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	<title>Comments on: Progress Report Dog &amp; Pony Show, Day 2: Kicking The Can Down the Road to 2009</title>
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		<title>By: StockBoySF</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137471</link>
		<dc:creator>StockBoySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137471</guid>
		<description>As far as the dog and pony show... no one expected anything more.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bush doesn&#039;t want to win the war (if he did he would have put in real plans, which DO require sacrifice and/or tough decisions- especially about Iran&#039;s role in the ME).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The word coward is one I have used to describe Bush before and I think is apt.  Bush taunts with, &quot;Bring &#039;em on&quot; while being the most heavily guarded person the world has ever seen.  Just like a school yard bully who kicks sands in other kids&#039; faces but who has his own followers to protect him.  He invaded Iraq because he thought it would be easy and he could use all that oil money to payback all his oil business friends- remember all those no-bid contracts that went to his campaign supporters?  A lot of other governments were forced into the coalition and I remember the protests from those other governments that they weren&#039;t able to share more fully in the rebuilding process.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bush has no honor whatsoever.  He does what he wants, abuses our own constitution which he swore to protect, claims he has the ultimate authority over torture (after saying we don&#039;t torture- suddenly he claims we have and we might in the future if he says it&#039;s ok), he does not make public appearances (he only speaks to people in carefully vetted audiences) and lies to the media when he wants to.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If Bush were a man of honor and courage, then he wouldn&#039;t hide behind his dwindling number of supporters, he wouldn&#039;t lie to the country, and he would be able to make a case for any of his causes without the need to lie.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Oh, and let&#039;s not forget about all those pre-conditions Bush insists that his enemies agree to BEFORE he will negotiate with them.  Certainly pre-conditions are necessary but the types of pre-conditions that Bush wants Iran, N. Korea, etc. to agree to are usually part of the negotiations.  Bush is such a coward he won&#039;t even allow his government to meet with our enemies to negotiate on issues.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The office of the President of the United States of America commands great respect. Unfortunately Bush is such a small man that he has diminished the office.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Coward is the right word for Bush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as the dog and pony show&#8230; no one expected anything more.  </p>
<p>Bush doesn&#39;t want to win the war (if he did he would have put in real plans, which DO require sacrifice and/or tough decisions- especially about Iran&#39;s role in the ME).</p>
<p>The word coward is one I have used to describe Bush before and I think is apt.  Bush taunts with, &#8220;Bring &#39;em on&#8221; while being the most heavily guarded person the world has ever seen.  Just like a school yard bully who kicks sands in other kids&#39; faces but who has his own followers to protect him.  He invaded Iraq because he thought it would be easy and he could use all that oil money to payback all his oil business friends- remember all those no-bid contracts that went to his campaign supporters?  A lot of other governments were forced into the coalition and I remember the protests from those other governments that they weren&#39;t able to share more fully in the rebuilding process.</p>
<p>Bush has no honor whatsoever.  He does what he wants, abuses our own constitution which he swore to protect, claims he has the ultimate authority over torture (after saying we don&#39;t torture- suddenly he claims we have and we might in the future if he says it&#39;s ok), he does not make public appearances (he only speaks to people in carefully vetted audiences) and lies to the media when he wants to.  </p>
<p>If Bush were a man of honor and courage, then he wouldn&#39;t hide behind his dwindling number of supporters, he wouldn&#39;t lie to the country, and he would be able to make a case for any of his causes without the need to lie.</p>
<p>Oh, and let&#39;s not forget about all those pre-conditions Bush insists that his enemies agree to BEFORE he will negotiate with them.  Certainly pre-conditions are necessary but the types of pre-conditions that Bush wants Iran, N. Korea, etc. to agree to are usually part of the negotiations.  Bush is such a coward he won&#39;t even allow his government to meet with our enemies to negotiate on issues.</p>
<p>The office of the President of the United States of America commands great respect. Unfortunately Bush is such a small man that he has diminished the office.</p>
<p>Coward is the right word for Bush.</p>
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		<title>By: StockBoySF</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137470</link>
		<dc:creator>StockBoySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 04:19:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137470</guid>
		<description>&quot;...and people keep foolishly signing up to serve in the armed forces to go die and be mangled so Bush and Cheney can make their buddies rich...&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I think that&#039;s a little unfair to the people who sign up for military service.  Many (if not most) of those people have no other options- they are from poor areas, probably with a baby on the way, ot newborn, and with no other jobs available to them they have to sign up.  Particularly since the signing bonuses are pretty good.  I&#039;m not sure any minimum wage job pays signing bonuses...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So they&#039;re making a difficult decision but the real fools are those voters who support politicians with beliefs/policies that are against their own best interests (and they don&#039;t realize it).  The biggest crime is that the Bush administration doesn&#039;t work to encourage economic development in hard-hit areas of the country... oh, but then he wouldn&#039;t have anyone willing to sign on to his military if there were actually good non-military jobs available for them...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;and people keep foolishly signing up to serve in the armed forces to go die and be mangled so Bush and Cheney can make their buddies rich&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that&#39;s a little unfair to the people who sign up for military service.  Many (if not most) of those people have no other options- they are from poor areas, probably with a baby on the way, ot newborn, and with no other jobs available to them they have to sign up.  Particularly since the signing bonuses are pretty good.  I&#39;m not sure any minimum wage job pays signing bonuses&#8230;</p>
