddled it to make it look as shocking as possible.
    You Hillary supporters do not know the half of what the media did to Obama. You think they only did things to Hillary and it was mild to the lies they peddled about Obama.
    And still are.
    But, you don't hear us screaming at you guys for not saying anything to stick up for our candidate. or for Hillary not doing so. Because it was not your responsibility or Hillary's. Yet you guys get all pissy at us and Obama because you seem to think it's ours to tell the media.
    You guys only see one side of things and do not even see any other. And then make all this noise thinking everyone else is suppose to deal with it.
    I simply am amazed by this. I can give many times that the media trashed obama falsely. And they are doing so now.
    You are not suppose to criticize McCain and they refuse to tell half of the things about him. Did you know one of his houses was in default a week ago for failure to pay taxes for the past 5 years? A small blurb in Newsweek is all.
    But, no one hears about that.
    But they peddle fake stories about supposed position changes of Obama that was indeed lies. And they are still trying to peddle the garbage.

    I would like to know exactly what it is that you can only see Hillary as the only person to vote for and why you dislike obama so much? Have you ever tried to find out anything about the man? What has the Clintons ever done that Makes Hillary the only person viable for the presidency in your eyes.
    What makes you think Hillary is even capable of the job? What is her record in the senate? most of her work involved naming places after people in honorary parks and buildings. I can email you a list of what Obama has done in the senate. And he has done quite alot of bills that are not getting attention because they were not big name items or 'sexy'. They were things that involved helping everyday people. He introduced several bills to help the people in New orleans to mention one.
    He doesn't do big and splashy stuff. Just very good and needed legislation for the little guy.
    You and your fellow hillary supporters have no clue to what Obama is about, what he has done or anything much about the man. You only think of him in terms of speeches. And speaking of speeches. Hillary like to put those down but, she did not seem to mind when Bill made millions off of his speeches. Those empty words and speeches kept her in big houses and comfort quite well. Made her the 109 million dollar woman. But, they are just speeches. just words. If they come from someone else and don't make her millions.
    I would suggest you do some research before you trash someone you obviously did not try to learn anything about.
    So, why do you think Hillary is the only person viable to be president and no one else is.
    diane

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  • vwcat
    Here is a list of Bills by Obama 2005 thru 2007. 2008 has not been complied so far.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery

    This is for bills sponsored and co sponsored:

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

    This is just for the US senate. If you want more, I can get the Illinois senate record for you.
    diane

    ps. this is bills sponsored and cosponsored by Hillary Clinton from 2001 up

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas
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  • vwcat
    These are bills sponsored by Hillary from 2001 up. she sponsored 90.
    Just for comparison with the ones by Obama from 2005 up. he sponsored 152, but this lists just up to 100.
    clinton
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

    Obama
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

    diane
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  • vwcat
    I was reading an article on Huffpo on how the republicans are going to attack Obama on racial grounds. Try to stereotype him from the old jim crow era and try to evoke white bias.
    this was expected.
    However, it got me to thinking.
    Hillary's supporters are defined largely as older, white women. Obama's as either african americans or young white college students.
    I don't know your age but, you say you are a black woman. And you supported Hillary.
    I am a 50 year old white woman who supports Obama.
    Do we defy the boxes the media tries to put people in or what? I am suppose to be the Hillary supporter and you are suppose to be the Obama supporter according to the little boxes the media tries to put people in.
    Oh, and I don't live in a big city, drive a prius or drink latte. My house is the size of a postage stamp in a working class neighborhood in a little big town in middle america.
    I do confess to be a big reader and history buff. Drive a vw bug and am half french and paint in oils. does that make me a liberal elitist? I like defying labels and boxes. My daughter says i thrill in being a rebel. Daring to be different. lol.
    Anyway, It just occurred to me and thought i would tell you.
    Love busting the little media boxes as well. hahaha.
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  • just4clinton
    LOL...I will take the fact you thought I was a woman as a compliment. Many people think that! Seriously though I am a young black man (25 years) and college educated at an all black college (I went to Morehouse) so I suppose you are right we are "supposed" to be supporters of one another's candidates. I believe that is what made this election so special. Obama was able to bring in Millions of young voters who were so displeased with politics. He captured independents and swayed republicans into joining the democratic camp. Hillary was able to motivate and harness the power of women as voters and managed to gain the respect and votes of middle America's white men the vote we felt she would have the hardest time capturing. It really goes to show that both candidates were outstanding throughout the primaries even if we may agree to disagree on many issues. I think it is because each group felt that their respective candidates were perhaps their only hope to getting America on the right track that regardless of who ended up with the nomination their stood the possibility of a sort of rift in the party. Truly, although I have heard all of the reasons why Obama should not pick Hillary, I think she is really the best choice for a running mate. It seems to me to be the best chance the democrats have at truly healing their coalition. I fear if they do not run together the animosity that is going on now (and I blame the DNC not Obama) may not evaporate by November giving McCain, the snowball's chance in hell to win, that he might otherwise have not had.
  • just4clinton
    I find myself more concerned with quality as opposed to quantity.
  • just4clinton
    Obama does have a tendency to flip flop on issues but that is neither here nor there I can imagine all politicians do.

