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Religious Persecution, or Looking the Other Way? Isn’t There A Third View?

In Eldorado, Texas, there’s been a gathering up of women and children taken into protective custody from a commune that practices polygamy, one that claims LDS (Mormon) status, (Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints: FLDS) but long ago was exiled from the Mormon Church… Facts presented in affidavits brings again into the spotlight, evil toward children justified by wrapping it in robes of religion.

Lawyers for the commune are arguing that this was ‘an unlawful raid,’ “matching anything in Russia or Germany,” rather than a taking into protective custody 401 some children and girls, most under 18 years of age and more than a few either pregnant or with children of their own. Proponents of polygamy are outraged.

The alleged phone call that was the catalyst for this protective custody came from a girl who said she was 15, had been married off to a 48 year old man who raped her, abused her and that she had a child by him already and was currently pregnant again… She said other women in the community would hold her child, while her (their) husband beat her.

Where this girl-woman is among the 401 taken to shelter by protective services of Texas, is not clear. (Also accompanied by 130 grown women who volunteered to leave the commune, I think to be with the children.) It appears that the young caller’s husband, an LDS progenitor of babies, is also a registered sex offender, according to records, showing he was charged with trying to solicit a minor, and put on probation for three years.

It’s a long night, and it’s cold here in the Rockies tonight. Maybe that’s disturbed my outlook.

It’s not about polygamy between adults. It’s a set of different issues regarding children.

Remember all the arguments, for/pro, years ago about the usefulness and the ethnic roots that ought not be disturbed in female genital mutilation “rituals?” It was “religious,” they said. Therefore, somehow, supposed to be ok.

This ‘ritual’ is wherein a girl child between ages of birth to eight years old is held down and with an old knife or rusty razor to her tender parts has her clitoris sliced off and sometimes her outer labia also lacerated off, with the inner labia sewn shut except for…. good God Almighty, what are people thinking? Or not.

If you’re a man reading this, the equivalent is not taking the foreskin… which personally despite all mohels’ teachings and any physician averring “it doesn’t hurt” or that boys will grow up to be too stupid to learn to wash themselves properly, so “this must be done.” (what are people thinking? Or not.) … as a mother who labored to bring life into this world, who knitted up bones from my bones, blood from my blood, I am never, ever going to accept grown mens’ claims …in the clear face of seeing many a newborn boychild at hospital screaming bloody murder red-faced and sobbing themselves to sleep after ‘circumcisions’ that ‘don’t hurt.’

I don’t buy the bring ‘em into the world, and hurt them right away to make them tough. Boychildren deserve every consideration, as do little girls.

The equivalent of female genital mutilation, for a male would be severing the foreskin as far up as possible, and severing the corona and head of the phallus… including the nerve plexus at the base of the corona.

I’m not even a man and writing about this makes me cringe deeply. Whether these assaults are on a girl or a boy, it makes me think perhaps I might know why old Yahweh destroyed the earth and humans and just wanted to erase everything and start all over again.

And, why are these matters of harming children, and wrongfully assigning diabolical sexuality and projected sloth as the supposedly astute reasons to mutilate the children, why are these so often wrapped in religiosity?

These acts are not religious. They may have become ‘tradition,’ but that is different than religiosity… the heart of religion holds life as the most tender of all matters, and holds the weakest amongst us as worthy of utter shelter and protection.

The Texas LDS commune referenced here, is being run by Warren Jeffs’ younger male kin, because Mr. Jeffs is in prison for pressing an underage girl to have sexual relations with an older man (serving two consecutive sentences of five years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in Utah. He awaits trial on other charges in Arizona)… Jeffs seems reminiscent of Reverend Moon, Jim Jones and others who also orchestrated ‘marriages at whim’ amongst their ‘followers’…

The power lust and hunger that that infers, is mind-burning.

Given that each LDS man on the commune has about 50 or so children apiece, and given that according to one reporter, Mike Watkiss, who has covered similar communes of LDS for the last decade… the little boy children are used to farm way past 8 hours a day, 6 days a week, with ones as young as 8 years old running big equipment unsupervised.

I grew up in a rural outback; farmers and ranchers often had 8 and 12 children. Everyone worked. Hard. The difference was, the children went to school, made friends with many others, joined in the social events with others, and most were free to leave the family, and to love and marry –for good, bad, or ugly– whomsoever they chose, whenever they’d reached past 18 and 21.

