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The Polygamist Children (Guest Voice)

This guest voice is by Martha Randolph Carr, whose latest book, A Place to Call Home, is about the reemergence of U.S. orphanages.

The Polygamist Children
by Martha Randolph Carr

The decision by a Texas court to remove in one grand sweep 400 children from a polygamist sect was the right thing to do even if it sent a chill down the spine of every parent in America.

It’s unnerving because all of us who have kids, myself included, know that some of the decisions we have made as parents haven’t turned out well. If we were held up to public scrutiny there would inevitably be some explaining to do. The difference is, we meant well and stayed within the law.

Our choices were based on the highest possible list of what we thought was best for our children at the time. Unfortunately, we brought our fears, misplaced aspirations and friends or family’s advice along with us. That can lead to some bone-headed decisions about putting little Jane into too many extra-curricular activities or fighting for our small Bobby to be on the track team even though he can’t run.

But we were still operating from a set of boundaries of what we would allow our children to do that were within distinct broad-based parameters. Giving permission to a teenager to get married and to a man who already has a wife and kids is never one of them. In fact, having sex as an adult with a minor is against the law in this country and is viewed as harmful to the child’s well-being. Marrying the teenager might make the sexual act legal in a very few states but doesn’t make it any less harmful. It only gives a wink-wink nature to the crime and says we’re supposed to look the other way.Tough luck, kid, it says, while the rest of us are expected to mind our own business.

That thought has led to an appellate court ruling that the children weren’t in immediate danger of physical harm and therefore it is necessary to hold separate hearings for each child. But, the law they’re citing was designed for communities that are made up of individual families who were brought together by mutually agreed upon circumstances. However, this is a sect, a group functioning as one, which has flaunted those laws, pulled out of the neighborhood-at-large and formed its’ own community with a conflicting set of rules.

This is a group of people who are working in concert to inflict harm on 400 children either by explicit act or implicit willingness to do nothing. Standing by and watching a crime take place is also punishable under the law. Watching it take place over and over again by the leaders in the community doesn’t lessen the affect but raises the damage to an entirely new level.

It is not right to form a community in which the elders make all the rules, which include requiring the children to marry them and have sexual relations while still a child. It is against the law and should be prosecuted. Allowing your child to do so means you failed in a spectacular way as a parent. The fact that you may not know any better or be caught in the same trap yourself may garner sympathy but doesn’t mean that you get to take another shot at parenting without a lot of therapy and classes.

Right now, there are four hundred children who are slowly coming to the realization that they have choices in life and one of them is to wait until they’re an adult before they choose just one mate. Four hundred children who will grow to be part of the community we all live in and will contribute in very meaningful ways, both good and bad, and go on to have children of their own. They deserve a chance to grow and learn in healthy surroundings where they are not only loved but protected from the predators amongst us.

  • runasim
    This ruling by the court is as ham fisted as some of the cases the UCLA has pursued and won. What is the purpose of 'the law' when it becomes completely divorced from its consequences?

    How can the necessary,, case by case, evidence be collected, when this cult is, by its very nature, prepared in every way to hide the eevidence? How can the members even be expected to provide credible information when they've been menatlly brianwashed to reist doing so by any means necessary?

    Would the court allow secret surveillance and recording of converstions? Of course not, because that would violate some other rights and rules.
    So, how is it to be done, dear court and defenders of rights?

    Outside of the cult, polygamy itself is a punishable crime, and so is underage sex. Outside of the cult, a boy is senenced to a long prison term for having consensual sex in his teens. For the cult, however, we knowingly condone an anything goes standard,
    In both cases, the law is allowed to float off into a stratosphere of abstraction, without so much as a hat tip to consequences in real life.
    What the court failed to note, is that thase are no ordinary people, and, therefore, these are not ordinary circumstances. We don't have the same rules in a condominimu, a senior citizens'' home, a hospital and a mental institution, because we recognize the different circumstnaces.
    This court failed to recognize the difference between a cult and a suburb of NYC,
  • AustinRoth
    runism -

    I have an even BETTER idea. Why bother with ANY of those pesky protections of the rights of the parents, and their children who were not in the 'at risk' group, who were members of the sect (which I fully agree is a deplorable group as a whole, and needs to have their illegal activities curtailed).