<p>So they&#39;re making a difficult decision but the real fools are those voters who support politicians with beliefs/policies that are against their own best interests (and they don&#39;t realize it).  The biggest crime is that the Bush administration doesn&#39;t work to encourage economic development in hard-hit areas of the country&#8230; oh, but then he wouldn&#39;t have anyone willing to sign on to his military if there were actually good non-military jobs available for them&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Davebo</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137469</link>
		<dc:creator>Davebo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137469</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The same for the financial costs. Stiglitiz imaginary &quot;opportunity cost&quot; of 3 trillion notwithstanding. &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Forget opportunity costs and consider actual costs.    There&#039;s a new Congressional Budget Office estimate projecting that the bill for our Iraq adventure will come to $2 trillion by 2017.   And the costs don&#039;t end in 2017 even if we manage to extract ourselves from Iraq this year.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Those 30,000 disabled vets will still be drawing both disability and receiving free medical care and prescriptions for decades to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The same for the financial costs. Stiglitiz imaginary &#8220;opportunity cost&#8221; of 3 trillion notwithstanding. </p></blockquote>
<p>Forget opportunity costs and consider actual costs.    There&#39;s a new Congressional Budget Office estimate projecting that the bill for our Iraq adventure will come to $2 trillion by 2017.   And the costs don&#39;t end in 2017 even if we manage to extract ourselves from Iraq this year.</p>
<p>Those 30,000 disabled vets will still be drawing both disability and receiving free medical care and prescriptions for decades to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Slamfu</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137468</link>
		<dc:creator>Slamfu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137468</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the US devoted a fraction of its real power to this war, it would have been finished a long time ago.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And what would that have looked like?  Every Iraqi dead who didn&#039;t want us there?  There would be about 10 people left alive.   Americans are willing to make sacrifices when they are needed, but this was not such a time.  Iraq was no threat to this nation and we know it, hence you get limited support and people still going to the malls as was so condescendingly mentioned. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;To that &quot;you are all sheep and Bush needs you to keep the war going&quot; sentiment I would like to raise a middle finger and keep it there.   Newsflash, Bush doesn&#039;t need anyone&#039;s permission to keep this war going.   He&#039;s got all the authority and if somehow the Dems manage to cut off funds for the war they are spun as leaving our troops without ammo in the face of enemies.  The GOP wins another election cycle and the process continues on forever.  Bush doesn&#039;t care at all if there were 10 million people screaming for pullout camped outside the White House.  We all know he will do as he pleases for as long as he likes.  There is one and only one thing that stops this war, the Dems getting into the Oval Office and getting us the hell out of there. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So in the meantime, since we are fighting an enemy that is so much weaker than us we can stay as long as we like in their territory on the other side of the planet, and since my life didn&#039;t come to a screeching halt because of Bush&#039;s idiocy, and people keep foolishly signing up to serve in the armed forces to go die and be mangled so Bush and Cheney can make their buddies rich, I think I will go to the mall.   &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Call me when China wants to fight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the US devoted a fraction of its real power to this war, it would have been finished a long time ago.&#8221;</p>
<p>And what would that have looked like?  Every Iraqi dead who didn&#39;t want us there?  There would be about 10 people left alive.   Americans are willing to make sacrifices when they are needed, but this was not such a time.  Iraq was no threat to this nation and we know it, hence you get limited support and people still going to the malls as was so condescendingly mentioned. </p>
<p>To that &#8220;you are all sheep and Bush needs you to keep the war going&#8221; sentiment I would like to raise a middle finger and keep it there.   Newsflash, Bush doesn&#39;t need anyone&#39;s permission to keep this war going.   He&#39;s got all the authority and if somehow the Dems manage to cut off funds for the war they are spun as leaving our troops without ammo in the face of enemies.  The GOP wins another election cycle and the process continues on forever.  Bush doesn&#39;t care at all if there were 10 million people screaming for pullout camped outside the White House.  We all know he will do as he pleases for as long as he likes.  There is one and only one thing that stops this war, the Dems getting into the Oval Office and getting us the hell out of there. </p>
<p>So in the meantime, since we are fighting an enemy that is so much weaker than us we can stay as long as we like in their territory on the other side of the planet, and since my life didn&#39;t come to a screeching halt because of Bush&#39;s idiocy, and people keep foolishly signing up to serve in the armed forces to go die and be mangled so Bush and Cheney can make their buddies rich, I think I will go to the mall.   </p>
<p>Call me when China wants to fight.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137466</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137466</guid>
		<description>Komrad Marlow - I don&#039;t recall Vietnam being done on the cheap. At one time over 500,000 US troops were in country. Gulf War 1 used a similar troop level. What did Shinnseki say about troop levels?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Komrad Marlow &#8211; I don&#39;t recall Vietnam being done on the cheap. At one time over 500,000 US troops were in country. Gulf War 1 used a similar troop level. What did Shinnseki say about troop levels?</p>