It’s not only that those men who call themselves LDS and practice polygamy in Jeff’s group, press girl children to engage sexually with older men when the girls are at puberty, which is the onset of menses… today that’d be about age 11 and 12 on the average… it’s also that a girl that young, like a pup, or a young mare, or any young creature, has all kinds of hazards in too early pregnancies, that older women are far less subject to. Apparently, the girls’ tender ages, lack of complete growth of the pelvis and uterus, are not regarded.

There’s something that disturbs me even more about Warren Jeff’s LDS male copy-cats: I have this sickening feeling that the most vile thing this group may be up to is literally… I really can barely think/ write this… literally breeding children to systematically provide older men with virginal children. A child mill.

…In which especially the grown middle-aged and older women are as culpable in their own says, as the men. In court cases I’ve seen, it is a well-known facet of incest that the mother colludes by looking the other way, by not paying attention to her child’s life and moods… in her own way… she seeks to adapt to the predations, and to “normalize” the predation… by not intervening, by not protecting. Such a mother, after the sexual intrusion is exposed, most often will tearfully say, she didn’t know, didn’t realize it was wrong, thought the intrusion was ‘love.’

Can this really be religion? In any tradition? By my sights, adults who predate on children can say, My religion, my religion, my religion, I do this because I love, I love, I love the child… they can echo these prevarications all day and all night. But it still will not be celestial. No matter what, it will continue to be crime.

While some are charging the gathering up of the children and women from the commune as “unfair, polygamy is scriptural and just fine…” I’d just mention that it is also “scriptural” to murder your brother, make your father drunk to lie with your father in order to get pregnant, tell your enemies not to hurt you but take your concubines and rape them, to slaughter all the boy infants of the land. Just because it is in scripture, doesn’t mean it is holy.

In these matters, ethics is higher than the law. However, in our land and in other nations, often it is the law that is the only arbiter:

The following is a good insight into how ambivalent the process appears at that level: Andy Ivens at The Province writes about how the Canadian Government is grappling with polygamy:

The provincial government will have to decide whether to send to the courts the question of the legality of practising polygamy in Bountiful…

Leonard Doust, a senior member of the B.C. bar, agreed with the conclusions of a special prosecutor last year — that having the state pursue polygamy charges against members of the breakaway Mormon sect in the Creston Valley enclave near the U.S. border would likely fail.

Special prosecutor Richard Peck was appointed by Attorney-General Wally Oppal last year to submit a legal opinion on polygamy. Section 293 of the Criminal Code prohibits “any form of polygamy [or] entering into a conjugal union with more than one person at the same time.” The maximum penalty is five years in prison.

But Peck found the law likely would not survive a challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms on the ground it infringes the constitutional guarantee to freedom of religion.

Oppal asked for another opinion from Doust, who agreed with Peck. His view was released yesterday. “The serious misconduct in Bountiful will likely continue until the constitutionality of Sec. 293 is authoritatively decided by the Supreme Court of Canada,” wrote Doust.

Thus, wrapped in religion, predators thrive. Or can they, when it’s really about sexual predation of children– in the Name of the Father, or not?

  • Lynx
    I disagree Clarissa that something is not religion, or not holy, just because it is evil. That presumes that anything religious must be good, which is not the definition of religion. Religion is a set of beliefs and practices based on the belief in one or many supernatural entities. Things done based on a true belief in the religion are “holy” which is not synonymous to “good”, though people attempt to use it as a sign of respect.

    No I think that what those people do IS religion, a fundamentalist religion just like the one that wraps women in potato sacks and hoods, beheads apostates or hangs homosexuals. It’s religion, but it’s EVIL.

    The problem with the argument that pursuing this atrocious acts (and if you think baby mills is bad, lookup “babyland” the alleged cemetery where some escapees claim babies born with defects, due to incest, are buried after they are murdered) is an intrusion on religious freedom is the assumption that religious freedom trumps everything. It does not, if your religion mandates you to eat babies, you’re going straight to jail, sorry. Actually no, not sorry at all. If a man and three grown and fully aware women want to form a polygamous family (funny how it’s always several WOMEN to one man, never they other way around eh?) then that’s their business, but if you beat and rape children, if you have small boys working dangerous machinery, if you deny them education or medical care and even food (going hungry or being locked in closets were forms of punishment) you are committing child abuse, and should go to jail, even if you sincerely think your god thinks that’s as things should be.
  • newyorkdude
    Dr CPE opposes circumcision because it causes pain: "... I am never, ever going to accept grown mens’ claims …in the clear face of seeing many a newborn boychild at hospital screaming bloody murder red-faced and sobbing themselves to sleep after ‘circumcisions’ that ‘don’t hurt.’ "

    I have seen many a child cry in howls because the child was being vaccinated. Should we stop vaccinating children?

