Impeachment! (America yawns)

"...waiting until five months before a presidential election immediately makes the move suspicious in all of our minds."

Yes, one may wonder whether Kucinich is a closet McCain supporter...or at least a drama queen absorbed in his own interests at expense of his party's. The looney left are all excited by this, of course, but Pelosi will certainly deep-six it. I imagine Conyers has been given instructions to keep a low profile.

Senator Obama needs the swing states...and forcing him to answer questions and take a stand on the impeachment of his predecessor will not help Obama in projecting a non-partisan image and relegating toxic politics to the past.

The great GOP hope, of course, is that the Democrats lack Jazz Shaw's common sense and move forward on this file...to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

They Impeached Clinton.

Bush Should be impeached.

Then we can Impeach Obama.

And the next president.....

And the next president....

And the next president....

All because we dont like them.

Will the Democrats break out a shovel and lower it further?

Did you really write this? You may not think it is a good idea to impeach at this time. But impeaching Bush in NO way would lower the bar. Impeaching Bush is orders of magnitude above the BJ impeachment.

If you’ve got the goods, produce them sir.

The Case for Impeachment: The Legal Argument for Removing President George W. Bush from Office

Articles of Impeachment Against George W. Bush (Paperback)

The Constitution in Crisis: The High Crimes of the Bush Administration and a Blueprint for Impeachment (Paperback)

Need more?

If not, what say you and your colleagues stop the nonsense and actually get down to work?

What work? Nothing of any importance is going to be done between now and January 20, 2009.

Neocon,

Cause there is no real difference between a blow-job between consenting adults and the lies that lead to the invasion and occupation that causes at least half a million dead civilians, two million or more refugees.

Listen folks... as stated, I am no fan of GWB. I opposed the Iraq war from the beginning and was one of those "loons" out there marching in the streets back in 2003. But impeachment has rules. You have to be able to prove convincingly that the president actually committed a crime, not just did something that most civilized people found abhorrent. If Congress could prove that the commander in chief actually broke the law by launching that invasion after getting Congress to sign on with an authorization to use military force, I think they would have done it by now. This just smells of political showmanship. They'll never get a conviction. So why are we wasint our time? And do you really want a President Cheney finishing out the term?

Speculating about Kuciniche's timing may or may not have solid ground to stand on. If his timing may be politically motivated, so may be speculations about it.
I can't see that it matters a great deal.

The legacy of Clinton's impeachment is that it cheapened the role of impeachment procedings. It also tore the country apart.

Add that to the division over the war, and the Dem. leadership had their hands tied when it comes to Bush, An impeachmetnt earlier, or even now, would have been like throwing dynamite into a fire.

Pragmatism prevailed, and I side with pragamtism, but it comes with a high price.
Clinton's impeachment arose from persoanl behavior in a personal matter
The case against .Bush concerns the Constitution and the balance of powers between the three branches of government. The first,less important, killed the second, more important one,,before birth.

In my view, it's not about punishing Bush. It's about his legacy for future presidents. In suppor of some of Bush's actions, FDR and Lincoln are cited as examples of what a president can do. Now Bush has been added to the list of those that can be cited to support or excuse the actions of a future president.

Whatever Kuciniches motives are, I'm glad his articles of impeachment are in the record. I hope they may be the basis for a serious discusssion about the substance of them one day, before they're forgotten.

Future presidents should have this warning as well as the precedents set by Bush as references. .

"High Crimes or Misdemeanors" pretty much means whatever you want it to mean and if lying to Congress isn't a good enough reason for impeachment, say good-bye to Democracy.

Huh?? This country has moved into a parallel universe or something... The prozak has rotted the nation's brains... Apparently especially the so-called "moderates".

To the article's Author: Yawn, eh? Maybe if you had published the 38 counts, and let these good people read them, then there would be slack jaws from shock instead. But u really don’t want them to read those, do you... You will do that for them, and decide for them. You want to tell them it's OK, go back to sleep, nothing to get upset about, its just a silly aberration.

Included there, were the indictments that the bush regime, through the CIA, has hired and armed ARAB TERRORISTS to cause murder and mayhem in Iran......

What say u now, o last-standers for bush? Your last moral high ground pimple has been popped; and the abyss having to admit to supporting pure evil "yawns" under you.

To infer there was EVER anything but the right thing to do regarding Impeachment and upholding the Rule Of Law shows what a cynical, self-centered, brain-washed, utterly morally bankrupt country we have become.....

