Comments on: Re-Thinking the Benefit of the Doubt http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/ An Internet hub for moderates, centrists, and independents, with domestic and international news, analysis, original reporting, and popular features from the left, center, and right Mon, 23 Nov 2009 02:56:38 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: pabel http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131144 pabel Fri, 23 May 2008 16:52:08 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131144 Pacatrue -- I intended "Convention politics" to be essentially synonymous with "power politics" in the context of this post. Thanks for asking. Pacatrue — I intended “Convention politics” to be essentially synonymous with “power politics” in the context of this post. Thanks for asking.

]]> By: DLS http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131141 DLS Fri, 23 May 2008 01:40:35 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131141 "You simply don't have a huge passionate movement of centrists all coalescing around a moderate candidate. Instead, it's attrition from other less centrist candidates that allows the moderate to gain traction."<br><br>Yep -- as one book I've owned for many years says (it's about proportional representation), the typical posture presented by most strong candidates of either major party (as we see this year with Clinton's "centrist" or "moderate" posturing) is to position themselves as close to the center as they can (at least pretend to) be without losing their own party's "wing," because that way they lose as few moderates (or more often, swing voters, who aren't beholden to either party) as possible. They're trying to appeal to as many voters of all kinds as they can. (It then disappoints those such as the author of this book to which I refer, who is well to the left; he actually not only only calls Reagan and Thatcher "far right" but has put the Democratic Party or at least its mainstream or leadership to the _right_ of center[!] That illustrates how a mushy moderate, real or fake, disappoints those who have strong views and can be seen as lying more to one or the other party's wing.)<br><br>"attrition from other less centrist candidates that allows the moderate to gain traction"<br><br>Extremism or (in the case of the GOP rather than the Dems, who normally try to please all their many special-interest groups) appealing primarily only to one interest group (the GOP trying to appeal to the Religious Right, which doesn't define and doesn't constitute that much of all GOP-leaning voters) just doesn't do well. (The Dems still try once in a while with a more extreme candidate or one with a reputation for extremist positions or political association, and the result is disaster.) “You simply don't have a huge passionate movement of centrists all coalescing around a moderate candidate. Instead, it's attrition from other less centrist candidates that allows the moderate to gain traction.”

Yep — as one book I've owned for many years says (it's about proportional representation), the typical posture presented by most strong candidates of either major party (as we see this year with Clinton's “centrist” or “moderate” posturing) is to position themselves as close to the center as they can (at least pretend to) be without losing their own party's “wing,” because that way they lose as few moderates (or more often, swing voters, who aren't beholden to either party) as possible. They're trying to appeal to as many voters of all kinds as they can. (It then disappoints those such as the author of this book to which I refer, who is well to the left; he actually not only only calls Reagan and Thatcher “far right” but has put the Democratic Party or at least its mainstream or leadership to the _right_ of center[!] That illustrates how a mushy moderate, real or fake, disappoints those who have strong views and can be seen as lying more to one or the other party's wing.)

“attrition from other less centrist candidates that allows the moderate to gain traction”

Extremism or (in the case of the GOP rather than the Dems, who normally try to please all their many special-interest groups) appealing primarily only to one interest group (the GOP trying to appeal to the Religious Right, which doesn't define and doesn't constitute that much of all GOP-leaning voters) just doesn't do well. (The Dems still try once in a while with a more extreme candidate or one with a reputation for extremist positions or political association, and the result is disaster.)

]]> By: pacatrue http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131140 pacatrue Fri, 23 May 2008 01:05:33 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131140 Good post as always, Pete. But I have to also ask, "how could the Clintons be the masters of Convention politics" since the Convention hasn't had any important politics other than PR since at least 1980, long before they were important figures in Washington. Now, they certainly do know power politics very well, which is why she'd be an excellent leader in the Senate. Good post as always, Pete. But I have to also ask, “how could the Clintons be the masters of Convention politics” since the Convention hasn't had any important politics other than PR since at least 1980, long before they were important figures in Washington. Now, they certainly do know power politics very well, which is why she'd be an excellent leader in the Senate.

]]> By: CStanley http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131137 CStanley Thu, 22 May 2008 23:40:17 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131137 DLS- my opinion is that the 'vulture' phenomenon is pretty much how you end up with a more moderate candidate. You simply don't have a huge passionate movement of centrists all coalescing around a moderate candidate. Instead, it's attrition from other less centrist candidates that allows the moderate to gain traction.<br><br>Vultures aren't pretty and the comparison certainly isn't flattering to McCain, but vultures are a necessary part of the ecosystem too, lol. DLS- my opinion is that the 'vulture' phenomenon is pretty much how you end up with a more moderate candidate. You simply don't have a huge passionate movement of centrists all coalescing around a moderate candidate. Instead, it's attrition from other less centrist candidates that allows the moderate to gain traction.

Vultures aren't pretty and the comparison certainly isn't flattering to McCain, but vultures are a necessary part of the ecosystem too, lol.