    I have seen many a child cry because they were being taken to school when they wanted to play. Shall we eliminate schools?

    I have seen many a child cry because they were being fed vegetables instead of candy. Shall we outlaw vegetables?
  • tarab
    If you’re a man reading this, the equivalent is not taking the foreskin… which personally despite all mohls’ teachings and any physician averring “it doesn’t hurt” or that boys will grow up to be too stupid to learn to wash themselves properly, so “this must be done.” (what are people thinking? Or not.) … as a mother who labored to bring life into this world, who knitted up bones from my bones, blood from my blood, I am never, ever going to accept grown mens’ claims …in the clear face of seeing many a newborn boychild at hospital screaming bloody murder red-faced and sobbing themselves to sleep after ‘circumcisions’ that ‘don’t hurt.’
    I don’t buy the bring ‘em into the world, and hurt them right away to make them tough. Boychildren deserve every consideration, as do little girls.

    Have you heard that circumcision has been proven to reduce the risk of a man contracting the AIDS virus through heterosexual sex? There is a campaign in Africa to have meen circumcised to decrease the spread of AIDS. If it means that a person grows up less likely to catch an STD because of having that procedure I think it's worth it. That skin being removed reduces the risk of microscopic tears happening during sex into which virus and bactria enter and through which diseases are spread. It is not the same as having the clitoris removed, that is done so that women will not enjoy sex and thus be less likely to cheat. Male circumcision is not just about a boy "cleaning" himself properly it's about helping to stop the spread of disease.
  • fincenMIB
    The hypnotic Voice of the Polygamous Prophet Warren Jeffs, one of 60 Audio's readers can listen to;

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fbudqrmFSDs&featu...

    What goes into planning the rescue of a polygamous teen runaway
    raw audio

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1xPJPHIx590&featu...

    Presidential Candidate John McCain took a pass on stopping abuse in Arizona FLDS Polygamous enclave 87 months before the Eldorado Texas RAID in the News today!

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dLfMbKawjwM

    WHEN A FINANCIAL TIMES INDEPENDENT JOURNALIST CONTACTED THE SENATOR REGARDING A CHILDRENS CEMETARY WITH 62 UNMARKED GRAVES;
    McCain failed to comment for my Financial Times October 2000 cover story on polygamy and his assistant press secretary, Crystal Benton, told me last year regarding the Babyland matter that his schedule was “too hectic” for him to make a statement, although she wouldn’t want it to be reported that the Senator had “no comment”
  • fincenMIB
    A poster on the Salt Lake City Tribune Newspaper Blog, challenged why I blame a select few, mostly attorneys for running interference allowing this group to build and grow. Though extremely controversial, I offer it unless it gets censored!

    Oleh Rumak with CBC TV in Canada an achor/producer was told by polygamous Mayor Dan Barlow to contact the Colorado City contract attorney to get an understanding of why polygamy was not being prosecuted in Utah. This signaled a role seperate than municipal law and that David was acting in part as a private councilor interested in defending the illegal federal statue under the Edmond Tucker Act.

    This brought information to bare, as Nuffer was Utah Bar Association President in 2000/01. Durring this time Tapestry Against Polygamy attorney DOUG WHITE had tried to seek disciplinary penalties again Mr Kingston another polygamist sect more abusive than the FLDS in the heart of the Salt Lake City Valley. Mr Kingston was well aware of Mr. Nuffers role as Colorado City Council and rejected Attorney Doug Whites complaint, from his own similiar conflict of interest. Had Nuffer imposed penalties on the Kingston polygamous per the Maryann Kingston BEATING case of a 16 year old child, Mr. Kingston would of attacked Nuffer on his connections to the FLDS and Rulon Jeffs at that time.

