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Obama’s, “Appeasement,” and Diplomacy

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Now that a few days has passed over the uproar of President Bush’s remarks where he implicitly slammed Barak Obama on negotiating with some of America’s less than savory neighbors, I think it’s time for me to weigh in.

Michael Tomansky of the Guardian has a good piece up on how Obama has been able to blunt criticism from the Republicans on foreign policy. The gist is that Obama is going to present a very different vision of American foreign policy that is centered on diplomacy and he is not ashamed of presenting such a view.

While it shows very smart politics for Obama to use the opportunity to blast the foreign policy blunders of the Bush Administration and tie John McCain to it (nevermind that McCain’s foreign policy would be different from Bush’s), I do wonder if Obama’s vision is a wise one.

I should state upfront- I am no fan of the Bush foreign policy. I think this Administration was wrong in going to war with Iraq and once in Iraq it was too stupid to deal with the responsibilities of occupying a nation of 22 million people. It has angered long standing friends. Afghanistan is becoming a mess if it already isn’t a mess. We need a president who will try to repair some of the damage done by the President and his aides.

That said, I fear that Senator Obama’s emphasis on diplomacy could be as bad as President Bush’s emphasis on warmaking.


Conservatives and Liberals tend to see the world through two different narratives. Both narratives are important- for the other party- to understand.

Liberals tend to see foreign policy through the eyes of Vietnam. The story is one of an arrogant superpower trying to tell another nation far away how it should live and the results are disastrous. For liberals, it makes more sense to talk to other nations and peoples and keep American arrogance in check.

For Conservatives, the narrative is Munich. When President Bush was talking about Nazi Germany in front of the Kenesset, he was referring to the attempts to use diplomacy to diffuse Hitler. Of course, it didn’t work. For conservatves, it makes sense to be suspcious of diplomacy because it has been used for ill in the past.

Both of these stories are important lessons, but they make more sense of the opposite ideology than it does for the ones that hold the stories near and dear. One would hope that conservatives would learn from Vietnam that when an arrogant power decides to not listen to friends and go to war for paper thin reasons, they are going to set themselves up for a fall.

Liberals need to learn that talking with a supposed enemy doesn’t always lead to peace. Sweet words of peace can be manipulated for more darker ends.

And that is what is bothering me with Obama’s approach. It’s talk without any preconditions and seemingly with no leverage. This is what Obama has to say about diplomacy with Iran:

Diplomacy: Obama is the only major candidate who supports tough, direct presidential diplomacy with Iran without preconditions. Now is the time to pressure Iran directly to change their troubling behavior. Obama would offer the Iranian regime a choice. If Iran abandons its nuclear program and support for terrorism, we will offer incentives like membership in the World Trade Organization, economic investments, and a move toward normal diplomatic relations. If Iran continues its troubling behavior, we will step up our economic pressure and political isolation. Seeking this kind of comprehensive settlement with Iran is our best way to make progress.

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Here are my concerns: Does without preconditions mean no preliminary talks, to get some of the thornier issues out of the way? Would we see the image of a President Obama meeting with President Amajinedhad with no prep ahead of time? What happens if Iran doesn’t listen?

Please understand me, I am not saying we should invade Iran. What I am saying is this diplomacy backed up with anything should negotiations fail?

There was a lot of shock when Hilary Clinton said Iran would be obliterated if it tried anything against Israel. For me, there was a sense that she “got it.” It’s not that I expect Clinton would immediately go to war against Iran, but her words were a warning to Iran that she could use the “stick” of military action if it were warranted. With Obama, that doesn’t seem in the cards.

I should state this is not saying Obama is an appeaser. I don’t see him doing something as foolish as Neville Chamberlain. I just don’t think diplomacy is the end all and be all. Sometimes it can work and by all means, it should be used before going to war. I also think war should only be used as a last resort and when there is a solid chance of success with an exit strategy.

That said, as another blogger said recently, we don’t know what will happen when and if Obama becomes President. It is easy to say one thing on the campaign trail and another when you are sitting in the Oval Office and having to deal with protecting 300 million people. Hawks have made peace and doves have made war. It will be interesting to see where Obama ends up if he becomes Commander in Chief.

  • runasim
    "Liberals need to learn that talking with a supposed enemy doesn’t always lead to peace"
    --------------------------------------------------

    As it's unimaginable that any liberal, or anyone at all, is naive enought to believe that, I can only assume that this is a rhetorical statement , inserted for dramatic effect.
    Obama himself has repeatedly said that all options (and I think we all know what those options are) should be on the table, so I can't even fathom where such a notion came from.

    Obama would have to speak for himself regarding exactly how he plans to implement his ideas regarding Iran. The damage there has already been done, and Obama (or whoever will be the next president) is not going to have the ooportnity to srart fresh. He/she will be entereing in the middle of a fight, not the beginning. . All he can do is signal Iran that he is diffrent, from Bush and he can only do so by emphasizing the difference.

