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Curbing Use of the Internet, You Bad Greedy Broadband-Width-Eating-Monster, You

First it was New York State signing into law a sales tax on all internet purchases arriving in New York, no matter where manufactured, where the point of purchase, what state lines the item had to cross. 8+% on every item. Starting this month, June 2008. Affiliate business across the country say they will lose as the cap for having to keep paper for Uncle New York is set by the guys up at Albany at 10k… the little guy in other words gets to mule the New York’s plow blade.

Now carrier companies like Comcast say they want to slow the access rates for big users of the internet, those who do file sharing for instance. Watch movies at hulu. Play games online.

You could get whiplash reading advertisements from gaming companies and Disneyesque ventures and itunes et al, all encouraging, luring, us to see, do, play the latest online… and then turn to be chastised –a little bit like a bad child– for what road hogs we are on the internet hiway. No consideration. And you know the rest of the drill.

It seems a little like the ideal customer in Comcast directors’ minds is a nice Mr Rogers who wears a nice cardigan sweater and lives with his cat in a two story walk up and only picks up his email once a day and goes nighty-night at 9pm.

Some are thinking this whole sudden “put those cookies back” is a bait and switch. AOL opened up huge access to the internet years ago. Now, the cable companies et al, say too many people are using it too much of the time to do too many byte-laden things.

Isn’t that always the trouble with talented and driven people from the get-go? They always use up too much paper, too much paint, read too many books at once. Geez. Now using up too much time. What next? Too many molecules?

Activists in the USA have been incensed over the last week, claiming that bandwidth speeds in the US are dismal, amateur-rigged, and prices charged astronomical in comparison to the sludge that’s delivered; that several Asian countries have speeds hundred times faster, for far less money.

I don’t know. Will Comcast Detention Hall have a bell ring, saying you’ve exceeded your quota, we’re kicking you offline? Suspended, you bad person you? Then the monitor goes black, the chair we’re in turns out to be an ejector seat and we are suddenly find ourself falling through the air toward Planet Dial Up? Or worse, Planet No-Connection-A-tall.

Maybe Comcast should just charge the porn sites. Seems that would generate a lot more money than us pathetic bloggers spending hours seeking, researching interesting things to suborn the– dry as a 15# piece of paper– news. And at the big bucks we get, why, if Comcast took a

percentage of our blogging income, Comcast would get exactly nothing, zero, zip, nada, from most of us.

But, probably they wont be thinking about people who labor through hours on the internet in love and out of a sense of fealty and duty. We all could have done with a medical rider for loss of eyesight over these many years. Not to mention the need for chiropractic.

Here’s the skivvy from the NYT online site: It’s a MUST READ

Charging by the Byte to Curb Internet Traffic
Saturday June 14,
By BRIAN STELTER

Some people use the Internet simply to check e-mail and look up phone numbers. Others are online all day, downloading big video and music files.
For years, both kinds of Web surfers have paid the same price for access. But now three of the country’s largest Internet service providers are threatening to clamp down on their most active subscribers by placing monthly limits on their online activity.

One of them, Time Warner Cable, began a trial of “Internet metering” in one Texas city early this month, asking customers to select a monthly plan and pay surcharges when they exceed their bandwidth limit. The idea is that people who use the network more heavily should pay more, the way they do for water, electricity, or, in many cases, cellphone minutes.

That same week, Comcast said that it would expand on a strategy it uses to manage Internet traffic: slowing down the connections of the heaviest users, so-called bandwidth hogs, at peak times.

AT&T also said Thursday that limits on heavy use were inevitable and that it was considering pricing based on data volume. “Based on current trends, total bandwidth in the AT&T network will increase by four times over the next three years,” the company said in a statement.

All three companies say that placing caps on broadband use will ensure fair access for all users.

Internet metering is a throwback to the days of dial-up service, but at a time when video and interactive games are becoming popular, the experiments could have huge implications for the future of the Web.

Millions of people are moving online to watch movies and television shows, play multiplayer video games and talk over videoconference with family and friends. And media companies are trying to get people to spend more time online: the Disneys and NBCs of the world keep adding television shows and movies to their Web sites, giving consumers convenient entertainment that soaks up a lot of bandwidth.