    From Spectrum Newspaper reporter Angie Parkinson, she explained as a good mormon they were to shun the FLDS and other polygamous via disfellowship. The concept as written in the LDS text, is to NOT DO BUSINESS with these sects. To do so is to take 10% of what you make and Pay it to your church through tithing. In escense its blood money or silence bought off. As Angie said, she at first was uncomfortable, because the church had said, NO ASSOCIATION. By doing business with polygamist you are financing there ability to grow and prosper.

    As long as it was a CASH COW, the church turned a blind eye to the DISASSOCIATION RULE. Where it gets criminal is all 3 of the attorneys mentioned were either Disctrict Attorneys elected or Deputy District attorneys who ethically knew the law in their former political lives. Eric Ludlow the Washington County DA after these men, but associated with them while they defended the FLDS interest, was called on the carpet when former Utah Governor Mike Leavitt nominated Ludlow for Judgeship. When asked if in 13,000 cases if he ever prosecuted a victim of polygamy, he replied no, stating he was never ask to! Troy Bowles a apostate from the Allred CULT, countered this claim with the Senate Judiciary Review Committee. He did so with a copy of a letter I penned to Mr. Ludlow in the Underage marriage of a 14 year old teen in Ruby Jessop. He LIED, the letters were sent USPO certified returned signed! It was the powerful influence of a team of attorneys that obstructed justice for the victims of polgamy.

    Routinely DFS St. George Supervisor Gene Ashdown was returning runaway children who were then forced into unwanted illegal underage unions, its a fact and those conversation with Gene were recorded, just go to YouTube and listen. Before Gene, it was Chuck or Charles Sullivan of DFS in the 1980's doing the same thing, but it required a cooperation that makes me think of the RICO Act and a "Organized Crime" faction that was circumventing the law and in the lawyers case for $ Money $!

    Flora Jessop in the news as a polygamy activist was counciled by Chuck at 14 after her dad Joe Senior was doing here. Mr. Sullivan devulged the entire councilling information to both the father, Rich & Fred Jessop and money changed hands. Flora was beaten for seducing her father and locked away for 2 mote years in Fred Jessops house, because once sexually active via her father, the FLDS wanted her married off. Via author Ben Bistline, on Flora's behalf, Ben went to Washington County Attorney Paul Graff, now with Mark Shurtleffs AG staff and his advise to Ben Bistline, for Flora Jessop, was to marry in an illegal underage marriage, in order to be viewed as an emancipated married woman, just so she could flee the union, without being forceably returned if she ran as a child. These kind of things make outsiders want to go to Utah and SMACK some one!

    About this time Deputy State attorney Jameson from Arizona DPS P.O.S.T. was investigating Sam Barlow the Colorado City Police Chief for violations of his oath of office. Sam had been a deputy sheriff for 18 years prior for Mohave County Sheriff. In his support, 87 witnesses presented affidavits endorsing Sam Barlow. Jim Gober of BATF, Phil Jordan of DEA, Bob Rehm of DPS Arizona who was the investigating agency! William Ekstrom Jr. the District Attorney of Mohave County, The Police Chief of Cedar City, numermous Sheriff Deputies who worked with Sam, a County Supervisor, a Utah State Legislator, etc. These were sworn affidavits for the court and YES I have copies!

    A victim hadn't a prayer, because with the lawyers help, they were allowing the FLDS to self govern themselves. You can pull an article from the St. George Spectrum, by Loren Webb on Sept. 2nd 1987 and read the WHO IS WHOM that supported the biased head law enforcement officer.

    By 2001 when Caroline Cooke ran at age 15, the current Washington County Sheriff Kirk Smith ordered the same girl return! Today in 2008 Kirk who I know and dislike, wouldn't pull that stunt today. In his parking lot I argued in front of a St. George Spectrum reporter, that returning Caroline to Marvin her father was a risk. Marvin was under investigation for INCEST at the time with West Valley PD after he married as his 3rd wife, Afton, his second wive Roberta's daughter. His only legal wife was Julie Darger. Warren Jeffs had been Grooming Caroline since the 2nd grade to take her as a future bride. It forced us to scramble and cut a deal with the childs Uncle Bob cooke in Colorado to undo what a CURRENT sheriff allowed!

    The system of low life power brokers, routinely violated the civil rights of victims, but needed the attorneys involved to do it. Actually Kirk smith as sheriff was just a lacky for those above him!