    Texas is a death penalty state, and has a long history of taking justice into our own hands. So, instead of removing the male children, and the female children under ten years of age, and having hearings, rather, let's remove every male of age (18 or older), take them out behind their church, and shoot them in the back of the head.

    Now THAT will protect the children.
  • runasim
    AR,
    ,Your argument is ludicrous, just as you intended it to be.

    I, on the other hand, try to think of rational solutions. Since the children are to be returned to their families, I would require some methodology for ascertaining just who the rightful families are. I'm sure the heartbroken fathers and mothers will be more than happy to provide DNA samples or verifiable documentation to show which children's welfare they are, and will continue to be, responsible for.

    With rights come responsibilities, and it's all about trying to balance the two. It's never a winner take all batttle, or civilized societies would not be possible.

    In this case, it isn't even a question of claiming rights, it's claiming more rights than the rest of society. Techbicallyk the men could be arrested just for marrying multiple wives. That they are not, already allows them to enjoy more rights than other people.

    In the cases, for example, where the women apply for welfare, the adults have had all the rights, while the state is shouldering responsibilities. I have no pronlem with helping those in need, but I would like the state to know just whose needs it is meeting.
    To use your absurdsit method of debate, the alternative' would be to just hand over children and welfare checks on demand, first come first served.

    I'll take your argument seriously, when you explain what would be an acceptable solution to this mess, Or, are you advocating that things should just go on as before,, with no regard for the children and the women involved?
  • AustinRoth
    I was responding in kind to my belief of your position.

    You want a 'rational' solution? Something very similar to what the Texas Supreme's hinted at:

    1. Return all male children, and all female children 10 - 12 years of age or younger, immediately

    2. For each of those families, if the state can provide evidence that those children are in some immediate and imminent risk of harm, remove them.

    3. The 13+ year old children are more problematic, and I am torn. In the end, I would support their immediate removal, a long as the 14 day hearing period to determine if they should be returned is adhered to

    4. Arrest every one of the 18 year old males that can be proven to be in a polygamist marriage

    5. Use the fact of being in a polygamist marriage against the mothers, in a hearing, to remove the male and 12 and younger female children

    6. Determine the status of the women in the polygamist relationships. If they were coerced and/or minors below the legal age of marital consent when the marriage occurred, annull the marriage, and return their children (if taken), s long as they promise to leave the church

    7. If they have voluntarily and of their own free will (and were of age) entered into and remained in the polygamist marriage, leave their children in foster care, and charge them as well

    How does that strike you?
  • AustinRoth
    Sorry - item three should have read 'the 13+ year old female children'
  • runasim
    AR-

    And what happened to rigths?
    Don't the parents of 13 year olds have rights?

    We're progresing, however, At least we're talking about real complications and possible solutions.
    It doesn't really count for much when it comes to follow up courtt hearings.

    Arrest polygamists? That has led to shot gun standoffs, and I suspect the aurthorities would be too scared to try it.

    I actually agree that the younger children should not have been taken en masse,.
    I just think that once they were, the opportunity arose to untangle some of he family relationships which the cult tries very hard to keep hidden.

    The first move was ill-considered, and it looks like the next moves will be likewise.
  • runasim
    AR-
    I'm just curious about your referece to getting hard evidence.
    How do you propose that could be possible to do, given the secretive and misleading nature of the cult members?
  • unclejoe40
    austinroth.

    these people forfeited their rights as parents the minute they allowed child abuse to occur unabated. all children within this cult are at risk, no matter what their age.

    austin roth doesnt know that they have also been taught that it is godly to lie to non believers

    austin roth would have you believe that a mother who sits back and watches her daughter be raped can still be a mother

    austin roth would have you believe that a child, who has been taught from a birth that this is their role in life can make a decision whether she wishes to be raped

    austin roth is a deluded human being
    is it ok for children not of the age to be raped to witness rape? to be preached to that it is godly to allow rape? that it is godly to allow a disgusting 50 year old pedophile to rape you or your sister??

    in my opinion, the men and the women of this cult should be jailed for as long as the law allows

    they are no better than the creep who hangs out in front of school yards
  • AustinRoth
    Fuck you, unclejoe40.