Moreover, companies with physical storefronts, like Blockbuster, are moving toward digital delivery of entertainment. And new distributors of online content — think YouTube — are relying on an open data spigot to make their business plans work.

Critics of the bandwidth limits say that metering and capping network use could hold back the inevitable convergence of television, computers and the Internet.

The Internet “is how we deliver our shows,” said Jim Louderback, chief executive of Revision3, a three-year-old media company that runs what it calls a television network on the Web. “If all of a sudden our viewers are worried about some sort of a broadband cap, they may think twice about downloading or watching our shows.”

Even if the caps are far above the average users’ consumption, their mere existence could cause users to reduce their time online. Just ask people who carefully monitor their monthly allotments of cellphone minutes and text messages.

“As soon as you put serious uncertainty as to cost on the table, people’s feeling of freedom to predict cost dries up and so does innovation and trying new applications,” Vint Cerf, the chief Internet evangelist for Google who is often called the “father of the Internet,” said in an e-mail message.

But the companies imposing the caps say that their actions are only fair. People who use more network capacity should pay more, Time Warner argues. And Comcast says that people who use too much — like those who engage in file-sharing — should be forced to slow down.

read more here…it’s a really informative article.

  • Neocon
    Anyone been around long enough to remember that AOL and everyone else used to charge $2.95 per hour to surf the internet.

    I know people that run servers and play games online. They eat up mega bandwidth by having 10-100 people in their own game world. They use services called Ventrillo or Teamspeak that allows them to talk to each other as they play the game. People are now setting up These servers to have nice chats with their family and friends around the world for free.....

    Tens of thousands of people run their own radio stations on the internet. For basically their monthly subscription fee. People come to their sites and download the streaming audio................again MEGA bandwitdth. There are many, many offenders out there doing precisely what you are poking fun at.

    It eats........no digests bandwidth.....Why should that be free?

    While the offenders might be porn I think some of the biggest offenders are teenagers and young adults who play online games. Everquest, Final Fantasy, Dark age of Camelot, Age of Conan, World of Warcraft. These people border on fanatical and they spend way more time on these online games then they do in real life.

    This is the types of people they are talking about. They are not talking about you and me. Internet surfers. People who blogg.

    Freedom of the Press. Sacred right. Huh? Anyone ever wonder why you have to stick quarters in the machine to have the right to read any paper you want?

    What is free in this country has never really been free. I pay nearly 50 bucks a month for high speed cable access. It costs me just to come here and annoy people with my views of the world..

    Free? There ain't no thing as a free lunch. If it appears to be free in America it just suffers that illusion.
  • archangel
    dear Neocon, that's a great point of view. VERY enlightening. 10-100 people in their own game world. I had no idea about that part. I wonder what will happen to people who have small stores on the internet with downloadable goods. Your fee for highspeed cable access is lower than out here in the Boonies. I think paying $600-1000 a year certainly has never been 'free' access. GIven that on tv cable channels are bundled together... like having to buy ten boxes of icky cereal in order to get the plastic cowboy... maybe the cable companies might charge for 'heavy users' on broadband, but maybe in terms of 'fairness' that they speak about, they'd unbundle the channels for cable tv, so people didnt have to pay so so much to get the 2 or 3 channels they really want. That'd be a complementary deal.

    Neocon, can you give us an idea of how MUCH bandwidth is availible and what dictates its finite quantity?, and how much, say a radio station broadcasting/podcastng for a couple hours each day would take up of the whole? That's the part that a lot of us dont know how to judge...what's actually availible compared to what large download sites, such as hulu, for instance, actually use.