    It should be obvious by now that threats don't intimidate adversaries like Iran. On the contrary, it makes them more stubborn and determined. It's a matter of pride, for one thing, and the US has been badly underestimating the role of pridie when dealing with other countries and cultures.

    The best way to encourage outright war is to keep talking about it. Far from 'getting it', I think Clinton fell in line with Bush, mistaking tought talk for actual power. The whole world knows we coulfd obliterate Iran, including Iran. Bragging about it only gives Iran more of an alibi for developing what they would call a defense.

    No one I can think of is opposed to being tough, and being ready to act tough. This argument is about how to act before you have to prove just how tough you are.

    PS To describe diplomacy as 'sweet talk' is just too ridiculous to even argue about here..
  • EEllis
    "As it's unimaginable that any liberal, or anyone at all, is naive enought to believe that, I can only assume that this is a rhetorical statement , inserted for dramatic effect."

    And I think that it is unimaginable that you can belive what you just wrote. Just goes to show doesn't it.
  • Neocon
    Obama himself has repeatedly said that all options (and I think we all know what those options are) should be on the table, so I can't even fathom where such a notion came from.

    The following are ALL from Israeli Papers during the course of the last 6 months.

    Obama has repeatedly stated that he wants to engage in talks with an Iranian regime that incessantly talks of vaporizing Israel and is hell bent on developing nuclear weapons to accomplish this goal. When Hillary Clinton recently threatened to obliterate Iran if it attacked Israel, Obama actually scolded her for "saber rattling."

    So I think this shows that All options is just a metaphor to appease those who think he might be soft.

    Additionally:

    A group of experts collected by the Israeli liberal newspaper Haaretz deemed him to be the candidate likely to be least supportive of Israel. He is the candidate most favored by the Arab-American community. He is endorsed by Hamas.

    This is so important a deal that on Barak Obama's own website they posted this:

    Obama's camp is well-aware that the Israeli newspaper Haaretz -- in a recurring feature ranking the 2008 U.S. presidential candidates or people who may run on how good they are for Israel -- puts him last on its list.

    In response to this the Obama Campaign has established a blogg in Israel to try and pull the wool over the eyes of the concerned Jewish nation as they have been able to do here in America.

    And we have this:

    Kurtzer, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel, has long been recognized by Israeli leaders, including prime ministers, as biased against Israel and is notorious for urging extreme concessions from the Jewish state. He was appointed as a primary Obama adviser on the Middle East earlier this year.

    And my favorite one is this in which Barak Obama is speaking of how he is perceived in the Middle East.

    It's conceivable that there are those in the Arab world who say to themselves, 'This is a guy who spent some time in the Muslim world, has a middle name of Hussein and appears more worldly and has called for talks with people, and so he's not going to be engaging in the same sort of cowboy diplomacy as George Bush,'" Obama said in an interview with The Atlantic.

    "That's a perfectly legitimate perception as long as they're not confused about my unyielding support for Israel's security," Obama said.

    Notice how he plays up his perceived Muslim ties when it suits him and screams foul when its used against him?

    Moreover, Obama has stated that nobody is suffering more than the Palestinians. Obama is so anti-Israel that a high level Hamas adviser recently said that Hamas supports Obama's foreign policy vision.

    I realize no ones listening. Certainly at this blog. But my mission continues. Facts.
  • CStanley
    Since Obama's staff and surrogates are attempting to do damage control regarding his statements on negotiating without precondition, I can only assume one of two things must be true: either Obama answered that early debate question without having adequately considered the appropriate response, and now knows that he can't be seen as flipflopping so he's sticking by it even as everyone else around him changes the story- or, his debate response and website position have been crafted to appeal to the far left netroots and he actually has no intention of fulfilling that pledge (he'll find some way, of course, to fudge it and appear as though he is meeting without precondition when really there are preconditions, or he'll find some excuse for why a meeting isn't possible after all.)

    In both cases, of course, that's a good thing, if he doesn't actually intend to follow through on a disastrous foreign policy that would make Jimmy Carter look like a master of diplomacy. I think there's still a very small chance that he really does mean what he says, but I think that's very remote (though it still will worry me if he's elected.)

    Anyway- great piece, Dennis, and I'm glad someone is willing to ask the questions instead of just saying "Bush's approach has been a disaster so we should do the opposite" (The George Costanza Doctrine) or "We should give Obama a chance" (which apparently means we need to all turn our brains off and stop attempting to question whether or not he has good new ideas.)

    Just to add a bit more to the issues you raised about the faults of both extreme approaches; diplomacy without leverage often leads to stall tactics being employed. That was one of the concerns pre-Iraq invasion, that if we were to have 'let the inspectors do their job', then Saddam would do what he had always done, and used the time to hide any weapons or weapons programs that he may have had, or as we later learned that he didn't have stockpiles he still would have dodged the bullet in that round of inspections and then gone back to planning his next move. It's an endless game for some of those players- and the current situation shows that Iran is probably playing the same game in continuing to enrich uranium while it figures out how to restart a weaponization program under the radar.

