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	<title>Comments on: Can Zionism Be Defended By Proxies?</title>
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		<title>By: runasim</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/comment-page-1/#comment-123959</link>
		<dc:creator>runasim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 10:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/americas-n-s/america/usa/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/#comment-123959</guid>
		<description>The safety of Jews in the US and other countries - hmmm- that&#039;s not an easy question.  Are they less safe than other minorities in hostile neigbhorhoods, or are they unsafe in a special way?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Is this, somehow, different than a white woman walking alone in a neighborhood with nearly no white residents? &lt;br&gt;A black salesman was killed on  a street in Brooklyn becasue he was assumed to be a prowler.&lt;br&gt;A Sikh was attacked and killed after 9/11 because he was mistaken for a Muslim.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Is this a Jewish problem or a minority status problem,?&lt;br&gt;I wouldn&#039;t know how to quantify anecdotal evidence, like this, and I don&#039;t know if  anyone has tried to do so., including information about  many monoriteis in many situations.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I do know that current events, internation events and historic animosities play a part.&lt;br&gt;I think perceptions also plays a part.  Once someone has been victimized, he is more likely to feel unsafe independent of a real threat to safety.  That kind of perception goes beyond personel;experience, it includes cultural history.  It&#039;s easy to dismiss &#039;playing the race card&#039;, but I think historical vctimization plays a strong role in the factually false but emotionally genuine feeling of victimization.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Returning to the subject of the safety of Jews, I think it&#039;s too hard to draw conclusions without more than anectodal evidence and/or perceptions to draw on.  &lt;br&gt;Interestingly, after 9/11, a lot of US Muslims would understand  why you worry, , though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The safety of Jews in the US and other countries &#8211; hmmm- that&#39;s not an easy question.  Are they less safe than other minorities in hostile neigbhorhoods, or are they unsafe in a special way?</p>
<p>Is this, somehow, different than a white woman walking alone in a neighborhood with nearly no white residents? <br />A black salesman was killed on  a street in Brooklyn becasue he was assumed to be a prowler.<br />A Sikh was attacked and killed after 9/11 because he was mistaken for a Muslim.</p>
<p>Is this a Jewish problem or a minority status problem,?<br />I wouldn&#39;t know how to quantify anecdotal evidence, like this, and I don&#39;t know if  anyone has tried to do so., including information about  many monoriteis in many situations.  </p>
<p>I do know that current events, internation events and historic animosities play a part.<br />I think perceptions also plays a part.  Once someone has been victimized, he is more likely to feel unsafe independent of a real threat to safety.  That kind of perception goes beyond personel;experience, it includes cultural history.  It&#39;s easy to dismiss &#39;playing the race card&#39;, but I think historical vctimization plays a strong role in the factually false but emotionally genuine feeling of victimization.  </p>
<p>Returning to the subject of the safety of Jews, I think it&#39;s too hard to draw conclusions without more than anectodal evidence and/or perceptions to draw on.  <br />Interestingly, after 9/11, a lot of US Muslims would understand  why you worry, , though.</p>
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		<title>By: schraubd</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/comment-page-1/#comment-123958</link>
		<dc:creator>schraubd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 06:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/americas-n-s/america/usa/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/#comment-123958</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree that there is plenty of discussion on Israel&#039;s need to be secure as against external threats. But that wasn&#039;t my point -- it would be tautological to defend what I call Zionism (establishing Israel was good, and it should hang around) on the grounds that Israel needs to be secure (though I think that&#039;s an &lt;i&gt;implication&lt;/i&gt; of being a Zionist, it&#039;s not a &lt;i&gt;cause&lt;/i&gt;). My point was that Zionism is important because Jews need to be secure as against you: Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Africans, Arabs, Asians -- wherever Jews are present where we are dependent on the kindness and goodwill of others -- because that goodwill has proven to be transient and unreliable.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m obviously worried about the Jews in Israel being safe when many Arab countries seem to want their destruction. But I&#039;m also worried about Jews in America, or France, or the UK, or Iran, or China, or Ethiopia, or Tunisia, or Argentina being safe when surrounding by peoples who have, all too often, also seemed to want (or be indifferent to) our destruction. That&#039;s the part of the discourse that&#039;s missing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t disagree that there is plenty of discussion on Israel&#39;s need to be secure as against external threats. But that wasn&#39;t my point &#8212; it would be tautological to defend what I call Zionism (establishing Israel was good, and it should hang around) on the grounds that Israel needs to be secure (though I think that&#39;s an <i>implication</i> of being a Zionist, it&#39;s not a <i>cause</i>). My point was that Zionism is important because Jews need to be secure as against you: Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Africans, Arabs, Asians &#8212; wherever Jews are present where we are dependent on the kindness and goodwill of others &#8212; because that goodwill has proven to be transient and unreliable.</p>
<p>I&#39;m obviously worried about the Jews in Israel being safe when many Arab countries seem to want their destruction. But I&#39;m also worried about Jews in America, or France, or the UK, or Iran, or China, or Ethiopia, or Tunisia, or Argentina being safe when surrounding by peoples who have, all too often, also seemed to want (or be indifferent to) our destruction. That&#39;s the part of the discourse that&#39;s missing.</p>
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		<title>By: runasim</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/comment-page-1/#comment-123952</link>