]]> By: DLS http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131132 DLS Thu, 22 May 2008 22:55:03 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131132 The issue with McCain is that he is thriving not as a fox (Dr. E, take note) but more as a vulture, simply feeding off the remains of the "deaths" of his opponents, one after the other. And the Dems' fight weakens the Dems' campaigns against the Senator from Arizona. [insert picture of McCain smirking more than Bush ever has] The issue with McCain is that he is thriving not as a fox (Dr. E, take note) but more as a vulture, simply feeding off the remains of the “deaths” of his opponents, one after the other. And the Dems' fight weakens the Dems' campaigns against the Senator from Arizona. [insert picture of McCain smirking more than Bush ever has]

]]> By: saintixe56 http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131131 saintixe56 Thu, 22 May 2008 22:46:57 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131131 Sorry, my PC is also having a trantrum. The queen is having a fit, the Clintons consider the WH as theirown turf. Regardlss we are not a monarchy, that sad lot is ready to carve through our constitution and blaclmail the Dems to reign again . if THE dnc Caves in , I hope very much the AA and in fact any independant voter remembers this, for me I shall deregister myself after 32ys as a democrat , HRC may be top of nominee but I'll be damned if she getrs elected. Id needs be I shall join the Limbaughs, the Reps are bad but to also this shameful denial of democracy I am voting McCain <br>I SHALL NOT BE ALONE Sorry, my PC is also having a trantrum. The queen is having a fit, the Clintons consider the WH as theirown turf. Regardlss we are not a monarchy, that sad lot is ready to carve through our constitution and blaclmail the Dems to reign again . if THE dnc Caves in , I hope very much the AA and in fact any independant voter remembers this, for me I shall deregister myself after 32ys as a democrat , HRC may be top of nominee but I'll be damned if she getrs elected. Id needs be I shall join the Limbaughs, the Reps are bad but to also this shameful denial of democracy I am voting McCain
I SHALL NOT BE ALONE

]]> By: saintixe56 http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131122 saintixe56 Thu, 22 May 2008 22:41:38 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131122 We dont need to discuss McCain here as he is the other candidate a very legitimate and anything weak on our side makes him stronger, and to my knowledge he is not responsible for the Clinton Coup<br>What is clear is that Hillary is having a tantrum because the inevitavle nomination is stolen from her greedy fingers by this interloper Obama; how dares he to steal the crown from teh We dont need to discuss McCain here as he is the other candidate a very legitimate and anything weak on our side makes him stronger, and to my knowledge he is not responsible for the Clinton Coup
What is clear is that Hillary is having a tantrum because the inevitavle nomination is stolen from her greedy fingers by this interloper Obama; how dares he to steal the crown from teh

]]> By: saintixe56 http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131114 saintixe56 Thu, 22 May 2008 22:39:05 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131114 We dont need to dizscuss We dont need to dizscuss

]]> By: DLS http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-131113 DLS Thu, 22 May 2008 22:28:21 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-131113 The thing is, the fight _should_ go to the convention (not because it would make the convention finally merit Americans' attention, as it actually would be something meaningful this year, but because the race isn't over and the Florida and Michigan outlaws haven't faced their final disposition yet). Yet there is no guarantee that Clinton would win, at this point..<br><br>"McCain is increasingly likely to do what McCain does best: Victory by survival"<br><br>Absolutely. Victory by attrition of his opponents, Victory By Default, Victory By Charity. The thing is, the fight _should_ go to the convention (not because it would make the convention finally merit Americans' attention, as it actually would be something meaningful this year, but because the race isn't over and the Florida and Michigan outlaws haven't faced their final disposition yet). Yet there is no guarantee that Clinton would win, at this point..

“McCain is increasingly likely to do what McCain does best: Victory by survival”

Absolutely. Victory by attrition of his opponents, Victory By Default, Victory By Charity.

]]> By: Barack Obama » Re-Thinking the Benefit of the Doubt http://themoderatevoice.com/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/comment-page-1/#comment-112505 Barack Obama » Re-Thinking the Benefit of the Doubt Thu, 22 May 2008 22:03:41 +0000 http://themoderatevoice.com/general/19837/re-thinking-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/#comment-112505 [...] The Betrayal wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt Last week, I offered a parsed defense of Hillary Clinton — challenging Andrew Sullivan and others who suggest Clinton is motivated by “power-at-any-cost” to recognize that she might be just as driven (if not more so) by her legacy than by her quest for power. I went on to write that, regardless of what her most spiteful detractors might claim, I’d be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, if she handled her rightful exit from this nomination fight with dignity and grace. So much for tha [...] [...] The Betrayal wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerpt Last week, I offered a parsed defense of Hillary Clinton — challenging Andrew Sullivan and others who suggest Clinton is motivated by “power-at-any-cost” to recognize that she might be just as driven (if not more so) by her legacy than by her quest for power. I went on to write that, regardless of what her most spiteful detractors might claim, I’d be willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, if she handled her rightful exit from this nomination fight with dignity and grace. So much for tha [...]

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