    Propaganda is also a big downside to negotiations without leverage; by scheduling a summit level meeting, each country is saying it is willing to negotiate. If we're willing to 'sit down and talk' with Iran, the implication there is that we are willing to give some things in order to get other assurances- but if we're not willing to give any of the things that Iran would want us to give, then the meeting will fail to produce any results and the propaganda win goes to Iran ("See, we were willing to discuss these things but the US will not negotiate on a single thing that we asked for!") If that's going to be the outcome, then agreeing to the meeting in the first place leads to a greater PR disaster than not agreeing to the meeting until those preconditions are met. This is particularly true when some of the things we require of Iran involve their support of terrorist acts, killing of our troops, and threatening the existence of one of our allies. Having a meeting for the sake of having a meeting is obviously going to be seen as doing it from a state of weakness to negotiate for them to stop doing those things- which gives legitimacy not only to the govt that supports terrorism, but also to the terrorist acts themselves.

    Now, those are weaknesses of the extreme pacifist view of negotiating no matter what. On the other extreme, blustering is certainly not helpful and constant brinkmanship (particularly when everyone knows you probably are NOT going to follow through because your military is stretched too thin) quickly takes away the leverage that you have.

    Clearly the right approach is somewhere in the middle, with 'talking' being effective in some circumstances but not others. It's so important to determine what those criteria should be, and how we create leverage- and to examine each candidate to see if he/she understands this and has an idea of how to do it. Since so much is at stake, wouldn't it be far better if we, the voters, could discuss those things without everyone taking it personally when one approach or the other is being criticized? How do we get past the "How dare you call me an appeaser!" or "I am not a warmonger!" nonsense?
  • WagnerSch
    ...and Conservatives need to learn that going to war with your supposed enemies NEVER leads to peace.

    If our current bellicose stance hasn't worked (and it hasn't), America would be insane not to try a different approach.
  • CStanley
    If our current bellicose stance hasn't worked (and it hasn't), America would be insane not to try a different approach.

    But the point is, WHAT OTHER APPROACH? Why can't anyone describe how talks with Iran could possibly be constructive, and whether or not we have any leverage to negotiate with them? If we don't currently have leverage, how could we get some? And if we don't, then how is it not a net negative to hold negotiations that are obviously only going to result in a PR victory for Iran?

    If the answer is, as Obama's surrogates are saying, that we get leverage first through "preparation" before holding the high level talks, then I'd like to know how that is different from the Bush administration's approach other than the substitution of the word "preparation" for "preconditions"?
  • What exactly is the downside to negotiations? Even without preconditions and preparations? Please explain.

    And let me tell you the real significance of the rightwing's use of the Munich Agreement. It means that rightwing sees war between the United States and Iran as inevitable. Does anyone seriously think the Munich Agreement had any serious effect on WW2 one way or the other? Hitler was going to invade Poland, and he was going to take all of Czechoslovakia. War was inevitable.
  • runasim
    Speaking for myself, not Obama:
    Judging from the reaction, most of the antipathy is based on 'support for Israel' , and an inability to grasp the notion that support does not directly translate into supporit in only one way: agree to everything Iaraeli political hawks say and do.
    It's a twin to the pseufo definition of US patriotism to mean agreeing to everything the sitting government says and does.

    There are ways to be patriotic and ways to supporit Iseael that actually endanger the US and Israel, respectively. Just like we would be better off today if more people had been 'unpatriotic' enough to question and debate the wisdom of invading Iraq, Israel would be better off if we questioned and debated more what, support for Israel should actually consist of.

    Supporitng Israel in the emotional, rather than analytical, way that we have done so far, has led to a situation now, where we are less able to intercede on Israel's behalf than ever before and we have been cornered into a situation where we have to contemplate nuclear confrontations.

    One current result is that our hands are tied in Lebanon. If we made the slightest move to support the Lebanese government, the immediate effect would be to immediatley embolden Hezbollah. even further. How does that support Israel?

    Being in the corner into which we have painted ourselves weakens our ability to intercede on Israel's behalf all across the board., and that's not good for Israel; it's very dangerous for Israel.

    Getting back to Obama, my evaluating him does not depend on these ideologically co-opted definitons of support for Israel and patriotism. Rather I try to gauge what would best serve US interests and Israel's interests. I try to think long term, not just in the immediate context of word play used as attack weapons.
  • CStanley
    Rather I try to gauge what would best serve US interests and Israel's interests. What do you think that would be though? That's what I haven't heard anyone describe- it's all about criticism of our current policy (sometimes legitimate criticism, and sometimes a straw man version which pretends that we currently "refuse to talk to our enemies".