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		<title>By: GeorgeSorwell</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137465</link>
		<dc:creator>GeorgeSorwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:24:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137465</guid>
		<description>Republicans have to kick the can to the next administration. How else can they blame everything on the next administration?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Republicans have to kick the can to the next administration. How else can they blame everything on the next administration?</p>
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		<title>By: ChrisWWW</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137464</link>
		<dc:creator>ChrisWWW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137464</guid>
		<description>Marlowe,&lt;br&gt;We also have the medical cost drain of approximately 30,000 wounded soldiers. And whether we like to admit it or not, the average soldier is worth a lot more now than they were in previous wars in terms of money and time spent on training.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Leaving aside opportunity costs, the real budget devoted to the Iraq war and veteran support is now estimated at around a trillion dollars. That&#039;s nothing to sneeze at. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;If the US devoted a fraction of its real power to this war, it would have been finished a long time ago.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;The &quot;war&quot; was over a long time ago. It&#039;s the occupation which has failed miserably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marlowe,<br />We also have the medical cost drain of approximately 30,000 wounded soldiers. And whether we like to admit it or not, the average soldier is worth a lot more now than they were in previous wars in terms of money and time spent on training.</p>
<p>Leaving aside opportunity costs, the real budget devoted to the Iraq war and veteran support is now estimated at around a trillion dollars. That&#39;s nothing to sneeze at. </p>
<blockquote><p>If the US devoted a fraction of its real power to this war, it would have been finished a long time ago.</p></blockquote>
<p>The &#8220;war&#8221; was over a long time ago. It&#39;s the occupation which has failed miserably.</p>
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		<title>By: Marlowecan</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137463</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlowecan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137463</guid>
		<description>Further...yes, 4,000 dead is a major sacrifice...but not by American historic standards.  The same for the financial costs.  Stiglitiz imaginary &quot;opportunity cost&quot; of 3 trillion notwithstanding. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;These are not &quot;total war&quot; costs.  (Seriously, if the Iraq War cost $3 trillion...then the opportunity costs of WW II would be...what...15 umpteen quadjizzilion dollars?)  If the US devoted a fraction of its real power to this war, it would have been finished a long time ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further&#8230;yes, 4,000 dead is a major sacrifice&#8230;but not by American historic standards.  The same for the financial costs.  Stiglitiz imaginary &#8220;opportunity cost&#8221; of 3 trillion notwithstanding. </p>
<p>These are not &#8220;total war&#8221; costs.  (Seriously, if the Iraq War cost $3 trillion&#8230;then the opportunity costs of WW II would be&#8230;what&#8230;15 umpteen quadjizzilion dollars?)  If the US devoted a fraction of its real power to this war, it would have been finished a long time ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Marlowecan</title>
		<link>http://themoderatevoice.com/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-137462</link>
		<dc:creator>Marlowecan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://themoderatevoice.com/war/iraq/withdrawal/18870/progress-report-dog-pony-show-day-2-kicking-the-can-down-the-road-to-2009/#comment-137462</guid>
		<description>I think this is a fascinating post, as Shaun highlights a key issue in his most provocative section:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;... the president was a coward, wrapping himself in the flag while never asking for real sacrifice, never leveling with the American people and most notably being downright eager to dump the entire tragic mess into the lap of his successor.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I am not sure about the &quot;coward&quot; slam...but the point here is undeniable.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bush has fought this war on the &quot;cheap&quot; (well, on the Chinese...who will want repayment at some point).  Interestingly, so did LBJ in Vietnam.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Perhaps both presidents felt Americans are not willing to make big sacrifices anymore. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Truman leveled with the public, of course, and was hammered by the polls for being honest.  Bush was vaguely dishonest...but was still hammered by the polls.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This has been a surreal war.  Oscars and red carpets and gossip blogs stateside...IEDs and head-hackers in theatre.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What was that memorable graffitti on that Marine station wall in Anbar:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a fascinating post, as Shaun highlights a key issue in his most provocative section:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230; the president was a coward, wrapping himself in the flag while never asking for real sacrifice, never leveling with the American people and most notably being downright eager to dump the entire tragic mess into the lap of his successor.&#8221;</p>
<p>I am not sure about the &#8220;coward&#8221; slam&#8230;but the point here is undeniable.</p>
<p>Bush has fought this war on the &#8220;cheap&#8221; (well, on the Chinese&#8230;who will want repayment at some point).  Interestingly, so did LBJ in Vietnam.  </p>
<p>Perhaps both presidents felt Americans are not willing to make big sacrifices anymore. </p>
<p>Truman leveled with the public, of course, and was hammered by the polls for being honest.  Bush was vaguely dishonest&#8230;but was still hammered by the polls.</p>
<p>This has been a surreal war.  Oscars and red carpets and gossip blogs stateside&#8230;IEDs and head-hackers in theatre.</p>
<p>What was that memorable graffitti on that Marine station wall in Anbar:</p>
<p>&#8220;America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war. America is at the mall.&#8221;</p>
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