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	<title>Comments on: NPR: 2 families, 2 approaches to gender identity</title>
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		<title>By: black model</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-112127</link>
		<dc:creator>black model</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 21:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-112127</guid>
		<description>[...] with Sons?? Gender Preferences, which may suggest to some that those boys make a choice about theihttp://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi...Pioneer&#039;s KURO line of plasma HDTVs gets deeper black levels infoSyncWorldPioneer&#039;s 2008 KURO models [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with Sons?? Gender Preferences, which may suggest to some that those boys make a choice about theihttp://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi&#8230;Pioneer&#8217;s KURO line of plasma HDTVs gets deeper black levels infoSyncWorldPioneer&#8217;s 2008 KURO models [...]</p>
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		<title>By: OJ is innocent. It was Voice Pathologists &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quick Roundup</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-112122</link>
		<dc:creator>OJ is innocent. It was Voice Pathologists &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quick Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 16:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-112122</guid>
		<description>[...] http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi...Thirty-five years ago, homosexuality was considered a mental illness — a pathology so severe that it required aggressive therapeutic intervention. According to Jack Drescher, former chairman of the American Psychiatric Association’s &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi...Thirty-five" rel="nofollow">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi&#8230;Thirty-five</a> years ago, homosexuality was considered a mental illness — a pathology so severe that it required aggressive therapeutic intervention. According to Jack Drescher, former chairman of the American Psychiatric Association’s &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132557</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 15:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132557</guid>
		<description>Lynx, all I&#039;m really saying is that I can easily imagine that some people overdo it and mistake the kids who are just role playing for a kid who self identifies as the other gender. As mikkel said, the latter is probably pretty rare and my hunch is that some kids in more traditional households are forced into adopting a traditional gender role rather than the one he/she self identifies as, and that the opposite is probably also true- that some kids raised in liberal environments might be overly encouraged to adopt the nontraditional role and eventually come to see him/herself that way even though it wasn&#039;t innate. I&#039;m making the argument that it&#039;s probably nature plus nurture, with some small subset being a certain way due to nature and then others becoming that way due to nurture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lynx, all I&#39;m really saying is that I can easily imagine that some people overdo it and mistake the kids who are just role playing for a kid who self identifies as the other gender. As mikkel said, the latter is probably pretty rare and my hunch is that some kids in more traditional households are forced into adopting a traditional gender role rather than the one he/she self identifies as, and that the opposite is probably also true- that some kids raised in liberal environments might be overly encouraged to adopt the nontraditional role and eventually come to see him/herself that way even though it wasn&#39;t innate. I&#39;m making the argument that it&#39;s probably nature plus nurture, with some small subset being a certain way due to nature and then others becoming that way due to nurture.</p>
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		<title>By: EEllis</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132552</link>
		<dc:creator>EEllis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 05:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132552</guid>
		<description>&quot;funny how there are NO cases of straight to gay therapy huh?&quot;&lt;br&gt;Are you serious? That&#039;s absurd. Many people have had issues that they have sought therapy for and found thru that therapy that they were gay. Trying to be something you&#039;re not screws with everything in your life with consequences well overshadowing what goes on in the bedrooms. When you read about the kid I start seeing other non gender issues so of course I wonder and think that it is most likely way to soon to label this kid as anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;funny how there are NO cases of straight to gay therapy huh?&#8221;<br />Are you serious? That&#39;s absurd. Many people have had issues that they have sought therapy for and found thru that therapy that they were gay. Trying to be something you&#39;re not screws with everything in your life with consequences well overshadowing what goes on in the bedrooms. When you read about the kid I start seeing other non gender issues so of course I wonder and think that it is most likely way to soon to label this kid as anything.</p>
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		<title>By: barbie</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-112107</link>
		<dc:creator>barbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 05:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-112107</guid>