    What specifically can we do to support Israel that isn't an 'emotional' reaction?

    Is it necessary, in your opinion, to apply as much leverage as possible to preventing Iran from gaining nuclear weaponry, or are you one who believes that Iran won't do that anyway (wants only nuclear technology for energy use) or that it wants weapons but will only use them for political power in the region and to feel more secure in its own defense, rather than having any aim toward the destruction of Israel?

    Those are the sort of questions that I wish Obama and his supporters would answer.
  • What specifically can we do to support Israel that isn't an 'emotional' reaction?

    Show our support for talks with Hamas (which Israel is already doing *gasp*).

    Ask them to halt the new settlements and seriously consider rolling back existing ones.

    Reexamine their policy toward the West Bank which is looking more and more like a set of Apartheid era bantustans everyday.

    Those are just a few :-D
  • runasim
    Regarding the difference between preconditions and preparation, again points to what is stupid (IMO, of course) about how issues are debated in US politics.
    That the question is even raised reflects an ongoing and completely erroneous way ''talking' and 'negotiations' are represented by one sector of the public. Neither entails capitulation, any more than saying 'good morning' to a neighbor means you'll be handing over your house to him in the afternoon.

    Contact in some form, however, is necessary in order to use the art of persuasion. A good example is the Cuban missile crises, when JFK continued the art of persuasion, by written word, all during and up to the final resolution. of the crisis. Had he not 'talked' to Kruschev by letter, we might not be around to argue the finer points of foreign relations.

    Preparation is a must, a given, when adversaries communicate in any way.or at any level.
    Preconditions are a much more risky tool. We set preconditions to talking to Iran, and Iran said 'no, thanks'. Again, going back to the Cuban missile crises, had JFk set preconditions to corresponding with the USSR, applying persuasion would not be possible, and KA-BOOM. Is anyone unhappy that a nuclear war was averted and by lalking we persuaded the USSR to back off?
    Talking definitely did nto mean capitualation in that case. Neither did persuasion exclude the showcased military option, the 'on the table' part of stated positions.
    That's what constitutes a full array of foreign relations tools: talking, while the military option is plainly present.

    The either/or appraoch means cutting off 50% of resouces.


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  • CStanley
    Again, going back to the Cuban missile crises, had JFk set preconditions to corresponding with the USSR, applying persuasion would not be possible, and KA-BOOM.

    The only persuasion involved was that Kennedy found a way to give in to Kruschev's demand, removing missiles from Turkey, while saving face by insisting that this part of the deal be kept secret. That was a good thing, but that is not "open diplomacy" and it is not persuasion. It's finding a way to make the deal in a way that doesn't harm one's own interests, which sometimes means making the deals behind closed doors and in non-public channels, so that the opponent doesn't score a propaganda victory.
  • CStanley
    Chris, you are so far to the left that I don't think I can debate these issues with you- we just don't see things the same way at all. And you apparently criticize Obama from the left while I'm critical of him from the other direction, so it's hard to have a real discussion on merits or shortcomings of his policies that way.
  • It's finding a way to make the deal in a way that doesn't harm one's own interests, which sometimes means making the deals behind closed doors and in non-public channels, so that the opponent doesn't score a propaganda victory.


    So you're not really worried about appeasement but propaganda victories? Or, propaganda victories = appeasement?
  • CStanley
    Does anyone seriously think the Munich Agreement had any serious effect on WW2 one way or the other? Hitler was going to invade Poland, and he was going to take all of Czechoslovakia. War was inevitable.Actually, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who DOESN'T think that- or at least that the war could have been won much more quickly and with less bloodshed if the capitulation hadn't occurred. I mean think about what you are saying here- war was inevitable. If that's the case, you don't see a problem with strengthening the hand of the aggressor before you join in the effort to defeat him??

    And that's the point- sometimes war really is inevitable, unless the would be agressor sees that there's enough resolve on the part of the allies of the nation that they seek to conquer that they calculate that they can't win and so they back down. Look at Korea as an example- Truman's administration listed the nations they'd support militarily against aggression and left Korea off the list, which was quickly jumped upon as an opportunity for N. Korea to attempt to annex the south. If the US publicly criticizes Israel or signals weakness in our resolve to come to her defense, a similar dynamic is likely to occur.

    So Chris, no matter what you feel about those Israeli policies, and I think there is room for criticism, there's a difference between private discussions we might have with Israel and publicly selling them down the river.
  • CStanley
    So you're not really worried about appeasement but propaganda victories? Or, propaganda victories = appeasement? I'd say that handing the opponent a propaganda victory is one form of appeasement, yes. Particularly in today's geopolitical climate, where world opinion is so important- and voicing sympathy with the complaints of the terrorists and terrorist supporting states as well as publicly doing a mea culpa over the US's 'cowboy diplomacy' do in effect hand over those propaganda victories.
  • CStanley
    Look at it this way, Chris- is there any doubt that getting world opinion on the side of the terrorists is the coin of the realm these days? And if so, then how is that propaganda victory different than scoring a land concession as in Munich?
  • If that's the case, you don't see a problem with strengthening the hand of the aggressor before you join in the effort to defeat him??

