I agree with Shaun for that particular statement and putting it into context with what he was saying at the time.

I agree with elrod because McCain is more of the same old Bush drivel on this issue. If this were a “real” war we would have an enemy and set goals of winning. We don't really have an enemy (the government in Iraq was installed by us so we are not fighting a “political” enemy- another country that can actually surrender). Our enemy, depending on which way the coin lands when Bush tosses it is either the terrorists or (as we say last week in Basra) the “criminal” elements in Iraq. We are staying in Iraq to “keep from losing” and “because we owe the troops who lost their lives” to not fail. We're not in a war where we can ask the government of a country to surrender to us, as has been the case in all other wars (and how this conflict started out- with the overthrow of Saddam).

In order for us to get to the point of being able to peacefully keep the troops in a country, that country must be beyond fighting and ready to pull together and rebuild. That's not Iraq. The Iraqis are happy to use our troops as their personal shields in their own civil war. And the Iraqis are happy to siphon of oil money and take billions of dollars in bribes from us.

So anyway, I agree with elrod because McCain doesn't have a plan to win (can't even articulate what winning looks and feels like) and the fighting continues for as long as the Iraqis want it to.

Now if the country were actually pulling together and wanting to rebuild, that's one thing. But we invaded them and they see us as the enemy. The majority of Iraqis want us out. So McCain's comments just show that he is out of touch with reality.

If our presence in Iraq actually kept the peace (and we were not occupiers inflaming Iraqis and causing more violence), then I'd agree with McCain.

Bush won because people thought he was… likable… and compassionate… and most important that he would keep us safe (especially important for his re-election). Even if voters had misgivings on all else about Bush they thought Bush would keep the country safe. They may not have liked the war.. but Bush proved he had balls by making the tough decision and going to war (personally I think he's a coward and a true leader does not show power by being a bully).

Anyway, Lit3Bolt is right- a lot of people will vote for McCain because he's a white guy. And he's likable in a rascally/mavericky sort of way (which I can't help but wonder if he was a bully in high school, but now people pass his… adventures… off as him just “being a boy”).

Because McCain has military experience people will feel safe with him at the helm.

Forget logic… we've seen that voters don't use it when voting for their leader. Most voters look at one or two issues, they want to feel secure and will go with what they know from past experience. A white guy. Forget that he comes with flaws… we all have them (that's how the voters will rationalize a vote for McCain). Forget that McCain's agenda is essentially Bush's… in the general election McCain will say what is necessary (just like Bush) and then once elected will do whatever he as a maverick wants to do…. voters don't look too closely at these things. They want something simple that they can understand.

I'm not saying McCain will win, but I can totally see it… and what's most disturbing is the number of people who support McCain right now. Speaking of voters wanting to keep things simple…. voters are fed up with the Dems' infighting and want the race to be over so they see McCain as a sure thing while the Dems fight… and this democratic fighting just does not make America safer. It also shows the Dems can't pull it together. So many people have made up their minds on McCain right now and will tune out the next 6-7 months of squabbling… and vote for McCain in Nov.

With all this I don't think Hillary can win against McCain, she's been around, has a lot of baggage and many people- both Dems and Reps. just don't like her. Obama has shown that he can energize a broad range of people and promises a break from the past. So I would say that Obama has the better chance against McCain… but it's far from certain.

“Looking back, do you think the United States did the right thing in taking military action against Iraq, or should the U.S. have stayed out?”

3/15-18/08
Right Thing 36%
Stayed Out 59 %
Unsure 5%

and

“Do you think Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11th, 2001, terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon?”

3/15-18/08
Yes 28%
No 58%
Unsure 14%

Given the closeness between the two polls, I have to wonder what percentage of people who supported the war also falsely believe that Saddam Hussein was personally responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

As much as I respect McCain and his forays across the aisle, he is still traveling a path I don't want to follow.

I do not see why people believe that McCain will win. He is not a very good campaigner and will probably commit at least one gaffe a day during the general election.

If you say that voting for McCain should be depressing for Republicans, then who should they be voting for?

If you think people vote logically and in their own self interest, then allow me to say,

BWA HA HA HAH AHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!

Seriously. It's a charmingly naive and refreshing position to take. Of course, all you get when you use logic is sullen heel dragging from voters, as some people love their cognitive dissonances so much they refuse to let them go.

Here's why people will vote for their respective candidate.

McCain (Maverick, stubborn, grandfatherly) “I will vote for McCain because he don't take no guff from Democrats OR Republicans. That makes me a free thinking maverick too.”

Obama (Young, liberal, hope/change) “I will vote for Obama because I want to have hope again. Also, it proves that I don't hate black people.”

Clinton (Experienced, familiar, fighter) “I will vote for Clinton because I loved the 90's. Also, this proves I am a feminist too. Also, I want to spite Obama supporters.”

BUt of course, don't forget that you'll have much of the electorate breaking to McCain in the general just because he's white and has a penis. (Talk about a campaign slogan!) SO, your intellectual arguments have come to naught, as people will vote for whatever makes them FEEL good, no thinking required.

