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Grand Theft, Part One: Sales Tax Comes to the Internet For Certain

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[SEE UPDATE AT END OF ARTICLE]

Sales Tax Comes to the Internet For Certain: It’s true.

Tonight I went online to send a birthday gift to a friend in New York. When I went to the ‘checkout’ screen, a big red-lettered notice came up saying as of June 1, 2008, sales tax will be applied to all purchases being shipped to New York, no matter where they originate from

This new NY state law of taxing internet purchases and trades… was initiated by Eliot Spitzer and signed into law some days ago by the acting Governor, Paterson …since Spitzer was rather literally spit out of office for being involved in a prostitution ring…after a career of legally pursuing prostitution rings to bring them to justice.

from Big Mouth Media

New York tax law is already confusing enough. Not only do the rates change unexpectedly, get completely dropped or even disappear entirely at certain “tax holidays” throughout the year, now New York is trying to get a piece of the online pie.

The new tax law for affiliates started with the former governor of New York, Eliot Spitzer who was recently forced to resign from his post after being linked to an high-priced prostitution ring. The law which requires that Amazon and other online retailers collect New York sales tax, did not disappear along with the resignation however, as the new governor Paterson could clearly see the revenue potential of taxing New York based affiliates.

This new law is a huge blow to big online retailers like Amazon.com who have already been fighting the issue with a lawsuit against the state of New York, which was filed in early May.

Other retailers have already started dropping their New York affiliates to avoid the issue altogether: Borders, the mammoth book and music retailer, has announced it will begin selling its own products online.

Complicating things further, the suit filed by Amazon begs the question – how important is location in the internet age? Locations across the globe are accessible by a simple Google search, creating the potential for consumers to buy anything from anywhere. Affiliate programs such as Amazon, Overstock and countless others have simplified the seeking out of merchandise for consumers. Why should a Seattle-based company like Amazon be required to collect New York taxes on behalf of a state the retail giant doesn’t even reside in?

As of today, Overstock.com has also sued the State of New York.

And… in the meantime, All I know, is that tonight is the first time I have EVER paid sales tax to another state for an online purchase… ordering from a company in Chicago an item no doubt made in China, ordering it from my office in the Rockies, and said item being sent to Manhattan, crossing at least five state lines in the process.

UPDATE I spoke to a legal eagle in NYC tonight, and it seems that up at the NY State capital, Albany, there are issues about apportionment of state monies, with various long serving government workers going without raises for years, (more than 5-8 years in some cases), while various parts of the state fall into disrepair for lack of funds.

At the state capital there are, apparently, various ideas about how to extract new revenues. Some say there is a ‘tax and spend’ mentality at the capital. Some attribute this to an overage of Democrats in the state congress. Some say legislators spend and spend, but not necessarily for ‘the right things’ such as infrastructures, wages and decent benefits.

Some charge incompetence at the Governor’s level. Other charge the entire legislature with not facing hard issues years ago and preparing, but rather feathering their own districts’ nests. Timeless issues of inattentive governance at best.

One of our commenters at TMV wonders how New York state will collect and gain oversight of companies not located in New York… I can only imagine NY would demand that a large company like Amazon allow a regular audit of their NY shipping records. But, I just don’t see Jeff Bezos taking that lying down.

For now, NY is only concerned with purchases from companies in other states in the US, theoretically meaning big internet corporations could do a huge work around… by warehousing and shipping from off-shore US, or overseas. Way to go NY, creating job loss in the US as warehousing moves overseas or drop ships from point of product’s manufacture overseas. No import taxes to US government then, either. Goodness.

We can see that the state governments, like the giants in the publishing industry too, who are now struggling financially from having overbred marginal books while keeping editorial labor costs high… didn’t know how to imagine, develop, exploit the jillion-armed Internet, didnt see the profound possibilities of e-commerce, didnt see the huge explosion of work and production not being limited by time-zones, consistent legal intrusions, didnt see that the history writers of the next century will mark the 1970s as the beginning of the shift, and that those who waited and waited to join, deteriorated or were plowed under. Buggy whip mentality in a time of Mar’s landing.

The dethroned Governor Spitzer and his replacement both said they had to have this law to ‘even the playing field’ with other states, and ‘those years that Amazon, for instance’ has made off with money that really really belonged to NY.

Those attitudes suggest that NY’s aggressive move could turn into a turf war between states… as one state or another declares sovereignty over sales tax demand… at point of origination rather than destination.