		<description>[...] with Sons?? Gender Preferences, which may suggest to some that those boys make a choice about theihttp://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi...Country roads take this &#039;Backwoods Barbie&#039; home Pioneer PressAs a brand, Dolly Parton is as [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with Sons?? Gender Preferences, which may suggest to some that those boys make a choice about theihttp://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi&#8230;Country roads take this &#8216;Backwoods Barbie&#8217; home Pioneer PressAs a brand, Dolly Parton is as [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SportinLife</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132546</link>
		<dc:creator>SportinLife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 03:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132546</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, I didn&#039;t.  Thanks for the tip!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#39;re right, I didn&#39;t.  Thanks for the tip!</p>
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		<title>By: mikkel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132544</link>
		<dc:creator>mikkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 03:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132544</guid>
		<description>runasim: I can&#039;t say I disagree, except I am under the impression that questioning your gender identity is pretty rare and therefore any serious questioning could be considered &quot;extreme.&quot; I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s like the Kinsey scale of sexuality. Even transvestites and drag queens have very quick and solid answers on which gender they identify as.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But in general what you said is a pretty good rule for parenting. Also I think it&#039;s impossible to not have your child look back and question &quot;what if&quot; in something being different! What if my dad had forced me to play tennis when he wanted to, I might have been a pro...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>runasim: I can&#39;t say I disagree, except I am under the impression that questioning your gender identity is pretty rare and therefore any serious questioning could be considered &#8220;extreme.&#8221; I&#39;m not sure it&#39;s like the Kinsey scale of sexuality. Even transvestites and drag queens have very quick and solid answers on which gender they identify as.</p>
<p>But in general what you said is a pretty good rule for parenting. Also I think it&#39;s impossible to not have your child look back and question &#8220;what if&#8221; in something being different! What if my dad had forced me to play tennis when he wanted to, I might have been a pro&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: mikkel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132538</link>
		<dc:creator>mikkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 03:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132538</guid>
		<description>Oops, you must not have it in thread mode. My comment was to Robyrt. Of course I don&#039;t think there is a justification for violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, you must not have it in thread mode. My comment was to Robyrt. Of course I don&#39;t think there is a justification for violence.</p>
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		<title>By: office sex</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-112105</link>
		<dc:creator>office sex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-112105</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
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		<title>By: runasim</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132531</link>
		<dc:creator>runasim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132531</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m bothered by the across-the-board generalizations here, both in how the child&#039;s gender identity is determined and how child rearing practices are recommended.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Behaviors are pointers, but it&#039;s not always clear what they point to.  &lt;br&gt;Also, I don&#039;t know how much help extreme cases are in provididing  guidance for parents whose children appear to indicate a gender preference , but it&#039;s borderline.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In the best of all possible worlds, I would delay final decisiona as long as possible (no surgery) and just concentrate on removing anxiety from the child&#039;s process of  developing his/het  final self-identity., &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The outside world makes it tough, both for the child and for the parents.  Fitting in is a huge challenge and it&#039;s potentially deep scar producing.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The existence of phases is real, too. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Not trying to influence the child has an effect, just like overt attempts to inluence him do.   Some people grow up with neuroses because their parents forced them to take arduous piano lessons. Other people  blame parents for not  making sure they could play the piano well.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Where is the golden middle, the safe road??&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My sympathies are as much for the parents as for the children.. If only they had a crystal ball to tell them what the outcome would be.  They have to navigate in the dark on that score, however.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I come back to concentrating on the individual child, on what helps him get through his days in a harsh world.  &lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t see any easy answers, exept  for the gemeral; rule pf avoiding extremes and removig anxiety.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m bothered by the across-the-board generalizations here, both in how the child&#39;s gender identity is determined and how child rearing practices are recommended.</p>