    I hope you are right about NO MORE fees on bloggers and researchers. It's really enough already. Speaking of finite time versus no pay... lol

    dr.e
  • Good article as usual, Dr. E. Having invented and developed the Internet, we're now pathetically backward in cost and speed, as you point out. While we treat bandwidth as a private resource for Comcast and others to profit from, the nations that are eating our lunch, such as India, China and Korea, have massively better speed and hence a better competitive edge in high tech ventures.

    neocon, internet bandwidth is not the property of Comcast and AOL etc. It's a limited public resource that we allow these companies to profit from. If they're not good enough to compete with India and Korea, let some other company manage the public bandwidth. Or allow cities and states to offer better access to help their home state businesses. This is reminiscent of the electric utility battle. The utilities just couldn't get electricity to rural areas because more population dense areas were more profitable for them. Public works utilities like the TVA were formed to supply these underserved Americans. Suddenly it wasn't so unprofitable after all, and the utilities promptly wired areas to avoid competition from the public sector. Today, Comcast et al use their political clout (formerly called "bribery") to get legislators to quash competition with laws to protect them, including the law that prevents states and cities from providing their citizens with public WiFi.

    We have much to gain as a culture from dramatically improved broadband. Throttling speed works against all of us. This isn't about broadband use costing ISPs too much. It's about protecting AOL/Time Warner from competition from online media, protecting Comcast and ATT from Skype and Yahoo. But the same throttling of bandwidth to shut down video conferencing by Skype users prevents businesses from using state of the art tools to be more competitive. It's bad business.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    Whenever I hear Comcast and others whine about the cable hogs I remember that we still haven't absorbed the dark fiber that was produced by the dot com bubble. And for what I'm already paying for my high speed internet access I will resent it if Time Warner suddenly tells me that they want to limit my bandwidth.
  • Jim_Satterfield
    And GreenDreams is correct in his last paragraph.
  • Neocon
    The internet flows like a river. Things muck it up. It is only so fast. Nothing that we can do can speed it up but their are many things that can slow it down. Ever wonder why sometimes you click on TMV and it takes a long time to load. Other times.........poof and its loaded?

    This is bandwidth issues. If I want to throttle the internet then I can use high bandwidth applications. Such as game servers where 1000's are clogging up a certain part of the internet. The internet was built and designed so that the internet will seek the path of least resistance and the packets will be redirected along another pipeline. Start filling up all those pipelines with high bandwidth applications and suddenly it matters not if you have a 100 megabyte connection.

    NO matter what the internet is only so fast.

    People think that companies like AOL/Time Warner, Comcast, Qwest, Verizon, Worldcom, ATT, Bell, Rambus, Etc...etc. who have spent billions to develop the internet into what it is should just turn over to Mr. Greendreams the keys to their kingdom.

    The internet after all is public space.

    Oh really?

    Try to start a radio station without getting a license in any country. Buy a ham radio and start gabbing on the air without a license. I can find you in 3 to 5 minutes and pinpoint your location to within a block. Try to access the internet with out a point fo entry. ie your internet provider.

    Bandwidth is limited. Try hogging it and you should pay........IF YOU DONT>>>>>>>>>>>>the rest of us do. Allowing kids to run huge bandwidth hogs because its a free internet is just wrong. In the end we all pay for that. By having slower connections and having higher internet fees.
  • neocon, you're just emphasizing my point. Korea has 4 times the bandwidth penetration of the US. If Comcast et al can't compete with Korea profitably, then fine. Give the license to a more nimble American company. And Comcast didn't build the Internet, we all did. We paid for the fiber, the Army created the model and millions of nodes are self-invested in making it all work. It does not belong to the ISPs.

    Your views are anti-business, neocon. Throttling the capabilities of thousands of companies for the benefit of 6 is not a winning strategy for America. You can't throttle my son's game usage without throttling business usage. Any smart computer geek can shift their bandwidth to any port they want to, and encrypt the packets. No one can tell whether they're playing a game, watching a newscast, reading TMV, chatting or downloading music and porn. It's just small thinking to restrict capabilities to punish uses that compete with the big boys, or to make a Puritanical judgment that one use is legitimate while others are bandwidth hogs. Bandwidth is not limited in a meaningful way. It's limited because the companies WE have entrusted to deliver it want to maximize their profit at our expense.

