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	<title>Comments on: Can Yet Another Old White Guy Win?</title>
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		<title>By: StockBoySF</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149464</link>
		<dc:creator>StockBoySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 04:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149464</guid>
		<description>I think Shaun&#039;s comments are about right, too.  While I see Jazz&#039;s point that Shaun&#039;s statement is not a good way to open the conversation, I think it&#039;s clear that the Republican Party is primarily a party of old white men, who hold most of the power and money in the US.  I didn&#039;t take Shaun&#039;s characterization to be racist- I took it to mean that the Republicans are out of touch and not representative of America.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Having said that, my brother, his wife and her family (and friends) are all anti-Obama.  All the anti-Obama chain e-mails bring up Obama&#039;s race.  In fact my sister-in-law (who is college educated and was a librarian at a public school, but is now a stay at home mom) is absolutely convinced that Obama has fooled white people into voting for him.  She&#039;s convinced that once Obama becomes president he will push through his true pro-black agenda.  Needless to say she also believes that Obama absolutely hates white people.  She&#039;s not KKK and if you asked her if she was racist she would deny it.  And she says that it is Obama who pushes a black agenda.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m beginning to wonder if my sister-in-law&#039;s idea of a racist is someone who lynches blacks.  Because she doesn&#039;t believe in lynching, then she&#039;s not racist.  I don&#039;t talk to my brother too much about it and he&#039;s not as vocal as his wife.  But I&#039;m still surprised at him because that&#039;s not how we were raised.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My Mom, to throw some perspective in here, is now an Obama supporter (after supporting McCain).  The reason she turned away from McCain is that after researching his positions she says that McCain scares her.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So yes, the GOP has lots of &quot;old white men&quot;, if not literally, then in substance.  And many folks will claim to vote for McCain for reasons other than race even though race plays a huge part of their decision (like my brother and sister-in-law and their friends).  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ve made a comment before that Obama needs to name some of his cabinet positions (not all) to comfort undecided moderates that he won&#039;t fill his administration with people like Wright.  Obama will choose people like Biden and Hagel (if not literally, then at least similar people) to fill his cabinet.  Of course I think there will also be some surprises in Obama&#039;s cabinet and so it will be interesting to how this administration fairs.  That&#039;s the best way to defuse the race issue.  The US has never had a black president before and a lot of people who may be willing to vote for Obama but not ready to commit may need the reassurance that he won&#039;t make the government a black government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Shaun&#39;s comments are about right, too.  While I see Jazz&#39;s point that Shaun&#39;s statement is not a good way to open the conversation, I think it&#39;s clear that the Republican Party is primarily a party of old white men, who hold most of the power and money in the US.  I didn&#39;t take Shaun&#39;s characterization to be racist- I took it to mean that the Republicans are out of touch and not representative of America.</p>
<p>Having said that, my brother, his wife and her family (and friends) are all anti-Obama.  All the anti-Obama chain e-mails bring up Obama&#39;s race.  In fact my sister-in-law (who is college educated and was a librarian at a public school, but is now a stay at home mom) is absolutely convinced that Obama has fooled white people into voting for him.  She&#39;s convinced that once Obama becomes president he will push through his true pro-black agenda.  Needless to say she also believes that Obama absolutely hates white people.  She&#39;s not KKK and if you asked her if she was racist she would deny it.  And she says that it is Obama who pushes a black agenda.  </p>
<p>I&#39;m beginning to wonder if my sister-in-law&#39;s idea of a racist is someone who lynches blacks.  Because she doesn&#39;t believe in lynching, then she&#39;s not racist.  I don&#39;t talk to my brother too much about it and he&#39;s not as vocal as his wife.  But I&#39;m still surprised at him because that&#39;s not how we were raised.  </p>
<p>My Mom, to throw some perspective in here, is now an Obama supporter (after supporting McCain).  The reason she turned away from McCain is that after researching his positions she says that McCain scares her.  </p>
<p>So yes, the GOP has lots of &#8220;old white men&#8221;, if not literally, then in substance.  And many folks will claim to vote for McCain for reasons other than race even though race plays a huge part of their decision (like my brother and sister-in-law and their friends).  </p>