    That's hardly my point.

    If you equate *any* negotiation with appeasement then you abandon anything but a sliver of hope for a diplomatic path to peace.

    Let me tell you what would really be appeasement. Offering to help them dismantle Israel in return for their nuclear program. Offering to let them annex Iraq in return for their nuclear program. Giving them Florida for their nuclear program.

    As opposed to say ending certain sanctions in return for their nuclear program, or helping them generate other sources of energy.

    See the difference?

    So Chris, no matter what you feel about those Israeli policies, and I think there is room for criticism, there's a difference between private discussions we might have with Israel and publicly selling them down the river.

    How would we be selling them down the river by negotiating with Iran publicly? Wouldn't we have to be actually, you know, trading something valuable of Israels to Iran for that to be the case?
  • Look at it this way, Chris- is there any doubt that getting world opinion on the side of the terrorists is the coin of the realm these days? And if so, then how is that propaganda victory different than scoring a land concession as in Munich?


    Yes, I think there are more important things to worry about than propaganda victories. How much of the world is sympathetic to "the terrorists" anyways?

    =====
    I'm heading home, so I won't be on for a while. But it's been a pleasure to argue with you CStanley, as usual.
  • runasim
    CStanley,
    "What specifically can we do to support Israel that isn't an 'emotional' reaction?"

    The ultimate goal, would be to regain a position of trrustwrothiness among Israel's neighbors. That's important in order to be able to pressure them into doing their part to resolve the conflict(s) instead of just sitting back pointing fingers at Israel and the US.

    Why aren't the 'moderate' Arab nations busy helping Palestinians develop economically, for example? We can't pressure them, becasue anything the US says is immediatley suspected of being a ploy to enhance Israel's position and, diminish theirs.

    One immediate step toward reaching that goal would be to watch what we say how we say it, and what we don't say. Words can create powerful perceptions.

    It is a problem, when the humanitarian US,, busy promoting democracy,, never has one word of sympathy for the cilivians dying in Gaza. Dead children are dead children, no matter what political party rules them. Choosing words carefully can eliminate all political connotations and at the same time express a common humanity. Even some Jews recognize this, and there have been attempts by mourning mothers in Israel to reach out ot mourning mothers in Gaza. It's not easy, and nothing is solved by the odd, sporadic gesture. However, the act of reaching out, suffering human to suffering human, reframes the picture. Similarly, we could realign the picture of the US in the ME.

    When the Arabs presened their iproposal for a setlement, why was there no recognition of the effortt, even if it was undoable? Words matter.

    Why have we not talked about the cluster bombs left in Lebanon?
    Why is nothing said about the fact that God seems to have promised the same land to two different peoples?

    These are complicated issues, and it may well be that Israel is right on them.
    The fact that these are taboo subjects in US politics, however, sends only one message to Israel's neighbors: The US has a closed mind when it comes to their oncerns. The result is that the US is shut out of the avenues of influence and persuasion. through which it could support Israel.
  • runasim
    CStanley,
    Re: propoganda to sway world sympathy to favor terrorists:

    What is it that sways world opinion? The perception of injustice, is primary, IMO.
    When actions and words feed the perception, the propoganda ,is ready-made.

    That's exactily my point about foreign relations and conflict resolution.
    Being right is not enough. You have to outsmart and outmaneuver the adversary.
    To do that, you have to be able to gauge the opponent's reaction, instead of just preahing from the pulpit of your own convictions.

    Pride plays a huge part in the psychology of nations and cultures.
    When we disregard the concerns of the opponent, or when we talk down to them', we trigger pride. That, more than almost anything else, can lead to irrational and hostile reactions, rather than compliance. Ergo, if you don't want to trigger irrational and hostile reactions and want to persuade instead, watch what you do and say.

    Terrorists can play the victim card most effectively when they are given good cause by indiscriminate harsh treatment, like torture and detention until proven innocent, or until never. .

    A serious attempt at treating adversaries justly, however undermines the propoganda value of claimed victimhood.
  • runasim
    CStanley,
    The only persuasion involved was that Kennedy found a way to give in to Kruschev's demand, removing missiles from Turkey, while saving face by insisting that this part of the deal be kept secret. -
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Are you saying that a nuclear war would have been the better result, so that those who might object could save some abstract principle? Just how many people have to die for the sake of a cut-'in'-stone principke that benefits no living soul?

    How have we suffered, btw, by removing a few missiles from Turkey? How did that, in any way, impinge on subsequent US interests?
  • runasim
    Cstanley,
    "If the US publicly criticizes Israel or signals weakness in our resolve to come to her defense,..."
    ----------------------------------

    That is the ' if you don't support he war, then you are a traitor' argument.
    It's this either/or phraseology that repeatedly lead us into blind alleys with no escape.