<p>Behaviors are pointers, but it&#39;s not always clear what they point to.  <br />Also, I don&#39;t know how much help extreme cases are in provididing  guidance for parents whose children appear to indicate a gender preference , but it&#39;s borderline.</p>
<p>In the best of all possible worlds, I would delay final decisiona as long as possible (no surgery) and just concentrate on removing anxiety from the child&#39;s process of  developing his/het  final self-identity., </p>
<p>The outside world makes it tough, both for the child and for the parents.  Fitting in is a huge challenge and it&#39;s potentially deep scar producing.  </p>
<p>The existence of phases is real, too. </p>
<p>Not trying to influence the child has an effect, just like overt attempts to inluence him do.   Some people grow up with neuroses because their parents forced them to take arduous piano lessons. Other people  blame parents for not  making sure they could play the piano well.</p>
<p>Where is the golden middle, the safe road??</p>
<p>My sympathies are as much for the parents as for the children.. If only they had a crystal ball to tell them what the outcome would be.  They have to navigate in the dark on that score, however.</p>
<p>I come back to concentrating on the individual child, on what helps him get through his days in a harsh world.  <br />I don&#39;t see any easy answers, exept  for the gemeral; rule pf avoiding extremes and removig anxiety.</p>
<p>.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132529</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132529</guid>
		<description>CStanley, but if you ask your son if he&#039;s a boy or a girl, he&#039;ll tell you he&#039;s a boy. Does he want to wear a dress to school? What about his name, does he want a female name, does he want to be addressed as &quot;she&quot;? I of course assume not, and in fact I&#039;m betting that if you took any regular boy and asked him to do any of these things they would act at LEAST as uncomfortable as these children are with being treated like boys.&lt;br&gt;To me it&#039;s a matter that Cammurabi touched on; being effeminate and being gay (or transgendered) are not in any way equivalent (never mind that the word transgendered itself groups many different sorts of people). From my also layperson view, liking girly things is not a mere lower level than feeling you are a girl, it&#039;s a totally different quantity. I was a complete tomboy through early adolescence and I still relate much better to men than women, but I never EVER thought I was a boy, or even thought I&#039;d rather be a boy, nor did I ever feel attraction to girls I just liked (and still like)  stuff that boys happen to like (other than sex with women, which I understand is high on their list). &lt;br&gt;The children I&#039;ve seen with certain gender vague traits (there&#039;s no way I could tell from a casual observation if a child has GID) have been both in SF and in Madrid, BTW. As for the accepting atmosphere, the few kids I&#039;ve seen close up to see their surroundings I assure you acted that way because they could not help themselves. I&#039;m 90% that if they could wave a wand and be normal, they would, because children are very cruel, and these kids got no end of hell for being different.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I agree about not forcing a child, one way OR the other though. But it&#039;s not easy when the issue is children who wish to be identified by one gender. At that point, a decision sort of has to be reached, it would seem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CStanley, but if you ask your son if he&#39;s a boy or a girl, he&#39;ll tell you he&#39;s a boy. Does he want to wear a dress to school? What about his name, does he want a female name, does he want to be addressed as &#8220;she&#8221;? I of course assume not, and in fact I&#39;m betting that if you took any regular boy and asked him to do any of these things they would act at LEAST as uncomfortable as these children are with being treated like boys.<br />To me it&#39;s a matter that Cammurabi touched on; being effeminate and being gay (or transgendered) are not in any way equivalent (never mind that the word transgendered itself groups many different sorts of people). From my also layperson view, liking girly things is not a mere lower level than feeling you are a girl, it&#39;s a totally different quantity. I was a complete tomboy through early adolescence and I still relate much better to men than women, but I never EVER thought I was a boy, or even thought I&#39;d rather be a boy, nor did I ever feel attraction to girls I just liked (and still like)  stuff that boys happen to like (other than sex with women, which I understand is high on their list). <br />The children I&#39;ve seen with certain gender vague traits (there&#39;s no way I could tell from a casual observation if a child has GID) have been both in SF and in Madrid, BTW. As for the accepting atmosphere, the few kids I&#39;ve seen close up to see their surroundings I assure you acted that way because they could not help themselves. I&#39;m 90% that if they could wave a wand and be normal, they would, because children are very cruel, and these kids got no end of hell for being different.</p>
<p>I agree about not forcing a child, one way OR the other though. But it&#39;s not easy when the issue is children who wish to be identified by one gender. At that point, a decision sort of has to be reached, it would seem.</p>
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		<title>By: SportinLife</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132522</link>
		<dc:creator>SportinLife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 21:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132522</guid>