<p>I&#39;ve made a comment before that Obama needs to name some of his cabinet positions (not all) to comfort undecided moderates that he won&#39;t fill his administration with people like Wright.  Obama will choose people like Biden and Hagel (if not literally, then at least similar people) to fill his cabinet.  Of course I think there will also be some surprises in Obama&#39;s cabinet and so it will be interesting to how this administration fairs.  That&#39;s the best way to defuse the race issue.  The US has never had a black president before and a lot of people who may be willing to vote for Obama but not ready to commit may need the reassurance that he won&#39;t make the government a black government.</p>
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		<title>By: Slamfu</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149463</link>
		<dc:creator>Slamfu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149463</guid>
		<description>Shaun&#039;s statement about race is pretty  dead on.  I have a great many of those voters in my family.   They certainly weren&#039;t going to be voting democratic in any event, but believe me, race is an issue.  And I&#039;m not talking uneducated backwater relatives either, I&#039;m talking college educated professionals from the midwest here.   If they are sucepttible to that kind of thinking I can only imagine what you&#039;ll get in states that still proudly fly confederate flags.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shaun&#39;s statement about race is pretty  dead on.  I have a great many of those voters in my family.   They certainly weren&#39;t going to be voting democratic in any event, but believe me, race is an issue.  And I&#39;m not talking uneducated backwater relatives either, I&#39;m talking college educated professionals from the midwest here.   If they are sucepttible to that kind of thinking I can only imagine what you&#39;ll get in states that still proudly fly confederate flags.</p>
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		<title>By: runasim</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149462</link>
		<dc:creator>runasim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149462</guid>
		<description>This argument just goes on and on.&lt;br&gt;Look How Far We&#039;ve Come vs Look How Far We&#039;ve Yet To Go.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s a false argument, because it&#039;s not either /or ,  It&#039;s both. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Stating that racism (or sexism) is still a problem does  not amount to harping on it,. Jazz. &lt;br&gt;It is what it is.  It&#039;s not stating the case that causes a problem.  It&#039;s  BOTH overstating or understating that  makes trouble.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Manchester paints a picture of how things should be:  one human race , choosing according to issues.  But hat has never been the case for significant portions of the population, and it&#039;s not the case now.Will pretending make it so?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As a matter of fact, reading about race relations during the post civil war period leads me to believe that every inch gained is often followed by a yard lost.  It&#039;s always been a very twisted road.&lt;br&gt;For example, lynchings became concentrated on lynching blacks, only after they had achieved significant progress economically, in education and politically.  &lt;br&gt;In that light,  Obama&#039;s very success may yet  turn out to be a provocation..&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Let&#039;s just see where this goes.  &lt;br&gt;Caution, yes, indeed/  Speech prohibition, no.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This argument just goes on and on.<br />Look How Far We&#39;ve Come vs Look How Far We&#39;ve Yet To Go.</p>
<p>It&#39;s a false argument, because it&#39;s not either /or ,  It&#39;s both. </p>
<p>Stating that racism (or sexism) is still a problem does  not amount to harping on it,. Jazz. <br />It is what it is.  It&#39;s not stating the case that causes a problem.  It&#39;s  BOTH overstating or understating that  makes trouble.</p>
<p>Manchester paints a picture of how things should be:  one human race , choosing according to issues.  But hat has never been the case for significant portions of the population, and it&#39;s not the case now.Will pretending make it so?</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, reading about race relations during the post civil war period leads me to believe that every inch gained is often followed by a yard lost.  It&#39;s always been a very twisted road.<br />For example, lynchings became concentrated on lynching blacks, only after they had achieved significant progress economically, in education and politically.  <br />In that light,  Obama&#39;s very success may yet  turn out to be a provocation..</p>
<p>Let&#39;s just see where this goes.  <br />Caution, yes, indeed/  Speech prohibition, no.</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149461</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149461</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Two in 10 white West Virginia voters said that race was an important factor in their vote, and more than 8 in 10 of them backed Mrs. Clinton, according to surveys of voters leaving the polls.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/us/politics/13cnd-democrats.html?emc=rss&amp;partner=rssnyt&quot;&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/us/politics/1...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Nuff said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Two in 10 white West Virginia voters said that race was an important factor in their vote, and more than 8 in 10 of them backed Mrs. Clinton, according to surveys of voters leaving the polls.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/us/politics/13cnd-democrats.html?emc=rss&#038;partner=rssnyt">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/us/politics/1&#8230;</a></p>