    In 1987 at the Colorado City School Graduation the keynote Speaker was Dixie Leavitt, later we would know him as Governor Mike Leavitts father. Of course Fred Jessop the one who locked Flora up and second Councilor to the prophet Rulon T. Jeffs, warrens dad, bought insurance from Dixie, oh what a surprise! When Governor Michael was still in diapers Fred's sister-in-law Fern Jessop use to babysit him. Lunches at the Sugarloaf cafe in Cedar City, put Dixie & Fred as pretty close! Why if you read theology books authored by Rulon Jeffs which we have, Rulon mentions Mr. Hatch, before he became a U.S. Senator. These names are in copyrighted FLDS books. Michael Leavitt nominated both Washington County DA Eric Ludlow and Colorado City Attorney David Nuffer to Judgeship, a reward for what?

    Then there is the Mountain Meadow Massacre issue of which Dixie was on the committe and his dad Michael was in an awful hurry to reburry the remains in the Shannon Novak dig that uncovered the real cause of death of most of these imigrants. For 150 years a small select group of POWER BROKERS determined far to much. In modern times, they prevented victims from seeking justice or escaping polygamy!

    Then in a town hall meeting in March of 2003 U.S, senator Orrin Hatch aggitated by two activist told a small crowd that if you had illegal acts occuring from the FLDS which he defended that night, that he wanted that evidence brought to him. Noe, that occured! Activist dumped on him and his attorney responded in writing seeking to insulate the senator, deflecting data to then Utah State Attorney Mark Shurtleff.

    When Jan Grahm was AG info was sent to her. At the 2000election info was provided to all 3 candidates, in Mark Shurtleff, Mike King and Reid Richards. When Mark was running info was channeled to Amy Isom of his campaign staff. His transition guy was Troy who was dumped on Next. On October 2nd of 2000 Ron Barton became the investigator and got warn out. Barton was replaced by Jim Hill. In Arizona it was Gary Engels who was the first and present investigator. Before Gary, the Arizona AG had Gibson, Pollard and Morrison and yes ALL the above got recorded!

    BOTTOM LINE, A GROUP JUST LIKE A MAFIA CONTROLLED THE POLYGAMY ISSUE AND PREVENTED VICTIMS FROM ESCAPING, MOST WERE DEVOUT MAINSTREAM LDS CHURCH MEMBERS & I SUGGEST A RICO INVESTIGATION UNDER ORGANIZED CRIME, because thats what it has been, with public officials and politicians controlling the outcome of 55 years of oversight!
  • fincenMIB
    The first post that drew this longer reply;

    Officially the church denounces the practise, members are to shun those who practise polygamy, unless they are your clients! From 1991 to 2001 Colorado City, City attorneys under contract were "Snow & Nuffer". Steven Snow then was in charge of the South America Missions program for the mainstream LDS Church. Today Steven Snow is General Authority, sounds like a promotion to me.

    David Nuffer the junior partner, was Utah Bar Association President in 2000 & 2001. He to was in the bishopric of the LDS church. In 2001, he too was promoted as former Governor Michael Leavitt made Mr. Nuffer a Judge. Both Nuffer & Snow were former Deputy County Attorneys for Washington County Utah.

    Nuffers former partner Ron W. Thompson is since 1981 the City Attorney for Hildale the twin polygamous city on the Utah side and Special Council. Thompson was the District Attorney elected of the same county in 1973-78, all 3 were well aware of the law when they conspired to protect the FLDS business, economic and civil interest of the sect.

    As families were being evicted with forceable detainers, do to resisting religious authority, local outside judges were refusing to hear the word POLYAMY in their court rooms. Mr Thompson was at the same time, 5th District Bar Association President, meaning he knew ALL the local judges on a first name basis!

    In 1987 the State of Arizona tried to remove the Colorado City Chief of Police, Sam Barlow and 87 witnesses filed affidavits to support the biased polygamist POLICE CHIEF. It was literally a WHO is WHO from local LAW ENFORCEMENT, County Prodecutors and a few Legislators.

    The reason why victims ran and hid, instead of seeking government help was obvious in the court case STUBBS vs JEFFS, that stayed in court 11 Years, between 1987 and 1998.
    All of this is accessible via a GOOGLE search, don't just take my word for it. I think it was conspiracy and I believe RICO charges are in order. This was ignored since the SHORT CREEK Raid of 1953, but the FLDS are just one of 100 groups, all-be-it, they are the largest!

    fincenMIB
  • tarab, that's a controversial point based on contested research. See HERE. Does circumcision reduce risk of HIV transmission to 0%? Of course not. The concept that it helps at all is based on flawed and frankly unethical research. I'll bet the men who contracted HIV from this research--both those in the "control" group and those in the circumcised group--wish they had been given condoms and instruction in their use instead of being research subjects.