    Comcast (my ISP BTW) sold me a package by telling me that with them I get a certain mB per minute. If they want to admit they can't really deliver it, then let others do it. Others who can deliver the bandwidth they promised. WITHOUT whining!
  • Incidentally, not to keep harping on Korea, because Bangalore's access is the envy of the world. But in Korea, no monopolies were granted to telecoms and even though 54% of Korean internet usage is online gaming, no one is complaining. In fact, companies are competing tooth and nail to deliver faster and cheaper access specifically to young Second Life or World of Warcraft addicts.
  • Neocon
    It does not matter if your sons packets are encrypted or not. You are just trying to hide a simple truism. Bandwidth is bandwidth no matter if the packets are encrypted or not. There is only so much bandwidth. People who are doing extreme bandwidth consumption activities are depriving the rest of us the right to enjoy the internet.

    There is a big difference between bandwidth and speed. And yet they are interrelated. The internet is a pipe. Fill it half full of water and it moves really fast. Have some people in one place clog up the internet (high bandwidth consumption)and it just shifts to another route. Do it in a second place and etc.

    However finally when you clog it up with enough clogs then you end up with a speed degraded internet. That is when its time for those who are resources hogs to pay extra. I never said they should be curtailed but they should pay.

    On cell phones you pay for what you use. ON regular TV if you order movies you pay for it. On Itunes you pay for how many songs you download. You pay for each gallon of gasoline. You pay for consumption. The more you consume the more you pay.

    Why should the internet be any different. It is not free speech right. It is not your inalienable right to have internet access. Im confused as to actually what your arguing.

    Im simply pointing out that some people, actually a vast amount of people use massive amounts of bandwidth and are paying no more then you and I who use a very limited amount. Why shouldnt I get a discount if they dont have to pay extra?
  • It's a series of tubes.

    Couldn't resist. Seriously, though, we have more bandwidth, speed and high-bandwidth applications than we could have imagined a few years ago. All three are and will continue to expand. That's a fact. The cable company has a monopoly because you can't have a dozen cables into every house. For being allowed to have the exclusive right to cable our homes and businesses, they agree to a certain level of service. If they can't deliver because more customers--predictably--are using the bandwidth they were promised, then they can sell off their network to a company that can. Other companies pitched our local government for the exclusive, and I'll bet any of the others will be glad to accept a default by Comcast and step right in. Business doesn't always have to run to big gummint to protect them from predictable market trends. Innovate, modernize or get outta the way.
  • Neocon
    Archangel

    Sorry I missed your questions so I will try to address them. My passion is internet security and I have been in the computer field since 1978.

    Bandwidth is a measure of the amount of data passing through a network at a given time. Things like huge images on web pages and needless questions posted to Usenet newsgroups waste bandwidth which could be better utilized for transferring information.

    In computer networks, bandwidth is often used as a synonym for data transfer rate - the amount of data that can be carried from one point to another in a given time period (usually a second).

    A full page of English text is about 16,000 bits. A fast modem can move about 15,000 bits in one second. Full-motion full-screen video would require roughly 10,000,000 bits-per-second, depending on compression. Some points have narrow bandwidth (indicating not much information can flow through at one time), and others have high bandwidth (indicating a great deal of information can flow through at one time). This term is commonly used in reference to "wasted bandwidth," indicating that some (or most) of the information flowing by a point is of no use to a user. "Wasted bandwidth" might include overloading a site's network connection (thus curtailing other users' use of the lines) or including lengthy signature files in Usenet postings or discussion groups. "Wasted bandwidth" is often relative: What one person views as wasteful might be essential to someone else.

    This then could be the file sharing of teenagers vs the file sharing of a corporation. Both have legitimate uses and needs. The teenager pays Comcast for example for this right. A major corporation pays for something like a T1 line which is tremendously expensive but also allows for much wider bandwidth because of the need by the corporation to get their information to and from their points in a timely manner.

    There is no imaginary bandwidth to the internet. Meaning that the file transfers actually occurs via telephone lines, electric transmission cables, fiber optic networks, sattelite relays, and various other means in which you can think of that would transfer the packet that leaves your computer with instructions to go to another computer somewhere in the vast realm of the internet.