<p>Nuff said.</p>
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		<title>By: shaun</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149460</link>
		<dc:creator>shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149460</guid>
		<description>Manchester2:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Stating that the election will be decided based on religiosity is absurd.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;While I am sure you are an exception, the fact many Americans go to church a lot does not make them profoundly religious.  Profoundly religious people do not embrace doing to our enemies what Christ&#039;s enemies did to him, let alone locking up people and throwing away the key for so-called victimless crimes.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Sucking up to crackpots like Pat Robertson and the right wingnuts at Bob Jones University might help McCain firm up what is left of his base, but should be and will be viewed by mainstream Christians and Jews with great concern.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Finally, in a test of spiritual bona fides, Obama laps McCain and then some.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manchester2:</p>
<p>Stating that the election will be decided based on religiosity is absurd.</p>
<p>While I am sure you are an exception, the fact many Americans go to church a lot does not make them profoundly religious.  Profoundly religious people do not embrace doing to our enemies what Christ&#39;s enemies did to him, let alone locking up people and throwing away the key for so-called victimless crimes.</p>
<p>Sucking up to crackpots like Pat Robertson and the right wingnuts at Bob Jones University might help McCain firm up what is left of his base, but should be and will be viewed by mainstream Christians and Jews with great concern.</p>
<p>Finally, in a test of spiritual bona fides, Obama laps McCain and then some.</p>
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		<title>By: Manchester2</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149459</link>
		<dc:creator>Manchester2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 15:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149459</guid>
		<description>Jazz has raised some valid issues. Also note the headline: &quot;Can another old white guy win&quot;? In that sentence, you&#039;ve simultaneously raised skin color (not &quot;race&quot; -- there&#039;s only one race, the human race), as well as age. Unfortunately, those are both hot-button issues. I&#039;d like to think that voters can sort through ideas independently of irrelevant factors like how much pigment my skin has, or how many years I&#039;ve been on the planet. If that should happen, I have no doubt that McCain&#039;s ideas will triumph over Obama&#039;s, since the impulse of our nation (in every corner, and not just the South) is profoundly religious, and that impulse lines up more consistently with the the open-minded Republicanism of Senator McCain and not the lock-step liberalism of Senator Obama. And yes, Shaun, I wouldn&#039;t have written that sentence a week ago, but the more I think about it, this is where I&#039;ve ended up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jazz has raised some valid issues. Also note the headline: &#8220;Can another old white guy win&#8221;? In that sentence, you&#39;ve simultaneously raised skin color (not &#8220;race&#8221; &#8212; there&#39;s only one race, the human race), as well as age. Unfortunately, those are both hot-button issues. I&#39;d like to think that voters can sort through ideas independently of irrelevant factors like how much pigment my skin has, or how many years I&#39;ve been on the planet. If that should happen, I have no doubt that McCain&#39;s ideas will triumph over Obama&#39;s, since the impulse of our nation (in every corner, and not just the South) is profoundly religious, and that impulse lines up more consistently with the the open-minded Republicanism of Senator McCain and not the lock-step liberalism of Senator Obama. And yes, Shaun, I wouldn&#39;t have written that sentence a week ago, but the more I think about it, this is where I&#39;ve ended up.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazz</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149458</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149458</guid>
		<description>It was the &quot;many voters&quot; part, Shaun.  I don&#039;t feel I&#039;m putting words in your mouth, just making an observation about what you wrote. And frankly, the somewhat angry tone of your response surprises me.  I thought most of the piece was well thought out and crafted, but that one part stuck with me for the reasons I laid out above.  It&#039;s just not a good starting point to discuss the candidates when we assume that &quot;many&quot; of McCain&#039;s voters will do so because they don&#039;t want &#039;the black guy.&quot; I think we know by now that, while racism remains a very serious issue, ideological gaps are far wider and more prevalent in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was the &#8220;many voters&#8221; part, Shaun.  I don&#39;t feel I&#39;m putting words in your mouth, just making an observation about what you wrote. And frankly, the somewhat angry tone of your response surprises me.  I thought most of the piece was well thought out and crafted, but that one part stuck with me for the reasons I laid out above.  It&#39;s just not a good starting point to discuss the candidates when we assume that &#8220;many&#8221; of McCain&#39;s voters will do so because they don&#39;t want &#39;the black guy.&#8221; I think we know by now that, while racism remains a very serious issue, ideological gaps are far wider and more prevalent in this country.</p>