    We can chew gum and walk at the same time,

    Let me ask the oppostie question. What is leading to decreased support for Israel in places like Europe? It's the perception that they are obligated to support Israel, regardless of its policies, even to the point of sacrificing their own self interests. .I think self-interest is bound to trump any other considerations in the long run.
    To truly support Israel, then, that perception has to be reversed.
    No withdrawal of support at all is required, but a re-alignment of how these problemts are discussed is.

    We could, for example, couple discussing Israel's policies with discussing the more questionable policies of its neighbors. This would put everything in a regional framework, instead of keeping it as Israel-aginst-the-world situation, where everyone has to choose sides.
  • CStanley
    Runasim- let me dispense with the Cuban missile crisis comment first. Where did I say that the result wasn't the best possible one under the circumstances? I actually said precisely the opposite- that Kennedy did what he had to do. My comment about it was just to point out that you are using it as an example of something that it is not an example of.
    Why aren't the 'moderate' Arab nations busy helping Palestinians develop economically, for example? We can't pressure them, becasue anything the US says is immediatley suspected of being a ploy to enhance Israel's position and, diminish theirs.
    The problem as I see it here is that you assume there is anything that the US could say which would change the opinion in the Arab world. I don't think there really was EVER a time when that was true, and even if I concede that sometimes our actions and words have made that situation worse, that's still the reality that we have to deal with and I sincerely believe that any attempt to 'speak softly' now will only be interpreted as weakness, not a show of good faith.

    As a rationale for my belief, I noted in another blog comment elsewhere today that when we finally had an opportunity to read the internal communications of the USSR government during the Cold War, it was revealed that although things weren't black and white (USSR wasn't strictly acting out of imperialism, but was indeed sometimes reacting to their own perception of threat from US,) it was also the case that their leaders would not have taken any action on our part as a show of good faith in threat reduction. They would have exploited any such moves as weaknesses on our part. I see no reason to assume otherwise about those who oppose us today.
  • CStanley
    Why aren't the 'moderate' Arab nations busy helping Palestinians develop economically, for example? Because their leaders have chosen instead to keep picking at this scab since it serves as a useful scapegoat to distract from their own inadequacies.
  • Neocon
    We could, for example, couple discussing Israel's policies with discussing the more questionable policies of its neighbors.

    Linkage does not work.

    Linkage is what the progressives are demanding of the Middle east. 50 years of progressive rule and the way things are shaping up in Europe and Israel will once again be homeless.

    They have found a champion in Barak Obama.
  • I sincerely believe that any attempt to 'speak softly' now will only be interpreted as weakness, not a show of good faith.

    And even if it is, what are you afraid of? What more are these guys gonna do? Toughen up CStanley! We're the big badass USA. We could handle the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and we can handle little old Iran.
  • 50 years of progressive rule and the way things are shaping up in Europe and Israel will once again be homeless.

    Is there any way we can bring you down from the mountain of hyperbole?
  • CStanley
    And even if it is, what are you afraid of? What more are these guys gonna do? Toughen up CStanley! We're the big badass USA. We could handle the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany and we can handle little old Iran.
    So, if one considers a particular diplomatic move and thinks that it is boneheaded because there's more potential downside than there is any potential gain, then you're saying that not doing that boneheaded thing means we're afraid?

    Come on, Chris- you're better than that. There's no point in arguing "even if it is" because 'if it is' as I think it is, then it would be foolish to engage in this exercise. If you think I'm wrong and you believe that our enemies in the Middle East really will look upon us differently if we show we are willing to try that approach, then we will just have to agree to disagree- but this has nothing to do with having courage.
  • CStanley,
    You're unable to articulate in concrete terms what the potential downside would be to negotiations. I've heard a lot about nebulous words like 'propaganda victory,' and 'sign of weakness' but little in the way of consequences that mean anything outside of the realm of pride.
  • CStanley
    Well, Chris, considering that you've already said that you don't consider giving Czechoslovakia to Hitler to be an error of significance, I'm going to assume that I can't persuade you that giving propaganda victories is significant even though I think history supports my view that both are so.

    Best quick example I can think of where a president naively approached a summit meeting and came out with egg on his face would be Kennedy, 1961, Vienna summit. As far as I know, most historians view that meeting as an utter failure (certainly there are accounts that have Kennedy himself reporting it as such) and many see a connection between Bay of Pigs, Vienna Summit, and the subsequent emboldening that led Kruschev to begin building missiles in Cuba. So as I've asked elsewhere- when Obama compares himself to Kennedy, is he saying he'll be like the neophyte Kennedy or the one who emerged after realizing that talking without having leverage could bring us to the brink of war?
  • Well, Chris, considering that you've already said that you don't consider giving Czechoslovakia to Hitler to be an error of significance...