		<description>mikkel, I&#039;d already read the transcript before I came to my opinion, so no, doing so doesn&#039;t change it.  I&#039;m not trying to render a judgment on Carol so much as use her as an illustration of how accepted--and even expected--violence against feminine boys and men is in our society.  It seems wrong to me that the bullies aren&#039;t the ones being hauled off to be treated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mikkel, I&#39;d already read the transcript before I came to my opinion, so no, doing so doesn&#39;t change it.  I&#39;m not trying to render a judgment on Carol so much as use her as an illustration of how accepted&#8211;and even expected&#8211;violence against feminine boys and men is in our society.  It seems wrong to me that the bullies aren&#39;t the ones being hauled off to be treated.</p>
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		<title>By: CStanley</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132512</link>
		<dc:creator>CStanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132512</guid>
		<description>As much neutrality as possible until puberty seems the most wise course to me. As mikkel mentions, sexuality itself doesn&#039;t assert itself until the child biologically becomes an adult (what we think of as adolescent- but having reached sexual maturation.) So why judge childhood behaviors one way or another? Lynx, for example, mentions being able to &#039;tell&#039; about young kids in her experience in a locality where transgender was completely accepted- but how do we know that some of the kids who displayed those tendencies weren&#039;t encouraged-either overtly or unintentionally by well meaning open minded parents- to become more transgendered than they really are? Why not stop hyperventilating over whether or not it means anything that a kid likes to play dress up or even role play as the opposite gender? That seems to me like it could EASILY be just part of ordinary fantasy play that kids do to explore their reality, instead of needing to feel feminine because that&#039;s their true identity. My boy likes to pretend he&#039;s Captain Jack Sparrow but I don&#039;t think he&#039;s going to grow up to raid merchant vessels at sea- and on occasions when he chooses to play with his older sister&#039;s old dress up clothes or LOL- a recent obsession with a very girlie diary- I don&#039;t attribute any future adult behavior or identity to that behavior either.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In short- my admittedly layperson&#039;s opinion is- just let them be kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As much neutrality as possible until puberty seems the most wise course to me. As mikkel mentions, sexuality itself doesn&#39;t assert itself until the child biologically becomes an adult (what we think of as adolescent- but having reached sexual maturation.) So why judge childhood behaviors one way or another? Lynx, for example, mentions being able to &#39;tell&#39; about young kids in her experience in a locality where transgender was completely accepted- but how do we know that some of the kids who displayed those tendencies weren&#39;t encouraged-either overtly or unintentionally by well meaning open minded parents- to become more transgendered than they really are? Why not stop hyperventilating over whether or not it means anything that a kid likes to play dress up or even role play as the opposite gender? That seems to me like it could EASILY be just part of ordinary fantasy play that kids do to explore their reality, instead of needing to feel feminine because that&#39;s their true identity. My boy likes to pretend he&#39;s Captain Jack Sparrow but I don&#39;t think he&#39;s going to grow up to raid merchant vessels at sea- and on occasions when he chooses to play with his older sister&#39;s old dress up clothes or LOL- a recent obsession with a very girlie diary- I don&#39;t attribute any future adult behavior or identity to that behavior either.</p>
<p>In short- my admittedly layperson&#39;s opinion is- just let them be kids.</p>
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		<title>By: mikkel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132509</link>
		<dc:creator>mikkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132509</guid>
		<description>Yeah but I encourage you to go to the link and read it and see if it changes your opinion.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;Then, on Halloween, the calculus began to tip.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;To simulate Dorothy&#039;s hair, Carol covered Bradley&#039;s blond crewcut with a brown tea towel. Bradley loved it. In fact, he became obsessed with his tea-towel hair. For months afterward he would wake up every morning and put the towel on his head. When Carol tried to remove it, he would protest.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;It was really obsessive,&quot; Carol says. &quot;We really had to negotiate times when he just couldn&#039;t wear it anymore. ... He seemed to feel uncomfortable and nervous sometimes when he didn&#039;t have this hair, this tea-towel hair.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;and &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I mean, he tells us now that he doesn&#039;t dream anymore that he&#039;s a girl. So, we&#039;re happy with that. He&#039;s still a bit defensive if we ask him, &#039;Do you want to be a girl?&#039; He&#039;s like &#039;No, NO! I&#039;m happy being a boy. ...&#039; He gives us that sort of stock answer. ... I still think we&#039;re at the stage where he feels he&#039;s leading a double life,&quot; she says. &quot;... I&#039;m still quite certain that he is with the girls all the time at school, and so he knows to behave one way at school, and then when he comes home, there&#039;s a different set of expectations.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I presume as a child you didn&#039;t start wanting to take on the physicals characteristics of girls and dream about being one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah but I encourage you to go to the link and read it and see if it changes your opinion.</p>