    Unlike Television or Radio there is no specific frequencies that the internet resides in. The internet resides in a billion computers and servers around the globe all interconnected via the means I just outlined. To access the internet requires an entry point. ISP. It is your isp's then that are tasked with providing you with bandwidth that makes your connection fast or slow.

    I am paying for 15 megs of download speed. I usually get 13.5 when I run a test. I can run the test 20 times and get 20 different speeds. The choke point becomes the rate at which Comcast can transfer your signal via your home to wherever you want it to go. IF

    IF they have huge resource hogs that are using massive quantities of bandwidth then they in essence have created a choke point from their own servers which when you click TMV the signal goes to Comcasts servers and then is sent out into the internet till they finally reach TMV and then TMV responds with a packet transmission back to you via comcasts servers.

    How quickly this happens is essentially the bandwidth. When they promise 15 megs but can only deliver 12 then customers become annoyed. When they do packet sniffing they find huge resource hogs creating choke points on their bandwidth then they want to start charging and in fact if it becomes a problem they want to start curtailing these things by for example simply curtailing or slowing down the transmission of encrypted packets as Greendreams was talking about earlier.

    While this is not a violation this is certainly a reason for contention among the keep the internet neutral proponents.

    Speedtest.net

    Nice place to test your internet connection.
  • archangel
    dear neocon and everyone: could I just ask one ignorant question, well three ignorant questions so i know a bit more before I comment more? Where do satellites fit in all this? I say ignorant question because I have this idea that cant be accurate, that somehow a computer can travel on a ray to a sattelite where it's bounced to elsewhere in the world.

    broadband goes thorough phone lines but wifi goes thru where/what/how??

    and lastly, can people in the US somehow 'jump borders' and llink up say to the Korean access for speed et al? I share Greendreams and Jim Satterfield's ingishgts and neocon's consideration too, that having fast and cheap access is absolute in terms of keeping up with others in the world.

    I'm learning from all of you and neocon, I am digesting your last comment; thank you for taking the time to write it all out. I appeciate it. I have a Mac and the link you gave I think will work only for PC of the IBM kind. Thanks for the link for those folks.

    dr.e
  • archangel
    I thought I'd mention too, there are many church websites throughout the world, some of which use online games to solidify and teach at risk kids. I think too of mom and pop who live far from their grandkids who send in both directions great numbers of photos downloaded from cell cameras etc every day. Does Flicker take up lots of band width, and univsertieis who GOOGLE is digizting ALL of Harvard and U of Michigan etc, libraries to be avail online? ...

    I wonder how a cable co. structures use for those who are vulnerable, meaning fixed incomes and maybe trying to earn a little online business, or religious orgs, or just plain below poverty line but trying to rise up. Or Audible. com with their tens of thousands of audio downloads?

    I do get what neocon said about a river with lots of dams on it that keep moving from here to there, that the rest of the band river has to sort of 'leak through' whatever capillaries are left.

    That was a great teaching example about how TMV loads, neocon. You're right, sometimes everything is instantly almost, but most often not... and sometimes absurdly long load up. I have bought as much broadband speed as comcast sells, but am not sure I have ever really seen a diff by paying more. I can see why now, that may be true. The infrastructure is not built out to handle open flow of river.

    thanks, pls keep throwing your ideas out. Anyone reading this, and there are thousands who read our articles everyday without commenting, Others will learn from your discussion. My philosophy is there arent two sides to everything; there are several at least,... and some make more sense for some people, and others for other people

    but/ and, seeing/hearing from people lets ,many of us learn a lot... in Chinese, that means thank you, you guys.

    dr.e
  • Neocon
    Wifi is a local access that indeed does use up typical radio frequency but it is much like FM radio in that it only uses this access in very limited ranges. Up to perhaps a mile. 803.11 Gigahertz is mindboggling small frequencies that are hard pushed to even reach a mile.

    Wifi is a way to connect to your isp provider without using a hard wired connection. But its use is very localized and as such it has channels much like the old cb radios. I like to think of Wifi as a walkie talkie for your computer. You connect to the internet via your ISP but then you can send a signal without wires to other computers in your house or neighborhood if you so choose.