"Oh, its messing up our Mc Cain vs. Obama show!" Lol. Well, bush's criminal activities, and his trying to get us into ANOTHER illegal war in Iran, is messing up my children's future.... So you and your silly rained-on party can go cry about it all u like… Meanwhile something REAL is very likely going to happen for once.

Attacking Kucinich for doing the only morally right thing to do is typical (when there is dim lack of reasoned arguments, personal attack is the holy way of the right and their water-carriers), but it still amazing to see what a ridiculous extent people will go to self-justify and excuse... To keep from having to say they were wrong for supporting this CRIMINAL MURDERING USURPER in the past.

Its a sad day for America. Not because 38 well-documented and easily proven Articles of Impeachment were read in the Congress last night; but because the mainstream media (and even blogs like this one) are trying their utmost to down-play, discount, or outright ignore it... Pretend it didn’t happen and it will go away… Instead of honestly reporting on it. No, not this time, it’s not going to go away. Prayer won’t help you now. Maybe a good lawyer can.

It won’t go away, and your worse nightmare is about to become real: That soon you will have to admit to yourself that you followed evil, and allowed it to flourish.

Dick: “Dammit, we should of closed-down CSPAN like I told you! And killed that commie too when we had the chance! Now it’s all been entered into the public record!”

Dubba-u: “Don’t worry, its too late. Nobody cares what we’ve done anymore... All they care about is themselves. At least we’ve done that right.”

Getting emotional (I wanted to say hysterical) isn't going to help.

I think an attempt at impeachment would do more harm than good.
At any rate, it's not going to happen.

As a consequence, though, we are left with the legacy of Bush's precedents.

Instead of getting stuck on what can never be, why aren't there any ideas about how to prevent the worst of Bush's precedents from being adopted by his successors?

It's time to think about Plan B.
Any ideas?

Jazz, about the timing. We have, in the past 2 weeks, the McClellan book and the Senate report that concludes that the administration knew or should have known their evidence of imminent threat from Iraq was faulty ("knew or should have known" is a legal standard for negligence), and that the administration's proclamations were "propaganda" designed to lead us into war under false pretenses. Polls a few years ago showed huge public opinion that Bush should be impeached if he lied to get us into war.

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but the justification is there, and truth is, Congress is negligent in not pursuing it. Personally, I'd rather see them prosecuted as civilians for war crimes, in another country with which we have extradition treaties. It could happen.

When one considers all the evidence to date regarding events of the U.S. led Iraq invasion, including last week's Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's report, plus the many writings from those who worked inside the Bush White House, the scope and depth of the lying is staggering.

President Bush and his White House Neo-Con-men (who signed the Project for the New American Century manifesto for world domination at all cost) should be put on trial before the public for the atrocities they have caused.

And Speaker Nancy Pelosi should be investigated for aiding them, saying the impeachment issue over the Iraq War is "off the table", and as she states in a recent letter to me, "I believe impeachment proceedings against Vice President Dick Cheney will distract us from our mission…". Well, to Ms. Pelosi and all those who are relentlessly enabling this epic tragedy of senseless death, shattered lives, broken families, mind-numbing abuses of our hard-earned tax dollars, savage corporate exploitation; I say, JUSTICE IS NO DISTRACTION! There is no justice without impeachment!

Many in Congress and the Senate had the same intelligence as the White House administration, yet their conclusions were vastly different and, as it turns out, shockingly correct.

The press, which as we now know from Bill Moyers' insightful PBS documentary, "Buying the War", rather than giving us the benefit of being watch-dog, instead served as lap-dog to the Bush White House—providing no real means for adequate public scrutiny.

The Congressional Black Caucus was, and is, a shining example of stewardship of the public interest and welfare. They stood in the House on the eve of the invasion on Iraq and made fact based, rational, and passionate presentations pleading with the President not to invade Iraq.

Sadly, most Americans to this day still do not know about those presentations because the mainstream press never reported that historic event.

Nevertheless, I shall forever remember that night in 2003, while watching C-SPAN—those powerful words, with truth and humanity from Rep. Maxine Waters:

"Mr. President, you cannot substitute a preemptive strike on Saddam Hussein for finding the terrorists. We want the terrorists to be found….

We want to secure the homeland. We are worried that you have been diverted, that you are about to do this preemptive strike without the documentation….

Yes, every country should be able to defend itself, but we are in no danger from Iraq. As a matter of fact, that is probably one of the weakest points on the globe for us to attack. We are not threatened by Saddam Hussein….