<blockquote><p>Then, on Halloween, the calculus began to tip.</p>
<p>To simulate Dorothy&#39;s hair, Carol covered Bradley&#39;s blond crewcut with a brown tea towel. Bradley loved it. In fact, he became obsessed with his tea-towel hair. For months afterward he would wake up every morning and put the towel on his head. When Carol tried to remove it, he would protest.</p>
<p>&#8220;It was really obsessive,&#8221; Carol says. &#8220;We really had to negotiate times when he just couldn&#39;t wear it anymore. &#8230; He seemed to feel uncomfortable and nervous sometimes when he didn&#39;t have this hair, this tea-towel hair.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>and </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I mean, he tells us now that he doesn&#39;t dream anymore that he&#39;s a girl. So, we&#39;re happy with that. He&#39;s still a bit defensive if we ask him, &#39;Do you want to be a girl?&#39; He&#39;s like &#39;No, NO! I&#39;m happy being a boy. &#8230;&#39; He gives us that sort of stock answer. &#8230; I still think we&#39;re at the stage where he feels he&#39;s leading a double life,&#8221; she says. &#8220;&#8230; I&#39;m still quite certain that he is with the girls all the time at school, and so he knows to behave one way at school, and then when he comes home, there&#39;s a different set of expectations.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I presume as a child you didn&#39;t start wanting to take on the physicals characteristics of girls and dream about being one.</p>
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		<title>By: female legs</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-112100</link>
		<dc:creator>female legs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-112100</guid>
		<description>[...] with female characters and gravitated toward female children. But Carol had never thought to ...http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi...Beta Of The Year Award: Husband Takes Wife??s Name One of the telltale signs of the escalating [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with female characters and gravitated toward female children. But Carol had never thought to &#8230;http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identi&#8230;Beta Of The Year Award: Husband Takes Wife??s Name One of the telltale signs of the escalating [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SportinLife</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132502</link>
		<dc:creator>SportinLife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 19:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132502</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;“So that sort of struck me, that, you know, if he doesn’t learn to socialize with both males and females … he was going to get hurt.”  Carol decided to seek professional help.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I read this as Carol blaming her son for getting beaten up.  She&#039;s taking the side of the playground bullies and telling her son he needs &quot;treatment&quot; because other people hate him for being too feminine.  She probably wouldn&#039;t see it that way, but I can&#039;t find any way around my interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>“So that sort of struck me, that, you know, if he doesn’t learn to socialize with both males and females … he was going to get hurt.”  Carol decided to seek professional help.</i></p>
<p>I read this as Carol blaming her son for getting beaten up.  She&#39;s taking the side of the playground bullies and telling her son he needs &#8220;treatment&#8221; because other people hate him for being too feminine.  She probably wouldn&#39;t see it that way, but I can&#39;t find any way around my interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: Robyrt</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132490</link>
		<dc:creator>Robyrt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 19:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132490</guid>
		<description>Playing devil&#039;s advocate here - as a boy, I was a lot like the first child in that article, being called girly because of my fondness for girls and their accoutrements. My fundamentalist Christian parents responded by buying me trucks, Hardy Boys novels, etc. just like the psychologist above recommended. I eventually grew out of it, and am now a well-adjusted straight male.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m not advocating the ex-gay movement or anything, just saying that it&#039;s not always right to jump on perceived gender identity before someone is old enough to realize or articulate what they really feel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Playing devil&#39;s advocate here &#8211; as a boy, I was a lot like the first child in that article, being called girly because of my fondness for girls and their accoutrements. My fundamentalist Christian parents responded by buying me trucks, Hardy Boys novels, etc. just like the psychologist above recommended. I eventually grew out of it, and am now a well-adjusted straight male.</p>
<p>I&#39;m not advocating the ex-gay movement or anything, just saying that it&#39;s not always right to jump on perceived gender identity before someone is old enough to realize or articulate what they really feel.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynx</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132488</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 19:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132488</guid>