    In general, the lower the frequency the better the signal gets through stuff, think AM radio in the 540 to 1650 KHz ( a kilohertz is a thousand jiggles per second on a graph) range. AM works inside and it works in the rain. Satellite TV is generally at a frequency of 3.7 to 4.4GHz . For anyone who has ever had sattelite tv you know that you experience some interruptions due to weather because the signal must force its way thru precipitation. The higher the frequency the harder it is for the frequency to travel far. The higher the frequency the more power that is needed to make the signal readable. That is why AM stations at low frequencies can be heard 1500 miles away but FM which is in the 105Meg range can only be heard about 50 to 100 miles away. The FCC limits the power to FM stations thus by its nature ensuring that the signal can only travel so far.

    Most satellite Internet access providers use frequencies in the 11.7 to 12.7 GHz range. This is not a great frequency for this purpose, In fact, weather radars often operate in the slightly LOWER frequency range between 8.20 and 12.4 GHz. This frequency was chosen for weather radar because it DOES bounce off rain.

    Therefore we come to one of the many reasons why the US is wanting Television to go digital and thus freeing up the analog frequencies for other things. One of those things would be sattellite internet service with its lower frequencies providing huge leaps in quality and speed.

    7 Megahertz to 1 gigahertz is going to be freed up for other uses because television stations are being forced to go digital and thus 97 percent of all televisions in America do not receive their signal via these frequencies but do in fact use cable, Sattellite or other means.

    AS for Korea. One must remember that most of the transmission lines in the United STates were laid in the 40's-70's and that cable itself is a relatively new industry only gaining acceptance in the 70's.

    DSL which is digital subscriber line that piggy backs via telephone lines and therefore is not limited to the built in speed disqualifers of typical phone lines is also slowed by the fact that the phone companies have been slow to go to not only fiber optics but high speed fiber optics because of the massive outlay of capital needed for such an endeavor.

    Korea on the other hand had access to all the latest infrastructure and was able to install their internet lines using the latest and greatest. The government itself spent 25 billion dollars building a high speed internet service to an area the size of Maine. AS a result they are light years ahead of the US for purely an infrastructure reason.

    This I had to look up.

    A cursory look at the financial numbers shows why. During construction of the network, about 13.5 percent of South Korea's gross national product came from businesses selling equipment and services, Sang-kyoo Choi, the director of the IT Industry Cooperation Division, International Cooperation Bureau of the Ministry of Information and Communication (MIC), said in an interview.

    And this is why they did it.
  • archangel
    well neocon, several thoughts. First of all I hope you teach professionally. You are clear and have taken a really complex set of topics and explained them straightforwardly in understandable ways. That's a heck of a skill

    I did not completely understand why we were all getting the bum's rush toward digital TV. Now I understand better re your explanation. I was on the fed's site the other day looking at the budget (pure masochism I assure you) and wanted to see what kind of money the feds are spending on communications. It's there, but it is so convoluted in its reporting that it is difficult to see where the government's emphasis is backed up by actual building/action. It appears they are much more into control than into building. Frankly someone like you should write those many pages; then it'd be clear

    I appreciated the lesson on weather strangling pathways, and the 'strength' of different FM/Am ranges. I'd often wondered after I drove the Pan Americna highway how I could practically all the way in Panama in the middle of the night, broken down with a severed clutch cable on my jeep, get a Texas Christian station in the absolute middle of darker than death, nowhere.

    I hope to follow along this subject about who and how broadband is parsed. If you see any articles or have a burning idea on these matters, shoot an email to Joe: he almost always knows where I am in this wide world. That goes for you too GreenDreams and Jim Satterfield.

    Neoncon, a lot of what you have outlined reminds me of a game itself; in psych, we call it game theory, wherein the end aim is often pure, but the realities to enjoin that aim rise up and try to contravene everything that attempts the end aim. On a pop culture level this is called 'murphy's law' ... but in game theory, the thwarting of rapid movement often contains surprise ventures that are valuable, and that would not have ordinarily arisen if pathway from A to B was a clear shot.