    To answer your main question though as to why the only person I can see being President is Hillary and why I do not support Obama.

    Let me start with the latter part of the question. The most major issue I have with Obama is that he has no problem running as the candidate of MLK Jr's dream come true yet he shows no inkling of identifying with the black community. I am not interested in a black candidate who has to enter the white house through the back door. Black American's have entered through back doors long enough. Obama plays his race FAR to down as far as I am concerned. Yes I expect more from someone who identifies as possibly the first black president. When Wolf Blitzer during the early debates asked Obama if he supported reparation for black American's his answer was no. I was utterly appalled and disgusted from that point on especially since Dennis Kuchinch had enough guts to say YES blacks do deserve reparations and as president I would work to provide them and he isn't even black. This country has apologized to and provided reparations for the Jews, the Japanese and to some extent even Native American's. For Obama claim to be black yet not see the importance of supporting reparations for the group of people who suffered the most while simultaneously contributing the most to this country is insulting. We continue to suffer the most and our existence today is the direct result of what we endured throughout our history in this country. And the difference between the suffering of blacks in this country and other minorities is that we never asked to be here.We can not be lumped in with the many immigrants who came to this country on their own free will and endured hardships. We we dragged here in chains across the Atlantic ocean. Yes the middle passage was a HOLOCAUST! The selling of families, castration of our men and Rapping of our Women destroyed the black family unit. A unit we are still as a black community trying to fix. He compounded the insult of not supporting reparations by also refusing to attend the black state of the union, an event where he would have been our starred and featured guest. Finally his most disgusting act or should I say lack thereof was not attending the 40 year anniversary of Dr. Kings memorial. How dare you want to embody the dream yet not feel it more important to attend his memorial rather than stumping in Michigan(a state he didn't mind skipping the first go round). I do not agree with him going that far out of his way to prove he isn't running as the "black" candidate especially considering that the reality is he IS the BLACK candidate.
    Additionally, and this might be a little harder for you to follow, he allowed himself to be pimped out to white america. He rarely wore ties instead opting for a hipper looser fighting look. And every time he was featured in an article their was almost always mention of his sports background. Even today he decided to hold his acceptance speech on a football field rather than at the Pepsi center. I recognize that the only time white america is able to stomach a successful black man is when he is rapping or playing sports. Obama allowed himself to become the embodiment of this stereotype. Sorry but I will not help him by voting for him. He disappoints me as a black candidate and a black man. I do not look to him as inspiration but rather as an embarassment.

    Hillary on the other hand has never concerned herself with what the pundits would say. She brazenly takes on causes hoping that the good she intends will somehow find it's way out. Everyone is all Whooping about the prospect of Universal Health Care but where were the masses in 93' and 94' where were Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi then? Hillary stood alone against practically the country. She took her beating and came out stronger and better. I like Hillary because she is always willing to ask for the unthinkable. Her position on felony offenders is the only one of its kind that I have heard from a presidential candidate ever. She is interested in restoring the civil rights that non violent felony offends lose, that keeps them in the system. And as a young black man that speaks to me because it is people that look like Obama and myself who make up the majority of the prison population. And although I have been fortunate enough not to ever have been in the system myself, I know how many people from my neighborhood don't fare as well. The black community remains where it is because our men remain locked behind bars, and when they get out they are unable to enter back into society because they cant vote, or get jobs and because the can't have business licenses they are not even able to work for themselves. Because they spend their lives in jail from such young ages they also don't receive and education. Hillary also wanted to reinstall educational services back to our prisoners. Now that is true CHANGE. Hillary is better to me on issues that would really help this country such as education. She helped revamp the Arkansas school system and to this day teachers from their and around the country thank and support her. Finally their is a sector of the country that very few if any politician concern themselves with (besides blacks and latinos) and that is rural farmer of America. Because of her time as First Lady of Arkansas Hillary has first hand experience in improving the quality of life for our Farmers who we will one day need to turn to if things continue the way they are. We WILL need to harvest our own food rather than import it from around the globe. Her work in improving the living and health condition for those impoverished farmers of Arkansas is quite admirable in my eyes and is an indication of what she can do for the country. Hillary isn't here to be a rock star like Obama. She has always been here working for those less fortunate, impoverished and for children and families from her days working with Marion Elderman(sp) foundation until today.

    Before you count her out take a look at something that the media does not mention about her.

    Quite frankly we have had 43 male presidents throughout history. I think this country is desperately and severely in need of the maternal instincts of a Female leader. I honestly think that is what is truly needed after Bush.
    Justin
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