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More on the CERN Black Hole Issue: We Get Answers

BlackHole.jpgFollowing my original post on Europe’s CERN particle-physics lab’s safety review of the massive, Large Hadron Collider in France and Switzerland, we received quite a bit of feedback by comments and e-mail. Some of the more compelling information provided is to be found at the LHC Facts web site. Rather than copying a lot of information here, I’ll leave it to you to click through and check it out, but it is disturbing to note the number of influential astrophysicists who do not feel that the CERN safety evaluation has answered all the questions and are still quite alarmed that this facility’s operations could result in a frankly unimaginable disaster.

In what seems like an incredible coincidence of good fortune, we were already scheduled to conduct an interview this Tuesday, June 24, on Mid Stream Radio with Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson. If you ever watch The Discovery Channel, Learning Channel, History Channel or Science channel, you are already familiar with Dr. Tyson. He is interviewed for virtually every show on the cosmos and black holes. He is the author of the book, Death by Black Hole and Other Cosmic Quandaries among many other titles, with a new book coming out this winter. He is the Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History and is a Visiting Research Scientist and Lecturer at Princeton University. He holds advanced degrees from Harvard and Columbia and is undoubtedly one of the smartest people on the planet regarding this subject. If anyone can give us authoritative answers on this question, it’s Dr. Tyson.

In addition to talking about his new book and television science series, we were going to speak with Dr. Tyson about a lighter subject, (the “publish or perish” mentality in academia) but given the serious nature of this story, I think we will redirect our interview to discuss the implications of the Large Hadron Collider’s experiments. The interview will be at 1 PM eastern time on Tuesday, so if you have your own questions you can call in to the show or join us in the web chat to pose your queries there. (We’ll post a reminder on Tuesday morning with the details.)

In the original column, reader Kathyedits posed the following question:

Okay, no one here has asked what to me is the obvious question: What would it look like or feel like to watch the world being “eaten up” by a black hole (if it took a few days), and what would it feel like when the black hole reached us and started eating US up? Would it be like an explosion? An earthquake? A black cloud coming closer and closer and then …. nothingness?

I simply cannot believe I am the only person who has these questions. But nobody else asks them.

Kathy, not to be too terribly depressing, but Dr. Tyson has spoken on that very subject many times and provided a fairly detailed answer. First, when “looking” at a black hole, what we would see is exactly… nothing. The gravitational force of a black hole is such that not even light can escape it, so (at least in the visual light range) no image would reach your eyes. You would, however, see two beams of energy streaming away from the black hole at opposite poles.

What would happen to you? Dr. Tyson describes it as a process of spaghettification. As you approach the event horizon of the black hole, (or, in the case of the Hadron experiment scenario, as the event horizon approaches you!) you would begin to fall toward it. Sadly, the gravitational tidal forces surrounding it are so great that, (assuming you are falling feet first) the black hole would pull your feet faster than it pulled your head. This causes you to stretch out and eventually snap into two pieces. The pieces are also stretched out and continue bifurcating until you became a long string of dots which eventually reach the event horizon and fall over the edge and down into the singularity. So I’m afraid you could only enjoy the view of this spectacle from a distance and, even then, only for a very short time.

Now that I’ve cheered everyone up immensely on this Sunday morning, have a great day! Please feel free to join us on Tuesday to talk to Dr. Tyson and we’ll see if we can’t get some better answers.

e-mail the author: jazzshaw@gmail.com

CORRECTION: In the original column, I wrote that some scientists were concerned that a potential, stable black hole might “eat” the planet in “a matter of a few days.” As has been pointed out at the LHC Facts web site, most of the objecting scientists in fact think that the process may take “years or even decades.” Supporters of the project feel that such a theoretical black hole would only grow at a rate of “one quark at a time” and could take thousands of years to consume the Earth.

Ummm… guys? If you’re trying to make me feel better, it’s not working.

See part one or skp ahead to part three.

  • robertmarshII
    Any disaster scenarios, will reside within the ALICE Lead (Pb) Heavy Ion Collisions, and the ATLAS; scheduled (once financed) to begin in 2009. These two projects create magnitude density Plasma Waves, which can create Gravitational Waves; thus a Curvature of Space/Time, and the formation of a Vortex Ring, leading to a Compression Singularity. An Event-Horizon would boundary a forced equilibrium state perimeter, and a Quantum Wormhole could stabilize a 'jet-stream' of the Heavy Ion Beams. There are 8 Billion reasons for Michelangelo Mangano (and others) to have penned an expedited 'Safety Report'! CERN is grappling with multiple variance calculation paradoxes Right Now, and the issuance of a safety report (that is not conclusive) is just plain ridiculous!!!
  • You know Robert, I think I might possibly be inclined to agree with you if I understood more than six words from what you just wrote. :-)

    Mostly, I'm just curious to find out if we're all going to die.
  • JTankers
    A good discussion in layman's terms is available on YouTube video. Interview with Nuclear Physicist Walter L. Wagner (of LHCDefense.org) on Coast to Coast AM "LHC may cause mini black hole and swallow earth":

    part 1 of 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL2ghqv5mCg
    part 2 of 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTTbVmxbqZM&feat...
    part 3 of 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oabjc8hr6n0&feat...
    part 4 of 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJQO-bkqBHw&feat...
  • JTankers
    Hello Jazz,

    I am a bit perplexed by the comment above also, but the Wikipedia article on the Large Hadron Collider is good resource to find very summarized main stream, (currently) balanced safety arguments. Some of the discussion pages are also informative, and reasonably comprehensible I think.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Colli...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Large_Hadron_...