    Korea. 25 Billion. Seems like such small potatoes in one way. Given the huge amounts of money US borrowed from Asia and elsewhere to finance the wars...also billions. But a huge amount nonetheless. I thought too when I read your last paras about Romanian's telling me about Ceaucescu's desire to have Bucharest be /look exactly like the long promenade to the Premiere's palace in North Korea, and spent practically the total GNP to do it, but without any ideas for laying communications networks, cable/ et al, because Romania's dictator thought radio was good enough, and TV to him was the end all and be all. And what more could people want?

    Surely in this global economy people need access. It's striking to think of how vapidly many heads of state used to think about these critical matters. Or not think at all.

    dr.e
  • Neocon
    In hindsight Korea will be the one having to keep up. There are processes in the works and indeed are in places in some parts of our country to give 30-50 meg internet speed. Korea is only in the 20 range.

    The internet and technology revolution is moving so fast that these major corporations that bring you high speed internet have to move cautiously.

    Why?

    Simple. If they rush out and spend about 400-600 billion redoing this IMMENSE countries infrastructure with current technology............by the time they are finished it will be OBSOLETE.

    So they could all rush out and spend upwards of a trillion dollars getting us up to a speed of 15-30 meg download speeds and that sounds awesome doesnt it.

    Well when we were all using 26.6 modems I thought I was the bomb when the 56k modems came out. Then when we all got used to 56k modems there were these rumors of Asymmetric Digital subscriber lines coming to a phone near you. ON the flip side their was another form of internet communications called DSL or digital subscriber line.

    What to do. What to do. The ADSL could carry way more speed but it was essentially one way. Meaning you could download really fast but you could upload like a snail in hibernation. Thus the name. Or you could go with Digital which was slower for download speeds but it allowed you faster upload speeds. There as a big debate. Who wants to upload stuff. Everyone wants to download stuff. Well to make a long story short the DSL format won out.

    Well 256k DSL made its debut and we all were in heaven. Then 1.5 megs came along and were like wow. Then cable showed up with its 5 meg speeds. Then DSL changed to 8 meg downloads for a steep price. Then cable upped its speed to 8 megs. Now cable in places is offering 15 megs and in a few places where they have been willing to spend the money they have run lines that offer 20 megs.

    The point is simple here. The technology is continuing to shift and will continue to shift. The industry has to spend perhaps a trillion dollars in new infrastructure for a nation our size. The government dont spend a penny. All these companies that Greendreams seems angry with have to spend their own money to bring you the very best.

    Right now we all know that 10 or 15 megs is not the very best. HIgh Definition TV needs about 20 megs to work properly. Once the industry gets to the point where they can offer 30 megs then I think you will see a big investment in the infrastructure.

    But they are not going to go out and run lines to joes farm in the hills only to have him writing town hall 5 years from now complaining about piss poor 15 meg download speeds when everyone else is doing 30-50 megs.
  • Good discussion. Neocon, I'm not "angry" with the ISPs, just interested in seeing that they either fulfill their promises or admit they can't.

    The telecom act of 1994 gave 6 companies a virtual monopoly on handling our progress into broadband. As pointed out above, using subscriber payments, they laid so much fiber optic cable that much of it is still dark. We subscribers did our part for the future. We financed the infrastructure that is still unused.

    It seems to me that in the pursuit of higher quarterly profits, they now want to throttle some of the traffic that Neocon characterizes as "wasted". But a huge segment of their subscriber base wants exactly those "wasted" or "bandwidth hogging" applications. Current ISPs will either deliver or admit they can't.

    Things are changing fast; computers are faster and have more memory. "Web 2.0" is here, though vaguely defined, and includes social networking, blogs, YouTube, Facebook, Digg, Flickr, etc. "Web 3.0" is -also poorly defined- taking us away from memory hogging applications on our computers to online programs running centrally. A perfect example is Google Docs, on which you can do word processing, spreadsheets and presentations (Powerpoint) online without having these applications running on your computer or even owning the applications. You don't need to buy a program to do any of these tasks any more. This is the trend of the future, and has led some to propose that Vista may be Microsoft's last operating system. There are now minimal computers sometimes called thin clients, that don't bother with big resources like lots of memory, but rather, depend on "cloud computing" meaning that your data and your application is in the "cloud", that is, online.