    Oh come now... twisting my words like that is beneath you and unnecessary. I can play that game too.

    Well, CStanley, given that you've already said you'd rather see a nuclear war than negotiations that could hand an adversary a PR victory, I don't know how I can convince you of the value of human life.
  • Neocon
    Hyperbole...............A figure of speech in which exageragion is used for emphasis.

    Everyone who follows politics knows that the far left which has repackaged themselves as progressives have always had a problem with Israel. You hear it day in and day out. You can see it in your writings. The minute I posted about Sadat you had to throw out the Assassination of Begin and accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.

    The far left has always had social agendas in mind. They want America to look like Europe with health care for all. 35 hour work weeks, government guarantees for everything they do from the time they get up in the morning till they go to bed at night.

    Israel is a symbol to them. It is the reason we fight in the middle east. It is the reason we have a big military. It is these reasons that we do not have health care and 35 hour work weeks and we do not have nirvana.

    So no. There is no exxageration in my mind when I say given the predisposition of the Europeans toward Israel. Given they put them on boats and told them to go away in 1948. Given that they are Europes "Slavery Issue" (you know that thing a country or a continent is most embarrassed about having in their past) Given that the only thing that has kept them from utterly abandoning Israel was their need to have close relationships to the United States with the USSR staring across barbed wire fences with 2 million soldiers just itching to eat them alive.

    Now the USSR is gone. And now there is no reason to hold the USA near and dear. There is no evil empire to provide the cement that bonds the bricks of this realtionship together. Their world is filling with Muslims as they have opened their doors to them because of serious shorfalls in birthrates in Europe due to several factors that I will not go into now.

    The dynamics of what is transpiring in this world is simple. Israels peaceful survival depends upon America. Every other nation on earth has abandoned her a long time ago. Europe has never been her friend and has never really pretended to be her friend since the 50's.

    And now we have Barak Obama coming to power in America. Being pushed to the gates of Babylon by the far left progressives and their anti Israel stance. His rating by Israeli newspapers puts him at the bottom of the list of those candidates least likely to support Israel. His chief middle east advisor has pushed Israel unmercifully for large concessions.

    Appeasement is in the air. Its just repackaged my friend. Instead of the USA giving away Israel, Barak Obama is going to ask Israel to give herself away. The results are the same.

    If the progressive left (NOT DEMOCRATS) were in power for 50 years and if Europe continues on doing what they are doing today then there is no doubt in my mind that Israel would once again be homeless.
  • CStanley
    Chris, I honestly didn't think I was twisting your words, though I admit to phrasing it with a sarcastic tone. If you think that I mischaracterized you then I'll have to explain further what you meant by your earlier statement:
    Does anyone seriously think the Munich Agreement had any serious effect on WW2 one way or the other? Hitler was going to invade Poland, and he was going to take all of Czechoslovakia. War was inevitable.
    How is not having "any serious effect" different from my paraphrase "<not> an error of significance?"

    And the funny thing is that what you wrote to show an example of twisting my words was pretty much what runasim already did, or didn't you notice?
  • CStanley,
    Allow me to clarify then. I think ceding part of Czechoslovakia was a mistake. Among other things, Czechoslovakia was a sovereign nation and it wasn't Neville Chamberlain's to give away.

    However, while ceding part of Czechoslovakia was a mistake, I still don't think it had any significant effect on the subsequent war. I don't think Hitler was "emboldened" by Chamberlain or anything like that. War was inevitable. The fall of the entirety of Czechoslovakia was probably inevitable too.

    The reason I brought it up at all was because I find the Republican's rhetorical use of the Munich agreement as being dishonest by reason of incompleteness. This is how an honest Munich agreement argument would go:

    War between the United States and Iran is inescapable. Diplomacy of any kind will never alleviate the tension between our two nations.

    That's the only way it works, unless you honestly think that Obama is going to cede something significant to Iran. And no, a propaganda victory doesn't count.
  • The minute I posted about Sadat you had to throw out the Assassination of Begin and accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.

    Because it was true :-) There are implacable nuts on both sides.

    Israel is a symbol to them. It is the reason we fight in the middle east. It is the reason we have a big military. It is these reasons that we do not have health care and 35 hour work weeks and we do not have nirvana.

    There's you climbing that mountain again...

    So no. There is no exxageration in my mind when I say given the predisposition of the Europeans toward Israel. Given they put them on boats and told them to go away in 1948.

    Uhh... remember how our government wouldn't let them come to the United States either?

    Ben-Gurion was okay with that anyways, "If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history of the People of Israel." - 1938

    Their world is filling with Muslims as they have opened their doors to them because of serious shorfalls in birthrates in Europe due to several factors that I will not go into now.

    O noes!

    Israels peaceful survival depends upon America.

    I thought it was assured by their secret nuclear arsenal?