    The United States has the highest rate of HIV infection and the highest rate of male circumcision in the industrialized world. Male circumcision, therefore, cannot reasonably be thought to prevent HIV infection.

    Telling undereducated African mothers that circumcision will reduce their children's risk, spreading praise of this half measure into the public there is dangerous. HIV is not something you want to "reduce your risk" of getting.

    Now back to the article at hand, the FLDS travesty seems to be nothing more than "church" sanctioned pedophilia, child rape and coercive imprisonment. For a frightening look at this "religion" see Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, which revolves around the brutal murder of a woman who left one of these "families" and of her unborn child. The beliefs of this sect of Mormonism are reprehensible, but even those of "mainstream" Mormons are pretty bizarre, considering the poor moral character of the founders of the religion and author of their scriptures.
  • fincenMIB
    Oh yeah, the Laferty Brothers... Grrrrr.....

    Yes Jon Krakauer was one of the most detailed writers I have come across. In chapter 4, in "Under the Banner of Heaven" I worked with Jon, chapter 4 was on Elizabeth Smart. Flora and I were ridiculed for stating the posibility that Lizzy was taken by a religious nut. Brian David Mitchell was that and more! My name is in the credits and I know most of his soures. I lent him 14 FLDS theology books so he could be dead on accurate about the FLDS beliefs.

    He is truly one of a kind.
  • runasim
    Rather than debate individual practices, I wish .all religious practices could be put to one standard: legality./ .
    When one individual practices polygamy, he is prosecuted. When a whole community does it, it's accepted.
    The obeissance to religion in terms of the law is nonsensical to me.
    I don't think a belief based on a religion should be given any more protection thant a belief based on personal conviction.

    Once we've put all beliefs and convictions on the same level, then only can we discuss rationally which practices should be allowed and which not, which sare beneficial and which not. .
  • archangel
    thank you all for your thought provoking and impassioned replies.

    Welcome New York Dude, I've not seen you before, and you are welcome here. Although I kinda would vote for outlawing okra, ok, ok, just kidding, I dont believe I inferred that vaccinations (although some have questioned some vaccines suspensions in a form of mercury... a different subject altogether) or going to school ought be eliminated because some children cry over them. Though I have a personal value against harming/ causing pain to infants unnecessarily, I was here writing in that part of the article, about how some put a religious gloss on matters of highly questionable and mutilative processes with regard to infants. I did also give my personal point of view, as you mentioned.

    Dear lynx; I understand the insistence, I think, that some groups who call themselves 'religious' put on their criminal beliefs... and that that, to them, is religion. But it isnt to you, other than that they insist so, is that what you mentioned? And it isnt to me. Nor many others. And I know from your other comments over the year I've been a coblogger here at TMV that you are a deep heart for others, and do not necessarily ever tie that to people being religious or not. Which seems just, to me.

    From a personal point of view, perhaps I have an idiosyncratic idea of religion. I do believe it is a guide to goodness, as long as criminal interpretations of 'what God wants,' are kept out of it, as well as personal desires to harm others masked as godly... I go back to its root meaning, and to the essences found in holy books (in between what I think of as over-writing exhorting to do harm to this tribe and that tribe) that offer that goodness, kindness, wisdom, and also speaking/ standing against those who do harm, even though I am only one... are the things to aim toward as hard and consistently as one can.

    I think most of us who are religious, fail at this every day. I know for myself, I've usually ruined it by being in a bad mood by noon on many days. lol. But, it is also, every morning, our goal, to come to the end of the day conscious in a form of love that is informed by our religious understandings.

    I say this in no way to proselytize nor convince nor contrast; only to say that's what spirit I hope to bring to my work if/ as I can.