    There are already computers available to take advantage of this trend, costing $199 for a desktop and $299 for a laptop. This can bring our computer using population up to a high % of the general population. Every student can have an inexpensive computer, but the applications depend on having quick access to the "cloud". Neocon's right that it's way easier to transmit the image of the document you're editing if the bandwidth isn't being gobbled up by people uploading and downloading big images or video. But that's not the reality today. People DO want to share images, video and files, including music. And it's not just teenagers. Applications you use update regularly with files that are often the size of an entire album of MP3s, or even more. Apple no longer packages iTunes with iPods. They rely on their customers to download a 70 mB application and install it (roughly 15-20 songs in MP3 terms or a similar number of YouTube videos). When it needs updating, it's 15-40 mB depending on how much they've changed. The same applies to "security patches" from Microsoft.

    Long story short, EVERYONE wants to move ever more data. The ISPs need to keep up, not lobby government to slow the progress of computing for the sake of their profit. If the federal government stays out of it (now I sound like a republican), the market will advance those companies who offer more to their customers at a better price, as it should. But the monopoly situation makes it imperative that these companies not be allowed to slow progress as electric utilities tried to. It's in all our interests to have a populace well wired for the future, just as it was critical to have universal access to electricity, even if some customers were going to be less profitable than others. In the case of utilities, the government said "if you can't serve these customers, we will do it ourselves." The specter of government nonprofit competition scared the utilities into rethinking their strategy. We're in the same situation now. Some municipalities tried to open up access to all their citizens. The ISPs bribed Congress to make it illegal rather than competing honestly. In the end, trying to hold back progress will fail, and those companies that "get it" will surpass those that don't.
  • archangel
    Hello there guys, guess what I saw tongiht? An ad for Sprint, all the every thing you want, as much as you want, as long as you want... text messages, long distance, email, ipodniks, downloads, tweeter, twanger, twitter and skitter for 99.00 a month. Very interesting. As big, as long, as strong as you want. Wait... arent the companies saying rationing? Whiplash. I swear.

    And GreenDreams, I understand, I think the patience we have all had for years of customer service speaking a language other than English, trying to communicate over simple things and having to spend hours, promises given and not kept.... It sort of weaves itself into some bigger promises not kept, some ever growing bungling burglarizing bureacracies. And other stuff that just doesnt work as good as two tins cans and a string.

    Okay, kidding on that last. But, I think we live in the same mind set about some of these matters. Neocon has done a great and generous job explaining into the deeper layers. That helps, I think. It's actually hopeful in some ways. Hopefully 'effective' in the big corps living up to their promises, is what will win my heart.

    ps I dont think you sound like a republican or a democrat or other. I think you sound common sensiical. God knows we need more people who can actually think instead of just carrying dark space in the cortex. So stay Green Dreams, close by. I always learn from you too.

    and your point neocon about obsolecence being a drag factor on multi-billion dollar development in situ, is well taken. I see your point.

    Just one last comment GreenDreams, I have never seen a utility utilized/needed by the masses thrive when it becomes smaller or slower, whether airlines, trains, PSco, phone cos, or other. And you're right sometimes the big guys knock the very efficient little guys over. We were on Rural Electrification for years, and they did a GOOD job; my husband worked for RE for a time, and the bosses locally were good people. Mingling with us unwashed and all. But when Cable, first Jones, and then another and finally bought up by Comcast... the layers of phone call waiting alone, well you could practically celebrate your next birthday before they'd answer. And drop the call in the middle of it all so you'd have to start over again. Not to mention where I live in a high bold weather place, the outage of my dsl pretty consistently. Lol. What a world we live in.

    Agreed too, people want more ability to moviecate, filmjumble, music lollie around, rather than less. Me? I'd just like to learn WordPress so I dont accidentaly keep erasing about one in ten of my articles for TMV. I work really hard at them and it takes me a long time to write. Some days, I think i need a minder. lol

    dr.e
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