		<description>EEllis, I suspect the matter of dressing in a certain way occurs as a response to the disconnect between what you feel inside and what your eyes tell you is your gender. Simply put, the child feels like a girl, thinks she&#039;s a girl, identifies as a girl, but during bath time sees her wee-wee and hears parents, teachers etc. calling her &quot;he&quot;, which causes distress. Probably wanting to wear dresses is a way of reaffirming that they are female, a way of compensating for the biological reality. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;While I don&#039;t reject the idea that some people can go through confusion with their orientation, the rejection to conversion &quot;therapy&quot; is justified for several reasons:&lt;br&gt;1. The minute you need &quot;therapy&quot; it&#039;s because you have a &quot;pathology&quot;. By accepting gay to straight (funny how there are NO cases of straight to gay therapy huh?0) therapies, you are implicitly saying that being gay is a pathology, a bad thing, hence the rejection from the gay community. Of course there could be people who are going through a time of confusion and need help, but therapy must be oriented towards helping you be what you really are, not pre.designed to be uni-directional gay to straight, but leaving open the possibility that you are really gay and it&#039;s the straight feelings which are the anomaly.&lt;br&gt;2. The &quot;Ex-gay&quot; movement is pretty much exclusively made up of fundamentalist Christians. This is not a group of people who base their work on psychological or medical sciences, but on religion. Homosexuality is sin, therefore it must be a choice always and &quot;curable&quot; always. Conversion advocates view ALL gays as actually straights suffering from a pathology. This does not engender friendship from gays, as you might imagine.&lt;br&gt;3. A child who is 2 and is self-identifying as another gender is a pretty strong argument in favor of it being biological and not a lifestyle choice, since I would suppose very young children self identify based on instinct, not based on a sophisticated internal simulation of what a female and a male is and what sounds better.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In any event I would LOVE to read what Clarissa has to say on this subject, being as she&#039;s the one with actual, you know, knowledge of psychology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EEllis, I suspect the matter of dressing in a certain way occurs as a response to the disconnect between what you feel inside and what your eyes tell you is your gender. Simply put, the child feels like a girl, thinks she&#39;s a girl, identifies as a girl, but during bath time sees her wee-wee and hears parents, teachers etc. calling her &#8220;he&#8221;, which causes distress. Probably wanting to wear dresses is a way of reaffirming that they are female, a way of compensating for the biological reality. </p>
<p>While I don&#39;t reject the idea that some people can go through confusion with their orientation, the rejection to conversion &#8220;therapy&#8221; is justified for several reasons:<br />1. The minute you need &#8220;therapy&#8221; it&#39;s because you have a &#8220;pathology&#8221;. By accepting gay to straight (funny how there are NO cases of straight to gay therapy huh?0) therapies, you are implicitly saying that being gay is a pathology, a bad thing, hence the rejection from the gay community. Of course there could be people who are going through a time of confusion and need help, but therapy must be oriented towards helping you be what you really are, not pre.designed to be uni-directional gay to straight, but leaving open the possibility that you are really gay and it&#39;s the straight feelings which are the anomaly.<br />2. The &#8220;Ex-gay&#8221; movement is pretty much exclusively made up of fundamentalist Christians. This is not a group of people who base their work on psychological or medical sciences, but on religion. Homosexuality is sin, therefore it must be a choice always and &#8220;curable&#8221; always. Conversion advocates view ALL gays as actually straights suffering from a pathology. This does not engender friendship from gays, as you might imagine.<br />3. A child who is 2 and is self-identifying as another gender is a pretty strong argument in favor of it being biological and not a lifestyle choice, since I would suppose very young children self identify based on instinct, not based on a sophisticated internal simulation of what a female and a male is and what sounds better.</p>
<p>In any event I would LOVE to read what Clarissa has to say on this subject, being as she&#39;s the one with actual, you know, knowledge of psychology.</p>
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		<title>By: EEllis</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132481</link>
		<dc:creator>EEllis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132481</guid>
		<description>See one of my problems is at 5 who even realizes that they are dressing a certain way? Some kids play army and some prefer house but there is always overlap between them and it&#039;s hard to see the need to define someone that young. My other concern is that I your sexual identity can be effected by things experienced. Sometimes people go &quot;gay&quot; who may not be. The blanket hate from the gay community over the idea that anyone would try to &quot;cure&quot; them sometimes obscures the fact that some people do needed help. Right now it&#039;s hard to see the individual thru the issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See one of my problems is at 5 who even realizes that they are dressing a certain way? Some kids play army and some prefer house but there is always overlap between them and it&#39;s hard to see the need to define someone that young. My other concern is that I your sexual identity can be effected by things experienced. Sometimes people go &#8220;gay&#8221; who may not be. The blanket hate from the gay community over the idea that anyone would try to &#8220;cure&#8221; them sometimes obscures the fact that some people do needed help. Right now it&#39;s hard to see the individual thru the issues.</p>