    As for your primary question... many of us at LHCFacts.org, LHCDefense.org, and other independent organizations are asking similar questions and working to lower the uncertainty before high energy collisions begin at the Large Hadron Collider, stay tuned...
  • I've finished listening to the radio broadcasts linked above. This is a lot more complex than I first imagined. But thank you for all of the links and information. We'll probably want to interview more people than just Dr. Tyson.
  • runasim
    I will now have nightmares about terrorists creating black holes.
  • Don't think terrorists can manage it unless they can smuggle a tunnel 17 miles across cooled down to 2 degrees above absolute zero over the border. But there's more information available so I've put a Part Three post up.
  • runasim
    Jazz,
    That was my attempt at using humor to dispel fear.
  • WorldSentinel
    Dr. Tyson is partially wrong about what a black hole could do to you if it took days or years to eat Earth. Gravity will increase, and as you lay there, you will either die of starvation and thirst if this is a long drawn out process, or your lungs will collapse shortly before the atmosphere is absorbed by earth before implosion. If you're lucky and the destruction is quick, you might catch a few seconds glimpse of the earth imploding before you're sucked into it's dying furnace. You wont see the black hole, just Earths destruction.
  • WorldSentinel
    Spaghettification happens after your death, shortly before you shoot out the other end of the black hole as radiation.

    Hope I didn't ruin someones dinner.
  • WorldSentinel
    The problem with CERN's report, you can't compare colliding protons at the Large Hadron Collider to cosmic rays. The cosmic rays are hitting a stationary object, Earth, bouncing particles harmlessly into space. Kind of like a cue ball hitting racked balls on a pool table. Now the protons in the Large Hadron Collider are like cue balls colliding with each other, minus any stationary balls. And what happens when two cue balls traveling at the same speed collide with each other, they don't bounce anywhere, but stay right where they collided. So if the LHC were to create black holes with these collisions, it wont bounce into space harmlessly, but remain stationary, gravitating towards the Earths center.

    Physicists at CERN are depending on an unwitnessed unproven theory to protect Earth against micro black holes from growing, Hawking Radiation, which has already been proven in error once, admitted by Stephen Hawking when he lost a bet to John Preskill of Caltech.
  • kathyedits
    This causes you to stretch out and eventually snap into two pieces

    Well, first of all, I'm sorry I asked. But second, it's somewhat comforting to realize that I would most certainly lose consciousness long before I snapped into two pieces.
  • SaneScience
    Man's technology has exceeded his grasp. - 'The World is not Enough'
    Zealous Nobel Prize hungry Physicists are racing each other and stopping at nothing to try to find the supposed 'Higgs Boson'(aka God) Particle, among others, and are risking nothing less than the annihilation of the Earth and all Life in endless experiments hoping to prove a theory when urgent tangible problems face the planet. The European Organization for Nuclear Research(CERN) new Large Hadron Collider(LHC) is the world's most powerful atom smasher that will soon be firing subatomic particles at each other at nearly the speed of light to create Miniature Big Bangs producing Micro Black Holes, Strangelets and other potentially cataclysmic phenomena.
    Particle physicists have run out of ideas and are at a dead end forcing them to take reckless chances with more and more powerful and costly machines to create new and never-seen-before, unstable and unknown matter while Astrophysicists, on the other hand, are advancing science and knowledge on a daily basis making new discoveries in these same areas by observing the universe, not experimenting with it and with your life.
    The LHC is a dangerous gamble as CERN physicist Alvaro De Rújula in the BBC LHC documentary, 'The Six Billion Dollar Experiment', incredibly admits quote, "Will we find the Higgs particle at the LHC? That, of course, is the question. And the answer is, science is what we do when we don't know what we're doing." And CERN spokesmodel Brian Cox follows with this stunning quote, "the LHC is certainly, by far, the biggest jump into the unknown."
    The CERN-LHC website Mainpage itself states: "There are many theories as to what will result from these collisions,..." Again, this is because they truly don't know what's going to happen. They are experimenting with forces they don't understand to obtain results they can't comprehend. If you think like most people do that 'They must know what they're doing' you could not be more wrong. Some people think similarly about medical Dr.s but consider this by way of comparison and example from JAMA: "A recent Institute of Medicine report quoted rates estimating that medical errors kill between 44,000 and 98,000 people a year in US hospitals." The second part of the CERN quote reads "...but what's for sure is that a brave new world of physics will emerge from the new accelerator,..." A molecularly changed or Black Hole consumed Lifeless World? The end of the quote reads "...as knowledge in particle physics goes on to describe the workings of the Universe." These experiments to date have so far produced infinitely more questions than answers but there isn't a particle physicist alive who wouldn't gladly trade his life to glimpse the "God particle", and sacrifice the rest of us with him. Reason and common sense will tell you that the risks far outweigh any potential(as CERN physicists themselves say) benefits.
    This quote from National Geographic exactly sums this "science" up: "That's the essence of experimental particle physics: You smash stuff together and see what other stuff comes out."
    Find out more about that "stuff" below;
    http://www.SaneScience.org/
    http://www.LHCFacts.org
    http://www.risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
    http://www.lhcdefense.org/
    http://www.lhcconcerns.com
    Popular Mechanics - "World's Biggest Science Project Aims to Unlock 'God Particle'" - http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme...
  • Nice information, thank you
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