    My father sexually abused both my sisters, and physically abused me, my younger brother and my mother. I have lived with the horror - have you? Or are you just another asshole that likes to talk a story they have not lived, and judge that which they do not know?

    I have also seen first-hand a close family friend spend three years fighting false charges brought by a jealous grandparent to get their children back from Hawaii DPS. I watched how that destroyed their family - both the parents and the children.

    I have lived it one side of it, and helped friends through the other side of it. I believe fully in laws protecting children, without which my sisters and the rest my family would have suffered immensely more.

    I just don't believe that you throw away all rights at the suggestion of abuse, rather than the proof. Every family there was NOT involved in polygamy, and among those that did participate, not all of them were involved with underage girls.

    As I said above, removing the 13 year old girls is likely justified. And runi, I most certainly did not say anything that should have led you to say 'And what happened to rigths? Don't the parents of 13 year olds (girls) have rights?'

    Yes, but there I was conceding the point of 'risk of imminent danger' for them, due to the church practices, under which the laws DO provide for immediate removal of children. I also then stated that those same laws require a hearing within 14 days to determine if, in that particular instance, that specific child, already removed, should or should not be returned. That is how rights are preserved and children protected at the same time

    As for the 'hard evidence', the church itself recorded the marriages, and those records were taken, and could be used. I really don't have those answers, but it is the job of CPS to provide that. It is their utter failure to provide ANYTHING remotely like that that led to both the Texas Appellate and Supreme Courts to rule against them.

    Even in cases like this, as with all crimes, no matter how heinous, the burden is on the state to prove guilt. It is their job to do so. If they cannot, they did not do their jobs.

    If we accept otherwise, then anyone, anytime, can be jailed, have their children taken away, whatever, on simple allegations, rather than on evidence. Would you prefer we return to pre-Magna Carta law?
  • runasim
    AR-

    We're back to trying to do a balancing act.
    As neither of us will be in charge of making the decisions, I won't belabor this.

    Let me just fininsh by saying, that, although I agree with a lot of what you say, I don't agree that the same rules should apply in all circumstances. I don't agree that justice should be so blind as to be blind to the ocnsequences.

    When dealing with a brianwahed cult, the circumstances are far from ordinary, so the reaction also requires some thinking outside the box.
    i don't agree taht allowing for the special circumstnces of dealing with a cult amounts to endangering the rights of everyone.

    I do totally agree about the dangers of false accusation, though. That's, actually another example of why the one-size-fits-all approach can fail, and fail miserably.

    Somewhere, along the axis, we have to try to find the right . i.e., workable balance.
  • unclejoe40
    ar...i am sorry for the pain you experienced as a child...i am also sorry that despite this, you still see children as property

    for 10 years, i worked in the children's services system...watching as courts consistently ruled against the rights of children...despite horrible abuse which occured in the home...all due to some notion of "family reunification"

    i watched as natural parents were provided chance after chance to get it right...and the only thing that occured as a result of these bs laws was that children were left in the foster care system for way too long a period

    in the texas case, the idea that the entire community is not responsible is absurd

    forget polygamy...you wanna fuck around with multiple partners...go to it

    but they all knew....all of them...both knew and taught that girls who reached the age of puberty were to be "married"

    this cult has ritualized child abuse...so much so that to leave a child in this enviroment, is tantamount to allowing the child to be emotionally abused....

    is this a healthy enviroment for a child??? well according to the texas courts, i guess so, as long as they wont be raped tomorrow

    yet it is well known across the country that one of the worst dcfs in the country is that in texas (in no small part due to former gov bush and his moving many services over to non regulated faith based orgs) the fact that a court ruled that the children should be returned is not surprising...despite the mountain of evidence of ritualized child abuse (im sorry, you need to see documents? looking at 13-15 year olds walking around pregnant aint good enuf?)

    as for false accusations...especially within the court system, while i am sorry that you dealt with this first hand, the actual occurence is quite low....and is definitely not in evidence here (although it may have been a false report that finally got texas law enforcement to get off their butts and finally take action against these monsters)
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