I looked for info on presidential candidates and this issue and found nothing yet… except some website commenters who thought this tax was Hillary’s fault, not seeming to know she is not in the state legislature. Not sure about conflict of interest between a state’s business and the feds’ business if/when they might brush against each other. That may have kept Senator Clinton from commenting, but not Senators Obama and McCain.

I am interested in what some of the most fierce defenders of ‘the free range internet’ will do to react to New York’s stance and its effect on small businesses. Kiplinger newsletter thinks other states will follow suit after NY. But, I imagine Half-Price.com and Amazon, B & N and Ebay and others large internet sales corporations will tie NY State up in law suits for a long, long time to come, costing NY a ton of money to defend itself.

No doubt some will call this, as it is said in the law, ‘unintended consequences’ of NY not pre-imagining the blowback of their own law.

Certainly regarding Amazon’s margins and discounts, NY’s 8+% sales tax on internet purchases wipes out a good deal of buyers’ reasons for buying on Amazon, et al. At the same time, NY’s thinking from what I’ve read of the bill’s sponsors, was that THEN people would BUY all their items locally in NY instead. Leaving the internet behind. Sort of like putting away your computer and going back to your abacus.

Short-sighted, it seems, a way to slow business and discourage enterprise that has reach.

The question perhaps ultimately will wash out something like this: Who is stronger willfully and legally,
an income-starved state
or
a highly competitive corporation?

Apparently, for now, out-of-state retailers will be responsible for collecting and delivering NY sales tax if their annual revenue from internet sales or affiliate referrals is over $10,000. That seems penny-ante and a blow to small businesses: 10 grand gross revenue isn’t even poverty-level annual income. The hours a small business owner would have to give to record, transfer, set up another bank account, audit themselves quarterly, et al, would make that 10k gross less and less by years’ end.

In the end, that wont likely hurt big corps like Amazon. Just the little people. Again.

_______
h/t StockBoySF

  • StockBoySF
    Get a PO Box in New Jersey if you order a lot online. :)

    But seriously, how is it enforced and who pays? What if I lived in NY and ordered some cheese from Switzerland? Does the retailer collect the tax and send to NY? Or does the recipient? If it's the recipient's responsibility, then why (as an example) should they pay tax on a gift a friend sent to them? If it's the retailer's responsibility to collect tax, then how would the retailer track all the different tax rates (and changes) in NY?

    Lastly, did Hillary have a position? (I know she's in the US Senate and doesn't vote on laws in the state legislature, but I'd still be interested to know if she had a position on it. And how she sees it as states' rights vis a vis other states. For instance NY has this law that taxed incoming goods. What if another state passed a law that taxed all purchases made from a retailer headquartered (or with operations) in that state? A great boon for Washington state, where Amazon is headquartered if Amazon had to collect taxes on all purchases (regardless of where they were shipped to) and remit to Washington state. The consumer would be double-taxed if they lived in NY (they would have to pay taxes to both NY and WA).

    Anyway I'd still like to get all the presidential candidates' thoughts on it....
  • archangel
    Dear StockBoySF, all worthy questions and re candidates: I find nothing yet. Please see update above and hat/tip to..... you!. Thank you SBSF.

    dr.e
  • mikkel
    There are some legal issues like you've mentioned, but I for one am all for taxing internet sales. The entire premise behind not taxing them was to allow them to grow and develop, but now several of the sites are the largest merchandisers in the world. It is inherently unfair to allow them to have an advantage over brick and mortar stores at this point.

    Moreover, I think that it is healthy to have job distribution roughly in line with consumption distribution. With these massive warehouses out in the middle of nowhere that can service the whole country, the only employment in the local areas are UPS drivers. So, not only is the state losing tax revenues, it's losing jobs. The mortgage crisis seems bad now, but there is a looming commercial real estate crisis that is coming to knock off all the medium-small sized banks. Since we're already so tapped out, I don't think it can be avoided, but it'll definitely be exacerbated the more that people move away from local shopping.

    Also, most items that are ordered over the internet tend to be relatively luxury/leisure. I was aghast when I was reading a thread with massive amounts of anti-tax vitriol when people were talking about a site that sells enthusiast computer parts. The people on the thread are buying luxury goods and think it's their right not to be taxed. "Tax and spend" is only a valid label when the government is actually revenue neutral, right now most states the Federal government are just "spend and debt" which gets a far lower outcry. I think taxes need to be raised across the board to cover up these deficits, even if it means that people get angry and there are cutbacks.