What we see and we are witnessing is the mismanagement of America. Someone today criticized Senator Daschle because he talked about the diplomatic disaster. Mr. President, it is a diplomatic disaster. We are watching before our very eyes the mismanagement of our beloved country. Our schools are falling apart. You said you wished to leave no child behind, but, Mr. President, you have not funded assistance to education that will have our children in the best possible situations where they can learn. Our health care system has fallen apart. In my city, in my county we are closing healthcare clinics. We are closing hospitals….

Mr. President, you are not able to tell us what this war is going to cost and what the cleanup, what the revitalization, the reconstruction of Iraq is going to cost. The American people need to know where our dollars are going. The American people need to understand the cost of this war and why….

Mr. President, we must raise these questions. We must raise these questions because we are patriots. We are folks who love this country. We are folks who have stood by this country no matter what, and we will continue to stand by this country. We will continue to stand by our soldiers. But, Mr. President, you are going to have to account for the leadership that you are giving, and I say to you and all those who are advising you, be it Wolfowitz, be it Secretary of State Colin Powell, be it Condoleezza Rice, be it Karl Rove, or any of those in the inner circle, you are going to be held responsible for what takes place in this world, what takes place with this preemptive strike, what takes place with our soldiers and our families…."

It is now time for us, all of us, to speak up in the name of justice. Our laws say we are entitled to impeachment proceedings, and our morality demands it.

Because we were fooled into war with Iraq, there are so many in this country who weep at the mere sight of the empty chair at the dinner table, knowing their loved one will never return to break bread in the sacred fellowship of family.

Indeed, justice is no distraction! There will be no justice without impeachment!

Geez, folks, you need someone to state the obvious? Kucinich is nuts. He needs his tin-foil renewed and his neck-bolts tightened. His elevator doesn't go to the top floor anymore since his chimney lost a few bricks, and he's a coupla tacos short of a combo plate.

He and Ron Paul would make a lovely couple.

There is no doubt that he approved torture. He admitted that he knew the meetings were going on in the White House.
http://www.whyweworry.com/blog/2008/04/14/can-w...

Bush has also admitted to spying on Americans in contravention of the 4th Amendment.
http://www.whyweworry.com/content/?p=686

Those are very clear cases of the law having been broken. What more does the man have to do to earn an impeachment? Does he have to torture someone himself on national TV?

If you’ve got the goods, produce them sir. If not, what say you and your colleagues stop the nonsense and actually get down to work?

The goods have been on the shelf, you may have to get up on your tippy-toes to see them , but they are there above the candy-coated whitewash of this administration.

God forbid Bush gets caught in flagrante delicto with a page...then it's high and mighty righteous impeachment time!
I love how the status quo has become the How Low Can You Go Status Quo.

Chip away at freedom and liberty a little bit here and there and the people won't take notice- take a big chunk out at once and it's a Revolution.

140$ per barrel of oil. No reason for it besides lining the pockets of Oil Execs and Saudi Kings.

Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia? They harbor terrorists after all.
The Bush family and Saud house are joined at the wallet.

People are afraid of the truth, and the consequences. We have become an act without consequences nation/generation. When a football star becomes an alleged spouse killer, and gets acquitted by a circus court, when a President takes a country to war ( though no official Declaration of War was made by Congress, rather an approval for use of force instead which essentially gives the President a blank check to fire at will) based on falsified evidence and has done nothing but subvert the principles and ideals of Democracy he so vehemently vaunts, what do you expect?

Hahahaha...I had no idea McCain had so many supporters here at TMV! :)

Runasim is right.

Simply as a matter of pragmatic politics...if there are full scale impeachment hearings this year the nation will be torn apart...the GOP and its supporters will be energized...and McCain will be the next president.

I am currently writing this from Canada, America's neighbor to the north, where there is an ideologically pure, uncompromising party of the left - the NDP - that has never, and will never, have a possibility of holding national power.

Do the Democrats want to be pure ideologues, and fight the uncompromising fight...or do they want to win and effect change?

I can hear the chants now...
**Bush lied, people died...Bush lied, people died**
...the chants are, btw, at McCain's first inaugural!

Tully, I many not always agree with you, but I must admit, I never heard "coupla tacos short of a combo platter" before and you very nearly ruined yet another perfectly good monitor. :-)

I put up a new post a little while ago of details on a radio show we'll be doing today. I love all the comments and if you'd like to join us and hash it out then, feel free to stop by our web chat or call in!

Marlowecan said:
"Runasim is right."

I'm going to have those words engraved in stone and keep them on my desk.
It's nice to have my moton for pragmatism seconded,

Tully and Jazz.
'Kucinich is nuts' and 'Bush lied" make nice book ends.
They leave the middle totally empty, though, and the middle is just aching for practical suggestions about how to deal with the presidencies to come.