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		<title>By: mikkel</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/comment-page-1/#comment-132471</link>
		<dc:creator>mikkel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/society/family/father/19448/npr-2-families-2-approaches-to-gender-identity/#comment-132471</guid>
		<description>Well Cammurabi, this is less about homosexuality and more about gender identity. I agree with you about the sexuality/femininity thing, but the article also had this&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;By the time he was 5, Jonah had made it very clear to his parents that he wanted to wear girl clothes full time — that he wanted to be known as a girl. He wanted them to call him their daughter.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;That is not about being gay/straight but about gender. I believe most transsexuals are actually straight inasmuch as they are attracted to the opposite gender of the one they identify as.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now I don&#039;t really know many transsexuals, but I also found this quote interesting&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;In other words, allowing a child like Jonah to transition in kindergarten will essentially track him into becoming a transgender adult. And for Zucker, no child under the age of 10 or 11 can be definitively labeled transgender. He says that kids&#039; gender identities are flexible. And that even a child like Jonah, who appears to be absolutely consistent from the ages of 1 and 2, can change.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think that this is an interesting position to take, and from what I&#039;ve read I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s true. I am always critical when people try to label kids as gay/straight since that is about sexuality and most of the time doesn&#039;t come into play until near puberty. Just because a kid likes playing with dolls doesn&#039;t mean that he&#039;ll be gay. So I agree that until about 10/11 (at least, I know a lot of people that didn&#039;t realize until 17-18) it&#039;s not wise to judge about sexuality.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the other hand, boy/girl is one of the first constructs that we identify with. I have a hard time seeing (does anyone know differently?) that many people would self identify as a different gender only to change their mind. I think it is far more likely that they will simply repress their urges. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It seems like Zucker was way too fixated both on the sexual aspect and the physical aspect: &quot;&quot;We&#039;re not talking about minor medical treatments. ... You&#039;re talking about lifelong hormonal treatment; you&#039;re talking about serious and substantive surgery,&quot; he says.&quot; like the child will instantly be taken to be fixed once the diagnosis is made. It&#039;s appropriate to delay those sorts of changes until they are older (and I can see how lots of therapy to figure out the best way to express the gender might be required) but that is different than not allowing them to express who they are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Cammurabi, this is less about homosexuality and more about gender identity. I agree with you about the sexuality/femininity thing, but the article also had this<br />
<blockquote>By the time he was 5, Jonah had made it very clear to his parents that he wanted to wear girl clothes full time — that he wanted to be known as a girl. He wanted them to call him their daughter.</p></blockquote>
<p>That is not about being gay/straight but about gender. I believe most transsexuals are actually straight inasmuch as they are attracted to the opposite gender of the one they identify as.</p>
<p>Now I don&#39;t really know many transsexuals, but I also found this quote interesting<br />
<blockquote>In other words, allowing a child like Jonah to transition in kindergarten will essentially track him into becoming a transgender adult. And for Zucker, no child under the age of 10 or 11 can be definitively labeled transgender. He says that kids&#39; gender identities are flexible. And that even a child like Jonah, who appears to be absolutely consistent from the ages of 1 and 2, can change.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that this is an interesting position to take, and from what I&#39;ve read I&#39;m not sure it&#39;s true. I am always critical when people try to label kids as gay/straight since that is about sexuality and most of the time doesn&#39;t come into play until near puberty. Just because a kid likes playing with dolls doesn&#39;t mean that he&#39;ll be gay. So I agree that until about 10/11 (at least, I know a lot of people that didn&#39;t realize until 17-18) it&#39;s not wise to judge about sexuality.</p>
<p>On the other hand, boy/girl is one of the first constructs that we identify with. I have a hard time seeing (does anyone know differently?) that many people would self identify as a different gender only to change their mind. I think it is far more likely that they will simply repress their urges. </p>
<p>It seems like Zucker was way too fixated both on the sexual aspect and the physical aspect: &#8220;&#8221;We&#39;re not talking about minor medical treatments. &#8230; You&#39;re talking about lifelong hormonal treatment; you&#39;re talking about serious and substantive surgery,&#8221; he says.&#8221; like the child will instantly be taken to be fixed once the diagnosis is made. It&#39;s appropriate to delay those sorts of changes until they are older (and I can see how lots of therapy to figure out the best way to express the gender might be required) but that is different than not allowing them to express who they are.</p>
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