		<dc:creator>runasim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 04:18:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/americas-n-s/america/usa/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/#comment-123952</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s kind of odd that a claim would be made that Israel&#039;s need for a safe and secure homeland is being ignored.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is no other country and  its needs that is  discussed more in the US, and it&#039;s discused on a level pretty close to that of discussing the safety and security of the US itself.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m old enough to have been around when Israel was born (although i was too young to understand the significance) , and I&#039;ve followed its life attentively ever since.  By the twist of fate, Jews and Jewish societies have always been a part of my life, so I feel a little like an honorary Jew at times.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Consequently, I&#039;m also aware  of the divisions within Israeli society concerning what actions in the name of Zionism are wise and which are unwise; which lead to long term securityy and which lead to increased peril in the long run.   I think those who feel passionatley about it, often  mistake a difference of opinion regarding this with ignoring,or even opposing,, Zionism itself..&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It parallels the arguments we are having in the US about what constitutes  patriotism  and the role of criticism as part of patriotism.   These differences become more shrill and accusatory during times of stress, and Israel has had few moments without enormous stress.  The US, has had its own anxieties to deal with, re the war in Iraq, rapid changes in the economy, and etc.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s most important to keep a perspective when it&#039;s the hardest to do so, I find.  &lt;br&gt;I suggest, then, that &#039;ignored&#039; is not the proper way to describe eiither Israel or Zionism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#39;s kind of odd that a claim would be made that Israel&#39;s need for a safe and secure homeland is being ignored.</p>
<p>There is no other country and  its needs that is  discussed more in the US, and it&#39;s discused on a level pretty close to that of discussing the safety and security of the US itself.</p>
<p>I&#39;m old enough to have been around when Israel was born (although i was too young to understand the significance) , and I&#39;ve followed its life attentively ever since.  By the twist of fate, Jews and Jewish societies have always been a part of my life, so I feel a little like an honorary Jew at times.  </p>
<p>Consequently, I&#39;m also aware  of the divisions within Israeli society concerning what actions in the name of Zionism are wise and which are unwise; which lead to long term securityy and which lead to increased peril in the long run.   I think those who feel passionatley about it, often  mistake a difference of opinion regarding this with ignoring,or even opposing,, Zionism itself..</p>
<p>It parallels the arguments we are having in the US about what constitutes  patriotism  and the role of criticism as part of patriotism.   These differences become more shrill and accusatory during times of stress, and Israel has had few moments without enormous stress.  The US, has had its own anxieties to deal with, re the war in Iraq, rapid changes in the economy, and etc.  </p>
<p>It&#39;s most important to keep a perspective when it&#39;s the hardest to do so, I find.  <br />I suggest, then, that &#39;ignored&#39; is not the proper way to describe eiither Israel or Zionism.</p>
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		<title>By: Neocon</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/comment-page-1/#comment-123948</link>
		<dc:creator>Neocon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 00:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/places/americas-n-s/america/usa/19806/can-zionism-be-defended-by-proxies/#comment-123948</guid>
		<description>Actually I&#039;m not sure I totally agree with you when you say that people do not understand the Jewish need to feel secure.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think above all else that a nations goal is to provide security and a safe refuge for its citizens.  I think that western civilizations understand that without having to define it daily.  Because it is a &quot;given&quot; that security is a must for Israel citizens I believe that it is just something that is not discussed but rather is the entire focus of the Jewish Zionism problem.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I say problem because it is precisely this need to feel safe and secure that has driven Israel to do what they have done over the decades for this one over riding aspect.  Jewish safety.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So while I think your conclusion is correct in that we as proxy defenders of Israel do so without focusing on the &quot;Main or Prime&quot; reason of Zionism I think it is because we as citizens of a safe and secure America choose to look past that to other things because this aspect of Zionism is a &quot;Given.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Not being Jewish I could be wrong but I know for me I have always believed first and foremost that Israels right to exist and right to defend herself is a given and It is this &quot;RIGHT&quot; that drives my proxy defense of her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I&#39;m not sure I totally agree with you when you say that people do not understand the Jewish need to feel secure.</p>
<p>I think above all else that a nations goal is to provide security and a safe refuge for its citizens.  I think that western civilizations understand that without having to define it daily.  Because it is a &#8220;given&#8221; that security is a must for Israel citizens I believe that it is just something that is not discussed but rather is the entire focus of the Jewish Zionism problem.</p>
<p>I say problem because it is precisely this need to feel safe and secure that has driven Israel to do what they have done over the decades for this one over riding aspect.  Jewish safety.</p>
<p>So while I think your conclusion is correct in that we as proxy defenders of Israel do so without focusing on the &#8220;Main or Prime&#8221; reason of Zionism I think it is because we as citizens of a safe and secure America choose to look past that to other things because this aspect of Zionism is a &#8220;Given.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not being Jewish I could be wrong but I know for me I have always believed first and foremost that Israels right to exist and right to defend herself is a given and It is this &#8220;RIGHT&#8221; that drives my proxy defense of her.</p>
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