Or do you prefer more back and forth exchanges of cutesy phrases to actually considerting presidential powers, regardless of which Party a current president might belong to?

runasim, as i mentioned in my post, I certainly feel that a number of actions during this administration are definitely fair grounds to begin a national dialogue on the limits of presidential power, the use of signing statements, congress's role in not just the budget, but in the declaration of and continuation of wars. Does this translate into making impeachment at this time either feasible or desirable? obviously this has brought out some heated opinions, but I just don't want to see us go there.

How about this idea?

Stop prentending this is all just political BS; like the Clinton thing was. This is about taking back our country from the very real threat of corporate fascist rule... From stopping the slide into tyranny. About making a proper future for us all instead of just lazilly going along with whatever they say without thinking. This is about becoming a real Democracy again; breaking the corruption and suppression of the mainstream media, taking the burdons and responsibilites of good government back, and preserving our freedom.

There has never been a clearer case for impeaching anyone in history. There has never been a greater need to remove from power a regime that would engulf the entire world in war, famine, and death. There has never been a more desperate time in our country for protecting Freedom. And there has never been such apathetic, cynical, and self-centered denial as now.

Hysterics are what happens when it is too late: It is not too late YET. Let your Congressperson know you support Impeachment. History will be on your side if you do.

It is imperative that we commit to the rule of law and the articles of our Constitution and that we have a congress and a senate that doesn't ignore our demands for our Democracy to be valid. Nancy and everyone else that is ignoring Dennis's courageous act to stand up to this Administration are party to the deceipt and corruption that is obviously consuming our country.

If you have no critical thinking skills, and cannot comprehend the evidence that Kucinich has put forth for the people to respond to the high crimes and misdemeanors of Bush and his associates and subordinates, blame that on the lack of resources to provide services (tax collections to provide for our needs) badly needed in our educational systems. Don't blame Kuchinich for the dumbing down of America. He is trying to wake us up so that we can reclaim our honor and punish crimes. If we put blacks in jail for stealing bikes and pencils (Guiliani) then we can put aristocrats in jail for genocide and murder and theft.

So if you cannot get it through your intellect, through no fault of your own, try this. Sometimes music helps crack the egg of unconsciousness!

http://www.earcandleproductions.com/Get_Out.mp3

Jazz,
I agree with you, as i have said in these comments.
However, this started with the question of timing, and it's going to end without seriously thinking about it.

It hasn't been the right time for the dicussions so far and now, with the elections, is certainly not the right time.
So, when?

If we wait until something explosive happens under some other presiden't's watch, any attempt at nonpartisan discussions would be doomed again.

I'm not pushing you for an answer. I'm just trying to make a point about timing. where this story began.

Does Congress (and Kucinich) have a higher obligation to win in November or to uphold the Constitution?

For me, the impeachment issue has always been about the FISA laws. The administration knew there was a law on the books explicitly forbidding them to do exactly what they wanted to do. Either they broke the law, or FISA is unconstitutional. If the adminsitration believed the latter, they should have challenged the law in court, not ignored it. If this wasn't good enough, they should have been challenging it while ignoring it. But they didn't. So they intentionally broke the law because they thought it best.

However, I don't think you'll ever get an impeachment out of this, both for political reasons and because the President can point to various legal advice he got saying it was okay to break the law. This does not excuse the President, of course. A mob boss who is told he can launder money in a certain way by his lawyer is still guilty if that method was in fact illegal as decided by a court. But you aren't ever going to get enough votes to convict someone when they can say they were following their (bad) lawyer's advice.

It has always seemed to me that Feingold got it right a couple years ago with his censure motion. It was wrong to break the law and we have it on record now for future Presidents that this was the wrong thing to do. Of course, that went nowhere as well, but that was a political decision.

In general, I would like to say that it should be far more easy for a person to lose their office in this nation. In South Korea yesterday, the PM and the entire Cabinet offered their resignations because of the unpopularity of an agreement about beef imports.

Beef imports.

We don't need to go so far, but I think we would be a little better if officials in the U.S. actually resigned when they screwed up every once in a while instead of "soldiering on." Take some responsibility some time for your actions. You don't have to go to jail, but you don't get to be President anymore.

Chris,
You can't deal with upholding the Constitution while everyone is busy ripping the country apart. There is a risk right now of saving the Constitution but having no one left to care about it. It's either get Bush or get the Democrats.

Saving the Constitution has to count for more than getting Bush.

That's why timing is important.
I'm thinking the beginning of the new presidnet's term. You?