    Lynx, here in the US, I'm involved with several layers of law, and am grateful for civil and criminal law statutes as well that lean into forbidding even 'religious' to harm children by raping and selling and abusing and killing them... and auguring the consequences if a person were to do so. Even all those layers of law do not prevent, but can only remand the guilty for consequences.

    no matter how convinced a 'religious' person is that their predation on a child is the godly thing, I'd say their idea of God is far too small... and I speak here particularly about Christians, as the whole point is a God of Love, and I'd question if a person disposed to harming people, just like any person of secular beliefs-- the man who took the name 'son of Sam,' comes to mind... have in fact a dementia that goes with 'functional' psychosis wherein the person is bombarded with quasi religious images has disabled the brain's ability to weigh and think rationally and in reasonable ways.

    and lynx, you are accurate about polygamy most often being one male and several females. Some would posit that submission is far more hard wired into females, and domination far more hardwired into males. This may be so, in some, but there is also an underground of dominant women who collect/ shelter groups of men as well, but it is not often called 'a religion,' rather an amatory and sexual lifestyle between consenting adults.

    And welcome fincenMIB, I have not read you before. A great deal to digest in what you wrote. Interesting note about Sen McCain's reluctance to comment. There's a story afloat about not wanting to comment about abuses by vigilantes at the Ariz. border also. One wonders sometimes how a Senator from any state decides what to attend to fully, and what to kick off with their hind legs.

    One of the matters that continues to be challenging for the courts... and for regular folks like us, is where to draw the line about religious beliefs and actual harm. The landmarks are STILL not settled, as in cases of withholding needed medical treatment from a child because the child's parents believe the child can recover from cancer through prayer alone. The government appears consistently leif to --not interfere, but intervene-- even then.

    For religious people, one of the questions is, Is this not also my brother, my mother? whether related by blood or not. It is often a hard question to answer. But sometimes, it is easy, but the action to follow the answer takes love. And guts.

    With regard to Mr. GreenDreams, I have to say I am just grateful that we can all be fellow travelers despite differences around the edges; there's a core that holds, like all the commenters here, who are first and foremost CLEAR in their regard and hope for the world. That means a lot to me in these times. Thank you Mr. GD for the reference to Krakauer's very interesting work, and for reiterating for the many-eth time about the 'circumcision is an AIDS preventative" fiasco. It is not anyone's fault that that quasi-data originally went out without being vetted and challenged, and the subsequent story about its actual effect not receiving much press.

    Dear Tarab, I hope you will bring more of your thoughts too. I read in your comment a goodness in wishing for the well being of others. That, is the magneto of it all. Some people might imagine that I read comments to debate. Far moreso, I read comments to learn, to engage, to find, to make bridges, to note and notice, to try to put my hopefully considered 2 cents into the world salad, to see what other hearts and minds and souls are made of. I also learn much about human nature from my commenters. You are always welcome in this sometimes moshing place. Hopefully at TMV we often have temenos too.

    And dear Runasim, thank you for your comment. The ‘law of the land,’ rather than ‘the law of men’ is precisely, as you show in your comment, the very issue of our times, whether it be about suspension of habeas corpus or waterboarding, or a ‘religious’ group attempting to ‘normalize’ the rape of children. You hit it dead on.

    Just my .02 worth to my commenters’ many dollars’ worth.

    with kindest regards,
    dr.e
  • archangel
    Dear all: Disqus is acting up and deleting edits to some comments, so just these two corrections here: "a dementia that goes with 'functional' psychosis wherein the person is bombarded with quasi religious images has disabled the brain's ability to weigh and think rationally and in reasonable ways."
    should be, 'images that have disabled the brain's ability"

    "It is not anyone's fault that that quasi-data originally went out without being vetted..."
    should be

    It is not a reader's fault that that quasi...

    thank you for forebearing.

    dr.e
  • TLCTugger
    ^^ If you’re a man reading this, the equivalent (to FGM) is not taking the foreskin ^^

    You can't *take* a foreskin, you have to amputate one to steal it.

    The main difference is that female genital cutting is illegal for 94% of the world's population. There are several forms of illegal female cutting which are inarguably much less severe than any foreskin amputation.

    The amputated foreskin included over half the male organ's sensual nerve endings including the exquistely specialized pleasure receptors of the frenulum.

    Foreskin feels really good. HIS body HIS decision.
  • DannyHaszard
    The Jehovah's Witnesses have settled lawsuits alleging church policies protected pedophile men who sexually abused children for many years.
    Frederick McLean is one of the most-wanted fugitives in the United States
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/
  • frankmaui
    I agree with LYNX.....he is the man!

    However, I do not agree with the blogger that infers that one's life should always be lived strictly according to the "legality litmus test" or that all issues should be framed within the legality viewpoint..."Should I take this action...is it legal?"