So in November, people will look at the candidates and likely see:

a) grandfatherly old war hero
b) scary black man with a funny name
c) Lady MacBeth

I think McCain will win, depressing as that is (and should be for Republicans too). I was talking with my intelligent friend the other day (smarter than I am) and as we started discussing politics, she said she was likely to vote for McCain. My jaw dropped and stayed there as I listened to her quote every media talking point about McCain, word for word. The media love him and are doing their damnedest to help elect him.

Great example of rationalization, I'll take each part separately;

The democrats will lose and they have to rationalize the loss, not the millions who will vote for McCain even though he is disengaged from reality – perfect example of rationalization of your wrong decision onto others.

Blame the Democratic message not the messenger, A beautiful twist on the old “blame the messenger” theory, you've now blamed the “message”. So now its the Democratic message that is to blame, even though millions of Americans (2006 elections) have walked away and will walk away (2008 elections) from the Republican message on economics, domestic policy and foreign policy – great example of rationalizing your inability to admit you are supporting policies which have proven wrong for the country.

Finally, you've saved the best for last; so let me get this straight, it is Ok to lie (in the future please use the word lie instead of misled, its a more honest description) us into a war and then even though that war has proven to be wrong on every level we must continue with that war because the small group that led us into it believes we must stay until it is won – wow, that is a perfect example of rationalization, I want you when the time comes explaining my misdeeds to St. Peter at the pearly gates.

Definition:

Rationalize – To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for one's behavior

Also, you'll see more people claiming to be Republicans when the term Republicans actually begins to mean something positive again.

I Miss Republicans

His serial gaffes over Sunnis, Shiites and the ambidextrous role of Iran in the conflict are troubling in and of themselves

It's okay Shaun, you can call them lies

Will they be able to understand that, even though the war may have been started under false pretenses, even though the aftermath to the invasion was handled poorly and even though many more Americans will lose their lives and more national treasure will be spent, that regardless of those circumstances; Americans want to stay until the war is won?

PWT,
Funny that most polls actually show that you're wrong. It looks like a majority of Americans think the war was a mistake, and want our troops out within a year.

Let’s use Shaun Mullen, a columnist at The Moderate Voice. as an example. I enjoy Shaun Mullen’s work, particularly when he is writing about Iraq. His work is well researched and insightful. I always appreciate it, even if I disagree with it. But he …

No, they will surrender to their rationalizations and, as the insane man knocks his head repeatedly on the mirror trying to climb out of his cell, will try again in four years to convince the American people that surrender is the best option.

Are there any moderate-right voices on this site?

I apologize for the confusion with the dates, the way it is written it seems you were saying that you would have voted for McCain in 2004.

However that being said it still peeves me that you as late as 2004 were rationalizing voting for McCain. By what standard were you doing so; he by then had lost any semblance of “independence” from the Bush administration, his views on the war were well known and they were wrong and out of touch with reality, his economic policies were wrong and also out of touch with reality. So my point is still valid, people like you are quite comfortable with rationalizing a bad decision, so again please stay home, we don't need another 8 years of a rationalized presidency.

casualobserver,

The impact my question has on reality is that I live in the reality based world and the last time a group of people voted based upon their “rationalization”, we unfortunately got 8 years of “Bush World”. You see how that worked out.

Also, I am a Clinton supporter, my question was asked so I can try to understand the thought process of people who would vote for someone who so out of touch with “reality”.

A better question what what will the conservative voters do after the Republican Party has totally collapsed? Will they start voting in the Democratic primaries since those will be the real election or do they find away to divorce themselves from politics like many of the ethnic communities have done in the U.S.?

Why?”

Better question……….what slightest impact on reality is brought by a half dozen Obamaniacs discussing this?

Please reread what I wrote, which is that a year ago (not 2004) I thought I might be able to vote for McCain despite some differences that we have on issues that I care about.

Given the concerns evinced in my post, I am no longer able to make that claim.

Shaun and others like him have to rationalize their possibly voting for McCain, and one of the best ways to do that is to rationalize his “100 year” comment by saying it was taken out of context. However, I agree with you McCain has to know “that Iraq is not going to be pacified like post-1953 South Korea any time soon” and if he doesn't he is probably suffering from early onset Alzheimer.

Question for Republican / Independents who are now considering voting for McCain:

Why?

Why, when his economic plan makes absolutely no sense, particularly now that we have entered a recession.

Why when his supposed “maverick” status is shown to be false with his campaign being staffed and funded by lobbyist.

Why, when his supposed “independence” is shown to be false by his campaign total embrace of everything Bush.

Why, when his views on the most important foreign policy issue this country has faced since Vietnam (possibly even WW II) has shown itself to be repeatedly incorrect and most damaging out of touch with reality.

Why vote for this man?

This is not snark and please do not take this as a condescending question, I truly want to know, why are you considering voting for John McCain?