I don't know of any judge who thinks and acts these ways when trying the little guy in criminal courts. I don't understand why you all think it is passe if the president is committing crimes. He is supposed to be a role model and the pinnacle of integrity. Instead we pardon his acts? Look the other way? Write it off like it means nothing?

That is insanity.

I dislike it when the verbal few think they know it all.

This land is governed by the rule of law. I demand that this administration answer to those 35 articles in some venue. Maybe criminal court once they walk out the door. Certainly in civil court. In fact they already are being held accountable in civil court, but mainstream media would have the people believe this behavior is normal and okay for the aristocracy. BULLSHIT. It is not okay for anyone to genocide and murder and plot to destroy a country. NO one. Especially not an American President!

Kucinich may be nuts, but he was nuts enough to be elected.
Bush is just sociopathic.

That's why timing is important.
I'm thinking the beginning of the new presidnet's term. You?

Too little, too late!!! It'll all go down the memory hole.

Kucinich may be nuts, but he was nuts enough to be elected.

Nuts enough to call a spade a spade.

I have changed my mind.

I think Bush should be impeached.

Secondly I think we should pass a new amendment to the constitution making it the law of the land that the president should be impeached in the last 6 months of his final term in office.

Then upon completion of the impeachment the sitting president is then Beheaded by the opposing party. Republicans/Democrats.....then the body is placed in the next shuttle and lifted off into the space station where it will remain until the space station crashes and burns up in our atmosphere.

Secondly all memebers of the siting presidents staff, members of his cabinet and any person ever appointed by the sitting president shall be thrown into prision for a term not less then 25 years after being waterboarded into confessing to their high crimes. Additionally any and every person who ever was known to have any type of contact with the president should also be likewise incarcerated and and to be fair and balanced any public figures who work for MSNBC or FOX news depending upon which president we are exectuting will also be hung for daring to show their biased support or spin for the sitting president.

I say we go back and Impeach McKinnley for lying about the Maine, Roosevelt for Peral Harbor, Truman for dropping the bomb, Kennedy for lying about the Bay of Pigs, Johnson for lying about the Gulf of Tonkin, Nixon again just for the hell of it, Carter for funding and creating the Taliban, etc.

We should Impeach each and every President that can be shown to have ever shaded the facts, only presented one side of the story, or outright lied to achieve their agenda, including going to War. Oh wait, that would be just about every single one (even Honest Abe).

This is a rare day. I actually find myself in agreement with Marlowecan.

This impeachment resolution is just a bad idea.

For one thing, of what practical benefit will it be? Bush is going to be out of office in seven months. Does anyone here really think there is a remote chance that congress is going to impeach Bush AND vote to remove him from office before January 20, 2009? Impeachment would merely be a symbolic gesture.

And as Marlow pointed out above, which you all really think is going to benefit from impeachment? Think about it. Bush's approval rating is hovering around 30%. It can't go much lower than it is now. Impeachment would only harden the resolve of the partisan Republicans who already support him and would probably earn him some sympathy points and steer Independents into the Republican fold. Democrats, on the other hand, wil (rightly or wrongly) be accused of partisanship, the same way Republicans were during Clinton's impeachment.

Lastly, Democrats have to decide what they really want to get done during the next 7 months. Impeaching Bush will do absolutely nothing to ending the war in Iraq or improving the economy. Impeaching Bush would be a pretty gutsy move. If the Democrats are going to show any amount of backbone, it ought to be towards doing that which they promised to do during the 2006 midterm elections...end the war in Iraq.

A political party that is willing to its sacrifice its political clout to impeach a president from the opposing party but is not willing to sacrifice its political clout end a war that they claim to oppose isn't a political party that can be taken seriously.

I admire Kucinich for his principled opposition to the war, but impeachment isn't going to solve anything.

Bunch of Lieberman wankers, you are.

Cowards. Lazy.

Or invested?

The administration knew there was a law on the books explicitly forbidding them to do exactly what they wanted to do. Either they broke the law, or FISA is unconstitutional.

Wrong once again. According to George Tenet the Democrats and Republicans on the hill were brought into and briefed on the wiretaps and gave him permission. Including allowing for the justice department to make rulings on it as well as bringing judges in to review what was going on.

Now if the justice department rules its constitutional and legal then the presdent forges forward. If it goes to the supreme court and they say no then he has not broken the law.......he has followed a law that was legal until struck down by the Supreme court.

If this was the case then everytime the supreme court struck down something legal as being illegal we could then go arrest a couple hundred million people for breaking the law.