    And now we have Barak Obama coming to power in America. Being pushed to the gates of Babylon by the far left progressives and their anti Israel stance. His rating by Israeli newspapers puts him at the bottom of the list of those candidates least likely to support Israel. His chief middle east advisor has pushed Israel unmercifully for large concessions.

    The air must be thin at the top of the mountain :-)

    You realize that Jews in America overwhelmingly support the Democratic Party and Barack Obama in a matchup with McCain?

    Appeasement is in the air. Its just repackaged my friend. Instead of the USA giving away Israel, Barak Obama is going to ask Israel to give herself away. The results are the same.

    Is this before or after he gives reparations to African Americans? He'll probably sign that one into law while sitting in a mosque!
  • CStanley
    And no, a propaganda victory doesn't count.

    By your measure it doesn't. Let me try one more way to get you to see why it does.

    If Iran scores a propaganda victory, several things happen.

    One, the neutering of the UN Security Council is almost complete (not that that hasn't already transpired, see Hussein, Saddam.) The idea that Iran has to suspend enrichment isn't just a precondition that the US has placed on them, it's the result of the SC resolution. Apparently a US president isn't supposed to act unilaterally in defiance of the SC, unless he's doing so in a way that weakens the response.

    Second, the result of legitimizing Ahmedinejad makes is much less likely that the internal opposition to him from more moderate leaders will oust him. I don't know if you are one who refuses to read anything by Taheri but he's got an article about how this is already manifesting itself, since some of the leaders are deciding to play a waiting game with the US election. That's actually one of the main points of the current strategy- that diplomatic isolation coupled with economic sanctions can force Iran to moderate, because their isolated position isn't sustainable.

    And for the third part, what you seem to ignore is that the US is part of the Quartet negotiating for a peaceful settlement of the two state map for Israel and Palestine. So in that regard, if we fail to support Israel's interests for her own existence by legitimizing a leader who has stated a desire to obliterate her, then we are doing exactly what you've said Chamberlain did to Czechoslovakia- giving away what isn't ours to give. Obviously we wouldn't be doing it directly- no one is claiming that Obama's planning to sign an agreement saying that Israel no longer exists and the Palestinians are the rightful inhabitants of that entire territory. But in effect what Chamberlain did was assure Germany that the Allies wouldn't defend that territory that he wanted to take-and that's the exact same effect of going to Iran and allowing them to believe that we don't have the resolve to defend Israeli territory.

    And sorry, but I reject your assertion that WWII was inevitable. Even if it was, there's certainly reason to believe it would have been a much more limited conflict if the Allies had acted with resolve instead of an attempt to placate Hitler. But the basic premise of those of us who support a harder line diplomacy is that such approaches work better to prevent war than a softer approach does, at least in situations where you face a determined aggressor. The way I see it, the real question is whether the aggressive motivations are really there or not; currently many conservatives see that motivation in Ahmadinejad but not necessarily in the more moderate mullahs of Iran. So forcing Iran to choose between the aggressive and the more acceptable course for regional stability is based on making the mullahs see that Ahmad's way is a dead end.
  • CStanley
    Also, Chris, you might want to note that everyone from Bill Richardson to Chris Dodd to Joe Biden to Susan Rice is attempting to back off of Obama's stated position, so maybe, just maybe, the rest of the world really does think it's naive and a bit dangerous to pledge to talk mano-a-mano with leaders of countries that support terrorism and have nuclear aims, without precondition?
  • CStanley,
    I didn't note that. Link me!
  • CStanley
    Biden's is the most cutting, so I'll give you that one first:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2IRYCHy3y4

    Here's Rice dialing down on the idea that it would be Ahmad. specificallly that Obama would meet with (yet Obama did at least one time say that he'd meet with Ahmad.):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5xj82Zuc0Y

    You'll have to google for the others, I've gotta run...
  • "Appeasers" who have caught hell from the far right:

    John F. Kennedy for promising not to invade Cuba if missiles were withdrawn by Russia

    Dwight D. Eisenhower for inviting Khrushchev to the United States

    Ronald Reagan for reaching arms control agreement with Gorbachev

    Obama for even suggeting talking with our foes

    "Appeasers" who have not caught hell from the far right:

    George W. Bush for talking and negotiating with Libya, North Korea and Iran
  • Neocon
    So Chris then we have your assurance and agreement that Israel is safe, must be protected and that no further concessions on their part is necessary.

    Further that Barak Obama will not demand that Israel give up anything but will in fact bargain with Hamas and everyone else who wants to destroy Israel with an iron fist because "Israel's security" is first and foremost.

    I am glad to know that you favor those things.
  • CStanley
    Don't know if Chris or anyone else is still checking in here, but I just came across this:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/opinion/22thr...

    I don't know who these authors are but they're channelling me! Maybe they read my blog comments and decided to write an op-ed with my thesis. LOL
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