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		<title>By: shaun</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149457</link>
		<dc:creator>shaun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149457</guid>
		<description>Jazz:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Do not put words in my mouth by asserting that I am arguing that a vote against Obama is a vote for racism.  That will be true of some voters, but by no means the majority who go for McCain or Barr or whomever.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I did not write those words without a great deal of forethought.  I know you are not suggesting that we bloggers self censor when it comes to racial perceptions and outright racism, or are you?  Is there a satisfactory middle ground?  If there is, please elaborate.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Obama&#039;s race will be a HUGE if regretable aspect of the campaign and may influence the outcome.  We know that from a close reading of primary results.  Obama knows that and much of his early general election advertising will be biographical-type ads to try to better acquaint voters with who he is.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Recall also that I have written that I think we are one or two election cycles away from race, gender and sexual preference not really being players, but we have not yet reached that point.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;ll buy you a beer when we do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jazz:</p>
<p>Do not put words in my mouth by asserting that I am arguing that a vote against Obama is a vote for racism.  That will be true of some voters, but by no means the majority who go for McCain or Barr or whomever.</p>
<p>I did not write those words without a great deal of forethought.  I know you are not suggesting that we bloggers self censor when it comes to racial perceptions and outright racism, or are you?  Is there a satisfactory middle ground?  If there is, please elaborate.</p>
<p>Obama&#39;s race will be a HUGE if regretable aspect of the campaign and may influence the outcome.  We know that from a close reading of primary results.  Obama knows that and much of his early general election advertising will be biographical-type ads to try to better acquaint voters with who he is.</p>
<p>Recall also that I have written that I think we are one or two election cycles away from race, gender and sexual preference not really being players, but we have not yet reached that point.</p>
<p>I&#39;ll buy you a beer when we do.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazz</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/comment-page-1/#comment-149456</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 12:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/politics/republican-party/20264/can-yet-another-old-white-guy-win/#comment-149456</guid>
		<description>You know, Shaun, as much as I enjoy reading your work, there is one item here which I think is a mistake for Democratic supporters to keep harping on.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;&lt;i&gt;Many voters will prefer a virtual Bush third term to seeing a black man in the White House.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Statements like this dismay me a bit. In the interest of having open, productive discussions with voters, such things seem to hurt the debate more than help.  We should be on the lookout for true racism where ever it raises its ugly head, but there are other reasons people vote for more conservative candidates. When you open up the discussion by effectively saying, &quot;If you don&#039;t vote for Obama you&#039;re a racist!&quot; the other person has likely already tuned you out and closed their ears.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m not saying racism doesn&#039;t exist, but attitudes like that are, I think, unproductive for raising the level of debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, Shaun, as much as I enjoy reading your work, there is one item here which I think is a mistake for Democratic supporters to keep harping on.</p>
<p>&#8220;<i>Many voters will prefer a virtual Bush third term to seeing a black man in the White House.</i>&#8220;</p>
<p>Statements like this dismay me a bit. In the interest of having open, productive discussions with voters, such things seem to hurt the debate more than help.  We should be on the lookout for true racism where ever it raises its ugly head, but there are other reasons people vote for more conservative candidates. When you open up the discussion by effectively saying, &#8220;If you don&#39;t vote for Obama you&#39;re a racist!&#8221; the other person has likely already tuned you out and closed their ears.</p>
<p>I&#39;m not saying racism doesn&#39;t exist, but attitudes like that are, I think, unproductive for raising the level of debate.</p>
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