    That said, all the power to internet businesses to succeed once they do pay taxes. If they can utilize lower overheads and navigate the increases in energy then they deserve to get lots of business. You fret that it will turn people away from internet commerce, but the entire business model was designed to have better structural costs, not that it would have a permanent government enabled advantage. Although in all honesty $10K is nothing. I think it should be raised to $1 million or so.
  • archangel
    dear mikkel very thoughtful points. The parts I can respond to with some intelligence I hope ... I was just thinking in a slightly different direction about taxing in general amongst the bigger players. Knowing a bit more about Mr. Bezos and the folks at Google... well, you reminded me that Donald Trump, too, charges that the tribal groups, who are soverign nations, dont pay taxes on their brokered casinos. His point, at least initially seemed to be about the taxing inequity/iniquity across the board by the government re previous treaties. His jocular but serious remark was that he pays enough in taxes from his casino resorts to fund practically an entire state via tax revenues.

    I think your insight about raising the bar to 1M instead of 10k is brilliant, you must have an econ background... as that's, I think, an accurate assessment toward not burdening the small businesses with more and more taxes that may amount to penny-ante income for the government vs the cost of government to give oversight and processing--- all requiring hands on man hours. Also, 10k income businesses are probably run by people already working 60-80 hpw, and the paperwork to record sales taxes would be some more hours per month.

    As a small business owner myself, not having government demand one more ten-hours-a-week devoted to gov't paperwork would be time spent being productive in maintaining the business, that's for certain. Already here, we have head taxes, three different employee taxes, r.e. taxes, two sales taxes, and another property tax on contents annually, plus licenses, registrations and other small to medium matters of payout to city or state or county or feds.

    As a small business person (it's true, I'm undertall at 5' almost 4"...lol, but not that kind of 'small' ") who started from nothing, I sometimes think that if I had known the True Cost of Business when I started, I might not have started. All the regulations of bus. and taxes and tax codes only increase yearly, rarely hold steady. And tax code is still written in Martian. And the paperwork to document and gather and pay out isnt quite a full time job yet, but nearly so. Perhaps you've seen that in you own work too?

    I know some of the folks who work in the warehouses for Amazon, and Amazon does employ locally quite a few people. I often think mikkel, if I were just a sprout on my own for the first time looking at the wide world of possiblilties, what would we choose if we were choosing to be small business people, BUT, choose while knowing what we know now? We used to have very little even local info except what the proximate need was and how we might niche that and serve it.

    Now, the pathways seem many and humongous. Choice has never been greater. But also,there seem many more big guys eating the little guys not just locally or nationally nowadays, but from abroad too. Sometimes for small businesses that serve locally, it seems like planting a whole field in alfalfa and then the grasshoppers swarm just when the plants are becoming mature. A lot of work for nil. But like someone dedicated to the land, you just suck it up and go back to work and plant again... if you can get those middle banks you mentioned, to loan you for seed and gas.

    Can you tell I grew up in a rural outback?...lol. Not sure everyone knows anymore what grasshoppers do to crops. But if you've ever seen a hopper's mouth up close... man, what a set of mandibles. lol)

    Some days, again, re small business and all the paper required by various, I ask myself, how come I'm working for the gov'mint and not getting paid? lol

    and mikkel if you can give a link to a website re anti-tax discussion, just go ahead and put it in your comment. I am sure some readers will be interested.

    dr.e
  • StockBoySF
    dr.e Thanks!
  • StockBoySF
    I'm not taking a pro-tax or anti-tax position. Lots of questions need to be answered before various tax jurisdictions start enacting their own laws on internet sales.
  • archangel
    dear StockBoySF, I think NY supreme court prob, considering the lawsuits filed there this week, will be one determinant for certain. and maybe benchmark it for other states for a while. As mikkel pointed out, the e-commerce supposedly was to only enjoy certain lack of reins as startups. I would guess, however, that like most corporate entities that are huge, they write the rules no matter what they agreed to or entered into prior to establishing big footprint.

    I think you're wise to wait and see, hear all arguments pro and con. In the main, I will hate to see states tie up ecommerce with lawsuits with each other about who has more jurisdiction to tax... as you mentioned in your first comment, consumers could pay coming and going.

    I'll be watching with you.

    dr.e
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