    One blogger stated that none of this would have happened if Texas would have just enforced existing Polygamy laws a long time ago. Simply enforce the legal standard. The blogger's standpoint was that due to the simple fact that Polygamy is against the law is enough and no one should look any farther than that fact.
    I disagree with that way of thinking....I do not believe it is always best for a citizen to form the basis of how to live his/her life by blindly following all laws thereby assuming that you will always be *right *true and *good.

    In my opinion, the answer to avoiding the Eldorado dilemma is NOT the simple past enforcement of existing anti Polygamy laws.
    That viewpoint is akin to stating that it was okay that women did not vote in 1918 because that was the "Law" before the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment in 1919...an amendment that gave women throughout the nation the right to vote.

    My Point: Not all laws are good laws and a "law", in and of itself, does not always provide the moral grounds to justify a certain action or inaction.

    2 cents posted

    Frank from Florida
  • frankmaui
    My suggested solution:

    Step 1. Change the law and Legalize Polygamy. Women...stop using the abuse of underage girls to control adult men and women that willingly choose to pledge their lives together...Stop masking your fears of your man or husband asking you if it is okay if he adds one more hen to the roost....If the USA truly purports to be a Judeo-Christian society, then crack open your bible and admit...allow...(maybe even bless) the true Judeo-Christian historical perspective. Having more than one wife was common and apparently blessed by God.

    So the questions begs...who are you people to decide if Mary and Sue, whom are both 18 or older, pledge their life to Tom? Tom does not care about your "ick " factor...Tom is happy with his ick...and his life and just wants the freedom to live his live according to his Maker and partner with consenting ADULTS.

    Step 2. Enforce laws that protect children and minors. Prosecute those FLDS members that violate young girls under the age of 18. Religion nor judeo-christian values condone the abuse of those who are unable to speak for themselves...and young teenage girls (12-17) are not ready to speak for themselves....18 years seems to be a reasonable amount of time for a person to *begin* to make mature decisons about life.

    3. Recognize that the FLDSers communal living, values, and practices (minus the child brides, welfare fraud and genetic issues...hey, can you pronounce fumarase deficiency) appear to be much better than the vast majority of other american lifestyles I have witnessed my past 40 some odd years...the fact is....those people look very healthy...happy....and loved and I feel a little bit jealous of the love and support and nurturing all those kids apparently receive growing up...

    Is it really so terrible to remove kids from all the sex, violence, pornography, "mean girl" pressures, fast food, selfish society that we all have to deal with every day and try to clear the gunk out of our heads???

    Yes, get rid of the child molesters and underage brides...but also be willing to admit the good things these FLDS people have in their lifestyle and be open to a way of life not exactly the same as your own.

    By the way...I live in Florida and I am not a mormon or FLDSer and I do not believe in Joseph Smith in any way. But I am a person open to "what works" and I ask you people to try to be objective and not too much controlled by what present day "society" and "culture" controls over your life...think about it

    Frank in Florida.
  • archangel
    I'm sorry Frank, I cant agree that all things considered this particular FLDS group "appear to be much better than other american lifestyles." As I noted in response to you at another of my articles on this FLDS group, where you posted the same set of comments as here, this article is about breaking the law. Yours is an interesting take nonetheless, and I hope to write more about how those who stand by while children are intruded upon have their own hand in harming the children.

    dr.e
  • brightpaul
  • CStanley
    Wow, lots of tangents and good discussion.

    Lynx, if you ask most adherents to religion to define it, you'd get something much different than your dictionary definition of belief in supernatural. The whole point of religious belief is almost always to look toward a higher power that we believe is good, and lots of major religions use that standard and our ability to reason what is good to make sure the two are in congruence. I think we have a right to then reject those who call themselves religious if they're not following similar standards. Admittedly it's not quite as rigid or foolproof as the standards in the natural sciences, but it's still the same principle by which you'd reject pseudoscience for not adhering to the scientific method.

    On the FLDS issue, I personally am repulsed by the allegations but I think there's still an issue of legal search and seize protocal, standards of evidence before taking children away from their parents, etc. I'm not sure how to satisfactorily resolve those issues and still protect children, but I think we need to be careful not to take such sweeping measures without more hard evidence in hand (mind you, I do believe that such evidence probably exists- but I don't think there should be a shifting standard simply because we have hunches.)
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